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Go out and test the mirror with that build. Either that person was incredibly lucky, and dodged playing the mirror every single time, or they played against poor quaility players. You can do well with that build; I've done well with Elves, Junk Pile, and a host of other bad decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
I'm not argue the validity of Counterbalance in Threshold, but I will say that CB is warranted in some locations more than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goblin Snowman
While Lovino is a fantastic player (top eighting 17 of the last 20 tournaments he participated in, all with that list) his deck is highly metagamed: the Emilian metagame is *ruled* by Landstill, particularly Deed-based Landstill. RW Goblins is big, and among Threshold variants four-colour has grown in popularity.
JESUS! This is what I've been trying to say the whole time! My list is based on my meta. And I place Top 4 almost everytime (usually 1st or 2nd). There are maybe two other Thresh decks in my meta, and I dominate one because of the huge numbers of misplays he makes and he runs 0 CB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
Anyways, grats to Lovina.
@ Goblin - if your meta is packed with Thresh, yeah, you're right that BTS is jank. Just understand that CB is useless against 75% of the cards in mine and BTS really tears a lot of other decks to shreds.
That's the point. And this will be my last post in this thread since people are not capable of argueing efficiently. BTS is a very nice card against several deck I already mentioned. In the past, Landstill and Rifter for example was big. Threshold was also present and there it always won the mirrormatch since BTS delivered extra damage, was independant from graveyardhate and smashed enemy Mongeese.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
I still think that it's whack to say that the build will 100% lose against the mirrormatch when playing against Counterbalanced builds.
But ok, even if it does, some matchups like Landstill are more favourable for the BTS build. A fact that was always undermined because people are always affixed on single matchups (which explains the idea of running Price of Progress and Blood Moon in the Sideboard which are dead against other matchups than 43Land).
Also, that 43Land will draw out of Armageddon is also... Hm, I would just say that you should play Armageddon when you are in a advantageous boardposition which is already fullfilled when you got a big Goyf or Mystic Enforcer. After Armageddon he's vulnerable to Daze/Forces again which can act as Time Walks if the opponent tries to recover with it.
The BTS build's matchup against Goblins is slightly more favourable than the Counterbalanced one (simply because we have less dead cards in the maindeck preboard and got more efficient cards postboard).
I understand the thought that the UGR Build like the Hatfield's one (or just the same as UGW but with Bolts and Dragons) is meant to be "just" a solid allrounder like UGW is, but with better SB-techniques as UGW against Goblins.
But I think it's all a matter of your skill/playstyle and how you get your role against several matchups.
But, I somehow don't understand the sense of this thread in the first place if builds that don't look like the Hatfield's one are immediately considered as trash even though they got several T8 appearances (even more than than the Hatfield-Thresh-Builds). Like it was the ne plus ultra of UGR builds, which it is definitley not since the maindeck is not different from the UGW one's.
It's just ignorant to consider a build which is metagamed on a foreign/different meta trash just because it loses the mirror. And also the fact that you don't care about the european meta is somehow... very disappointing.
Anyways, I'm now convinced that you are REALLY not capable of discussing a deck that doesn't look familiar to you, even though it had some success and saying that the pilot was a luck0r or the opponents were n00bs.
I really have the impression your keyboard must look like this:
http://utopia.duth.gr/~nm4434/Chatter's%20Keyboard.jpg
Anyways, my last post concerning UGR in this thread.
Agreed about the whole inability of some people on this argue effectively. I don't give a damn (maybe half a damn though) about how present Rifter was pre-Goyf. The meta has been completely reshaped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
As do I. By sticking a Counterbalance, one will almost always win though. You can figure out the percentage of games if you really want, but I'd estimate it to be about 70/30.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Landstill, especially the Deed-based Landstill running Nantuko Monastery, if fairly unaffected by Burning-Tree. Yes, he's better than Dragon in a vacuum. The problem being, that if Dragon is on the board, he will fly over the 4/4 First Strikers and avoid the mass blockings of Decree/Factories. Burning-Tree, over time, facilitates a large burn out, whereas Dragon simply wins the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Blood Moon is good in the mirror, against Landstill, Fish, Affinity, Zoo, Stax (to an extent, as Stax is an incredibly large catagory, and there are builds that ignore the effects and builds that openly weep at them), and a good deal of decks that are 3 colored (and every deck that is four colored).
