(Archive) [DTW] Aggro Loam

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Originally Posted by zulander

When will maelstorm pulse be legal? I think it's worth testing in my seismic assault slot

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:eyebrow:

For serial?

Seismic Assault isn't removal, it's burn. Burn can be removal, but it's also a win condition that doesn't require the red zone. That means that it gives the deck reach ("You're at three life after my last attack. I could attack you again next turn, but that gives a full turn to interact with me and my board, so instead I'll just burn you out and win now.") and a way to win outside of the red zone if you can't get a guy to stick, for whatever reason.

EE is mass removal that can potentially hit multiple permanent types, making it much different in terms of function than green Vindicate. EE set to two can hit both Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance in one activation, and it can also wipe out untargetable creatures or potentially take huge chunks out of a Merfolk or Elf player's horde. Maelstrom Pulse doesn't do that.

Pulse is closest to Terminate because it's a narrow targeted removal spell designed to clear out annoying blockers or potentially harmful utility guys, and it should be under consideration for that slot. However, Pulse isn't clearly better because, while it has a lot of flexibility in terms of what it can hit, it's competing for a spot in an already crowded point on your curve, and it's only a sorcery, making it much easier to play around. Terminate's appeal is that it both smooths you curve and can be played in response to things.

It could also potentially have a spot in the Wish board, but I'm not sure what it would replace or what strategy it would answer.

Is it me or is Burning Wish becoming very slow for the 10/10's and the 12/12's that are coming down turn 2/3? Seems like we're better off playing 4 loam main and some extra removal in that slot.

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Originally Posted by zulander

Is it me or is Burning Wish becoming very slow for the 10/10's and the 12/12's that are coming down turn 2/3? Seems like we're better off playing 4 loam main and some extra removal in that slot.

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Burning Wish for targeted creature removal probably isn't a good call to begin with, precisely because it is slow. Burning Wish is better used to provide power in the mid- to late-game by giving you options (such as a Wish into Worm Harvest if your opponent is able to come up with a way to slow down Crusher offense). It's also useful for finding utility cards and or more expensive mass removal spells.

If you're Wishing for targeted creature removal all the time, that would be a good indicator that something is wrong with your build.

I'd say that because of progenitus, an edict would more likely than not need to be said additional removal if you want to make up for the loss of flexibility from removing wishes.

Dreadnaughts have been in the format for a while, plus EEs and terminates seem pretty adequate. I'd be more concerned about the counterbalance that they are playing the turn after. I am kind of new to playing with this archetype though, so I could be way off on that. I find that I have enough tools to kill dreadnaughts, it's getting around a CB set at two that pisses me off.

I checked a few pages back and I couldn't really find anything on this deck here:

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// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Savannah
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [R] Badlands
3 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau
3 [EVG] Tranquil Thicket
2 [EVG] Forgotten Cave
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [GP] Skarrg, the Rage Pits
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
1 [DD2] Mountain (1)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [DK] Maze of Ith

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [MOR] Countryside Crusher
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [10E] Seismic Assault
2 [TO] Devastating Dreams
4 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [TSP] Krosan Grip

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 2 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TSB] Gaea's Blessing
SB: 1 [MI] Seeds of Innocence
SB: 1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [CFX] Banefire
SB: 1 [ST] Armageddon

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Maybe I didn't look back far enough, but how do people feel about this build? I found it on DC recently and it has proven to be pretty flexible. I do miss confidants in lots of matches, but Knights tutoring for utility lands has actually surprised me to be very, very useful. I actually didn't expect to use their ability, but I find myself using it a lot.

I have actually been wishing that there was a nantuko monastery because I have been seeing a lot of stuff with standstills lately.

Either way, I thought the build above looked pretty interesting/flexible. It's actually pretty fun too.

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Originally Posted by Mordel

Maybe I didn't look back far enough, but how do people feel about this build? I found it on DC recently and it has proven to be pretty flexible. I do miss confidants in lots of matches, but Knights tutoring for utility lands has actually surprised me to be very, very useful. I actually didn't expect to use their ability, but I find myself using it a lot.

I have actually been wishing that there was a nantuko monastery because I have been seeing a lot of stuff with standstills lately.

Either way, I thought the build above looked pretty interesting/flexible. It's actually pretty fun too.

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That mana base looks atrocious.

The toolbox with Knight seems good, but I'm still partial to blue for Intuition and Academy Ruins. The total lack of disruption main bothers me, though. Mana denial is good, but you really need it to start on turn one or two to be effective, and with more decks running basics now it's getting harder to Waste lock people.

I am positive that you have more experience with the archetype than I, so I have to ask; what disruption are you talking about? Chalice in the main deck or discard?

I know that deckcheck isn't the holy grail of good decks or ideal builds, but I don't see a lot of discard in the more recent loam decks that placed well, so I am a bit confused.

The mana base hasn't bit me in the ass yet, but I have yet to become comfortable enough with the deck yet to go in a mini with it. I could end up unhappy yet.

I haven't been able to wastelock someone yet, but the wastelands have been a handy part of the landbase for sure. I am liking them so far. Even when I played white stax religiously, wastelocks were very hard to come by.

To be completely honest, the biggest problem that I have with the build is the devastating dreams. Out of ten matches or so roughly, I have used them once and it was as a final six points of damage. I am starting to think that maybe terminates or some kind of removal may be better in their place.

Out of curiosity: what kind of manabase would you go for?

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Originally Posted by Mordel

I am positive that you have more experience with the archetype than I, so I have to ask; what disruption are you talking about? Chalice in the main deck or discard?

I know that deckcheck isn't the holy grail of good decks or ideal builds, but I don't see a lot of discard in the more recent loam decks that placed well, so I am a bit confused.

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I meant Chalice, sorry. Discard is generally bad outside of fast decks.

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Originally Posted by Mordel

To be completely honest, the biggest problem that I have with the build is the devastating dreams. Out of ten matches or so roughly, I have used them once and it was as a final six points of damage. I am starting to think that maybe terminates or some kind of removal may be better in their place.

Out of curiosity: what kind of manabase would you go for?

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The most obvious thing would be to cut Flagstones for another Savannah. You can't use Flagstones with Knight, so it basically only exists as a way to mitigate some of the symmetrical effects of Dreams. Axe it.

I know this will sound odd given the :r::r::r: mana costs the deck has, but it's probably much more important to hit :g::w: early than red. Doing so gives you most of your beaters and all of your mana fixing, which in turn negates most of the problems you would associate with running a low density of red. Furthermore, most of your red spells are late-game cards, so there's really no reason to race for red early when Knight can do a reasonable impersonation of Crusher for a few turns. With that in mind, I'd cut a Plateau to go to 3 Savannah, 3 Taiga, 1 Plateau.

Dreams has been mediocre for a while now, I think. It can be ridiculous if you can sneak it through your opponent's counters, but Mind Twisting yourself into your opponent's Force of Will is just painful. However, spending cards to bait out the counters make Dreams smaller and thus less effective, making it generally weak. Given the total domination of blue-based decks in the current meta, Dreams is much more conditionally useful than it was previously, and as such should be relegated to the Wish board (home of all of this deck's "conditionally useful" cards).

Dropping Dreams lets you consider Chalice for the main. I'd drop the one-of Krosan Grip (you have no way to find it reliably, and only having one of a card you can't tutor for feels awkward) and run three in the main. Chalice is very strong.

Also, you probably have more hours logged with this deck than I do. I haven't played it at all since right before the Grand Prix, and even then I was only playing it to help another guy test while using my unorthodox build. I'm flattered that my advice is sound enough that other people think I have a bajillion hours playing it, though. :wink:

EDIT: I do have lots of experience playing various types of Loam decks, though, so it's not like I'm just pulling things out of my ass. Life from the Loam is one of my favorite cards, if not the favorite card.

EDIT 2: I just realized your black source is a Badlands. Try testing Bayou instead, green is your most common color in terms of number of cards of a particular color (14 green versus 11 for red and 4 for white). Also, if you don't want Chalice main for whatever reason, you have no reason not to run Swords.

I'm going to try out your suggestions for the manabase because they sound pretty...well...sound. What I like about badlands is that it fixes two colours that are basically splashes simultaneously. I am going to try to run it and a bayou simultaneously I think because there have been times when I wished I could fetch a bayou.

The extra sideboard slots opened up got filled with a vindicate and two additional grips.

29 lands + 4 mox daimond = not playing enough good cards. Honestly you don't need that much mana, even if you're trying to pump knight/crusher.

Try this mana base: 29 mana producers
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Mox Diamond

I noticed that the only black in your deck is the stronghold, so you only need one dual that can tap for black because you have 4 moxen main and 7 fetches that can get that dual which comes to 12 ways of getting the black mana you need for the lone stronghold. Also, I like a 3/3 split between knight and terravore since terravore tramples. Add in a 4th crusher and your creature base will be nice and tight as well. So here:

Creatures: 14
4 Goyf
4 Crusher
3 Knight
3 Terravore

That leaves you with 17 free cards. I'd suggest:

4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
3 Vindicate
2 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives

Vindicate can help mana screw your opponent or blow up that counterbalance. Removing the lone krosan grip was inevitable and as stated earlier D. Dreams just isn't getting it done with the amount of blue played.