They have recurring Wasteland and Port. If you hit four mana against them, you will likely try to Geddon, as it's unlikely you will stay there for any amount of time. Not only that, but having your whole plan reliant on them not drawing Maze of Ith or Tabernacle is poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Agreed. This is the one matchup where you can present a solid argument as to why BTS is better than Dragon, the argument in Dragon's favor being that he can fly over the massive hordes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
I don't care about which way you want to build the deck, I'm personally going for the deck that will do the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Everything I have said has been based off the mirror. Look at every statement I have made, and most of them have been based around winning the mirror match. Hatfield's list destroys other Threshold decks, and any deck based around abusing Goyf. Also, Counterbalance wins so many games you shouldn't against alot of decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Yet you don't give a flying fuck about the American meta? :cry: . I made the statement that the person running that build either dodged the mirror all day, or outdrew his opponents. If no one else that day ran Threshold, props to him for making a good metagame call. I assumed other people would run what to alot of minds is the best deck in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
I have never made the statement, "noob", or used 1337speak. I'm mildly disappointed you resorted to such blatantly false and childish attempts at mockery. All of my cursing has either been to emphasize a point, or pepper a statement. There is a difference between, I don't give a hoot, and I don't give a flying fuck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Again, a shamefully childish end to you. It's a shame, we were improving each other's understanding of the different builds of Threshold and our different metagames. Now, with Adan gone.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Everyone else presenting decent arguments;
Thank you for telling me you truthfully never play a competitive mirror match. Much could have been avoided. I still believe Dragon is superior to BTS, but that's for later after someone has responded. Can we all agree on a few things at least about Threshold?
1) Serum Visions should never be used before Ponder
2) Counterbalance is good in the mirror
3) Fire//Ice is a bad 1 for 1 against Goblins, is dead against Landstill, and is bad in the mirror. (Ditto Magma Jet).
4) Daze should be a four of.
5) Running two to three Creatures/Scepters past Goyf and Mongoose is standard. These creatures are commonly BTS or Dragon
Does anyone have any problem at all with that list as it stands now?
CB helps a lot against opposing Thresh. Getting one to stick with Krosan Grips and no 3cc is fail though. Having just 3-4 CB is good. SDT is vulnerable to Needle and Grip(both are pretty common in the mirror, since that's what you're looking at).Quote:
Originally Posted by Goblin Snowman
Maindecked Activated Abilities in Landstill: Fetchlands, Mishra's Factory, Nantuko Monastery, Pernicious Deed, Wasteland and Faerie Conclave. Assuming 4-5 fetch, and 3 per other(it's obviously give and take) that adds up to around 16-21 activated abilities. So having a creature that is decently sized that punishes (with a ping) the use of ~25-33% of their deck and swinging, that damage racks up pretty quickly, I'd say. Flying overhead is nice though :)Quote:
Landstill, especially the Deed-based Landstill running Nantuko Monastery, if fairly unaffected by Burning-Tree. Yes, he's better than Dragon in a vacuum. The problem being, that if Dragon is on the board, he will fly over the 4/4 First Strikers and avoid the mass blockings of Decree/Factories. Burning-Tree, over time, facilitates a large burn out, whereas Dragon simply wins the game.
Stax is a pain. Chalice@1/2 is basically deadly. Trinisphere hurts. This matchup is a bitch. I personally wouldn't consider running Moon simply because I wouldn't want to draw into Mountains forever, but I could see justifying it to lock out some decks.Quote:
Blood Moon is good in the mirror, against Landstill, Fish, Affinity, Zoo, Stax (to an extent, as Stax is an incredibly large catagory, and there are builds that ignore the effects and builds that openly weep at them), and a good deal of decks that are 3 colored (and every deck that is four colored).
Wasteland and Ports and Maze are punished by good ol' BTSQuote:
They have recurring Wasteland and Port. If you hit four mana against them, you will likely try to Geddon, as it's unlikely you will stay there for any amount of time. Not only that, but having your whole plan reliant on them not drawing Maze of Ith or Tabernacle is poor.
Goblins is already hurt so bad by Goyf. And though BTS has a big butt and hits Wastes, fetch, and possible Ports, I think that finishing an opponent with the Dragon in a ground lock is what Thresh will want to do here. In the mirror, the Dragon can single handedly win games, true. But he's kinda wimpy after a Crypt(and dies to an opponents Goose if they retain threshold)Quote:
Agreed. This is the one matchup where you can present a solid argument as to why BTS is better than Dragon, the argument in Dragon's favor being that he can fly over the massive hordes.
I think that's what we all want. You are more focused on beating the mirror than some of us though.Quote:
I don't care about which way you want to build the deck, I'm personally going for the deck that will do the best.
1) Yeah. I agree after testing it a week ago.Quote:
Everyone else presenting decent arguments;
Thank you for telling me you truthfully never play a competitive mirror match. Much could have been avoided. I still believe Dragon is superior to BTS, but that's for later after someone has responded. Can we all agree on a few things at least about Threshold?