Here's the list altogether now (doesn't it look so much nicer?)
Mana: 29
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Mox Diamond

Creatures: 14
4 Goyf
4 Crusher
3 Knight
3 Terravore

Other: 17
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
3 Vindicate
2 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives

Cutting down on the land toolbox makes Knight a mediocre Crusher that can occasionally act like a fetchland. If you're going to do that, you might as well max out on the number of Terravore and decrease the number of Knights, or drop Knight entirely for a more useful card like Eternal Witness (double Vindicate is pretty ridiculous, I hear). The whole point of having the land toolbox was to enable Knight's ability. Dropping that makes Knight incredibly mediocre.

Vindicate main is also probably a bad call. Your three mana slot becomes very crowded at that point, which that version of the deck can't sustain without extra mana acceleration. Your curve is:

0cc: 6
1cc: 0
2cc: 11
3cc: 15

That doesn't look "so much nicer", considering the fact that your only acceleration is 4 Mox Diamond. If you want to run that kind of curve and not be slower than all fuck, you need to cut the number of three-drops and add some more two- or one-drops: Exploration, Swords, Dreams, maybe even Tidehollow Sculler.

In short, you missed the point of what he was doing: he built his version to get maximum advantage out of Knight's ability. In your build, Knight is just a mid-sized dork that taps occasionally to help you out of mana screw.

Which one is better remains to be seen, but given the success I've had with a land toolbox, I'd be willing to bet on Mordel's build. Vindicate is lackluster in this deck anyway because you're closer to aggro-control than control (where Vindicate shines).

EDIT: I should reiterate my view that you either build your deck to take advantage of Knight, or you run a card that sucks less. As a straight beater, Knight is worse than every other big guy you've got. This deck doesn't really have slots to waste on a ho-hum guy. See: my posts arguing against Knight however many pages back.

lol... rtfc. Completely missed the point of Knight in there, didn't realize it said to get any land, I thought you sacced a land to get a forest or plain and not the other way around. I'm also with you on the vindicate point, I guess he could play confidant or swords, I just thought vindicate could have been another option.

Chalice is probably better, but on top of that; in your list there is no land toolbox as mentioned by A_Z. A lot more would need to get tinkered with in that list than vindicates.

The singleton lands in the original list posted didn't make you remotely curious/suspect as to what Knight did exactly? Really?

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Originally Posted by Mordel

Chalice is probably better, but on top of that; in your list there is no land toolbox as mentioned by A_Z. A lot more would need to get tinkered with in that list than vindicates.

The singleton lands in the original list posted didn't make you remotely curious/suspect as to what Knight did exactly? Really?

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Lol, when you're as busy as I am and as tired as I am, you don't really have time to wonder. Although I should have actually read what knight did instead of see these words: Sac land forest plains. I kind of filled in the rest in the wrong order lol.

I think this new M-Pulse can really be an interesting addition to Loam, it's a nice maindeckable answer to Counter "Annoying" Balance. I'm trying this list now:

// Lands (26)
3 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures (11)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore

// Spells (23)
3 Life from the Loam
2 Devastating Dreams
2 Seismic Assault
4 Burning Wish
1 (2) Maelstrom Pulse
1 (0) Banefire
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Worm Harvest
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt

Banefire should really be in the sideboard. It's good as a finisher against some decks (like Landstill or NLU), but it's also pretty lame if you're playing it for any other reason. Having it as a Wish target ensures that you have it when you're ready for it, without wasting a draw before that.

Only two Pulse seems ho-hum. I'd drop Dreams from the main and go up one each on Pulse and Crusher: Pulse is really versatile and having the extras helps you get it on time, and Crusher is your strongest big guy. Dropping the random one-of Terravore for a Witness might not be a bad idea either.

I remember a while back, someone attempted to run a Goyfless Loam deck for a few days and then wrote it off as inferior to a Goyf'd Loam deck.

Has anyone aside from me done any extensive playtesting without Goyf in Loam? I've been running Goyfless (main deck - still have them as an option in the sideboard) since a week before GP: Chicago and haven't actually noticed a weakened game against Aggro and have seen an improved game against Control (since I replaced Goyf with Vexing Shusher main deck).

Honestly, in my humble opinion, Goyf really is very unimpressive in Loam since he does nothing except be moderately big and cheap (and for one mana more, you can get creatures that get much bigger and Trample or thin your library).

On another note...Maelstorm Pulse does look like a good Wish target for some situations - but definitely only a Wish target.

Wow, Maelstrom Pulse is EXACTLY what this deck needed. Holy shit, it is Vindicate without the hastle of splashing white (who cares if you can't kill lands .... you have DD for that). Something like this should be ridiculously good:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Countryside Crusher
3x Terravore
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Seismic Assault
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Devastating Dreams
4x Mox Diamond
3x Life from the Loam
4x Burning Wish
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Badlands
3x Taiga
1x Bayou
4x Wasteland
3x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Forgotten Cave
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Forest
1x Mountain

Sideboard
1x Life from the Loam
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Reverent Silence
1x Shattering Spree
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Worm Harvest
3x Krosan Grip
5x meta slots

I am going to begin testing this immediately!

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Originally Posted by Solaran_X

I remember a while back, someone attempted to run a Goyfless Loam deck for a few days and then wrote it off as inferior to a Goyf'd Loam deck.

Has anyone aside from me done any extensive playtesting without Goyf in Loam? I've been running Goyfless (main deck - still have them as an option in the sideboard) since a week before GP: Chicago and haven't actually noticed a weakened game against Aggro and have seen an improved game against Control (since I replaced Goyf with Vexing Shusher main deck).

Honestly, in my humble opinion, Goyf really is very unimpressive in Loam since he does nothing except be moderately big and cheap (and for one mana more, you can get creatures that get much bigger and Trample or thin your library).

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This is correct, I think, but probably dependent on your build. The pros for Goyf are that he lowers your curve for Confidant and may or may not help you against combo by giving you fast offense to back up Chalice. Either way, I don't care, because I run Exploration for consistent turn-two Crushers, and no Confidant. I cut my Goyfs back in November out of necessity (sent them to yawg07 for alteration) but found I didn't end up needing them in this deck.

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Originally Posted by Solaran_X

On another note...Maelstorm Pulse does look like a good Wish target for some situations - but definitely only a Wish target.

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This is also (probably) correct. Pulse is better in Goyfless builds, but at the end of the day it's a utility removal spell that won't always be that great.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

This is correct, I think, but probably dependent on your build. The pros for Goyf are that he lowers your curve for Confidant and may or may not help you against combo by giving you fast offense to back up Chalice. Either way, I don't care, because I run Exploration for consistent turn-two Crushers, and no Confidant. I cut my Goyfs back in November out of necessity (sent them to yawg07 for alteration) but found I didn't end up needing them in this deck.

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I'm definitely not worried about my curve for Dark Confidant. With 25 lands, 4 Mox Diamonds, 4 Chalice of the Void, and 2 Engineered Explosives - that's 35 no-damage draws right there. And since I swapped the 1G Tarmogoyf for the R/G R/G Vexing Shusher, my curve actually remaining the same (you can see my entire deck in the pictures in my signature).

I've found that a turn 1 Chalice for 1 followed by a turn 2/3 Countryside Crusher applies just as much pressure as a turn 2/3 Goyf right away (a 3/3 v. average 2/3 or 3/4 - maybe a 4/5 in some outstanding situations), and actually applies more pressure the further the game advances (between my Wastelands, my Dredging, my Cycling, and my Dreams). Even in that aspect (early pressure), I don't view Goyf as being integral to Aggro-Loam (and I definitely feel that cutting Terravore and replacing him with another creature [presumably Goyf in my build] is a huge mistake since Terravore is your guaranteed damage every turn).

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

This is also (probably) correct. Pulse is better in Goyfless builds, but at the end of the day it's a utility removal spell that won't always be that great.

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Same can be said of a lot of our viable Wish targets, but it definitely warrants testing in the sideboard.

Banefire (previously Demonfire) is a source of inevitability that helps me a lot in stalled games, but it loses this inevitability when in the SB. There's no reason to run it as just another regular win condition, for this you already have your fatties and Assaults. Landstill and Counterbalance.decks are huge contenders i my local metagame, and I play Banefire to force through CB or another kind of counterwall with more ease, something we aren't suppose to do when relying on B-Wish. And it's never a dead draw, if you draw it before you're able to send it to the dome (of if you doesn't need it anyways), it'll always be a fine removal spell.

Previously I cut all Terravores from my list and played a single Witness, but she prove yourself very situational for me. There's enough redundancy and even a bit of digging in the deck to make Witness less than a necessity. For the exact same reason I'm cutting Nostalgic Dreams from the wishboard in favor of M-Pulse. I put the singleton Vore back to at least get an edge in the mirror, where it really shines.

And don't get me wrong, but Exploration is terrible, terrible in this deck. Among some other things, you don't need so much acceleration in that kind of controllish shell, its sinergy with DDreams+Loam is far less impressive than its anti-sinergy with Chalices and Explosives and, last but not least, it's just an enchantment that does nothing to you other than be a bad Birds.