1) Serum Visions should never be used before Ponder
2) Counterbalance is good in the mirror
3) Fire//Ice is a bad 1 for 1 against Goblins, is dead against Landstill, and is bad in the mirror. (Ditto Magma Jet).
4) Daze should be a four of.
5) Running two to three Creatures/Scepters past Goyf and Mongoose is standard. These creatures are commonly BTS or Dragon
Does anyone have any problem at all with that list as it stands now?
2) Good, but if they get it down, it shouldn't be an autoloss. Spell Snare, Grip, 3cc or 4cc creatures can slide through.
3) Goblins - it sucks. Landstill - use it for the tap/draw. Mirror - Tap opposing Goyf and swing, or swing into their Goyf, and Fire 1 to it and 1 to the face.
4) Still debatable IMO. Topdecking Daze lategame makes me sad without a Force to pitch it to and is really bad in some matchups.
5) Almost every list runs a total of 10 creatures. Few run 11.
Here:
Creatures: 13
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fledgling Dragon
Control: 10
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
Burn: 8
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
Cantrip: 11
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
Lands: 18
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills
Fix it.
Depends on the goal I suppose...just beating Thresh game 1, or beating anything else game 1. But first:Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
-4 Magma Jet
+4 Fire//Ice
If you have a high Threshold meta, going CB+Top in the main is an ok choice. I personally removed Top from my list because it made those random Pithing Needles in game 1 from Faerie Stompy and some Thresh lists pretty good. And since I pack no removal for artifacts in the main, I just decided to remove it.
Other options? Spell Snare. Nails CB, Goyf, Fire/Ice. If they run Dryad or Bear, those too. It stops Confidant, Life from the Loam (for a turn), Sinkhole, Chalice@1, and so forth. But, against a lot of decks, it's not that great. So I think that Snare should be boarded(unless of course there are a lot of situations in which it'd be good).
Also in beating the mirror, I think that Fledgling Dragon is the better option.
So focus on mirror:
-3 BTS
-3 Top (because I dont like it)
+3 Predict
+3 Spell Snare
Otherwise, if your focus is beating anything else:
-2 Dragon
-3 Top
-3 CB
+2 Counterspell
+3 Predict
+3 Stifle
That's what I'd do at least.
I'd reccomend running 3x Needles and the 4th Daze if you were looking at a Meta of Goblins and Landstill, as they're both good there. Fire//Ice is still bad in almost every MU, whereas Needle turns off Factory/Deed (which is so dangerous)/Monastery/Decree/Dragon against Landstill and Vial/Wasteland/Incinerator (and a few others, depending on build + board position like SGC or Fanatic). Just throwing that out thereQuote:
Originally Posted by chokin
It comes down to you ever playing against decks similar to you or not. You should still be boarding at least three CB, and starting Top unless you see Needle in every MU (and if those MU are the mirror, start CB). Top is an amazing long casting cantrip that gives you an artifact to Predict away. With the low reliance on your graveyard size, I'd rather have Top in most situations than any other cantrip.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
Spell Snare....you've stated you don't plan on running the mirror, but want to run Spell Snare? It's not that amazing Pre-Board, and if you were going to run it, CB would be better in most MUs (Breakfast being debatable, but since resolving a CB and keeping Vial off the table will win against them, I'd rather have that than the one mana counterspell)Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
I think he's the better option, period. I can think of maybe two decks were BTS is even comparable. Most of the time, Burning Tree will eat Incinerators, get stuck because the other player has larger creatures (or lots of them) and will deal about 5-6 to your opponent and 3-4 to you. I don't like that. Burning Tree wrecks 43 Land, and stops Breakfast, and really nothing else amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
Don't drop Top. Ever. It is insane when you realize you can effectively get a Ponder every turn and out of ever Fetchland. There isn't a massive drawback to it, aside from when opponents are running. Do a reasonable amount of testing against a wide variety of decks, and the games you win because you were able to Top every turn will be far more than the games it was "bad" and forced your opponent into one for one-ing.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
I'd disagree here. I'd recommend keeping Top in every MU regardless of whether the mirror was a concern or not. Ditto Dragon; Really, why is there a question? To my knowledge, people have stopped running jank like Crypt or Leyline due to Goyf growing off both Graveyards, so the GY hate argument holds no water anymore (In America, if it's different, speak up!). Dragon is a 5/5 Firebreathing, Flying for RR2 - BTS is a 3/4 with a semi-relevant ability that hurts you for 2-5 in each game for 1/R/G. So for one more mana, I get +2/+1, Firebreathing, Flying, and the self-inflicted damage taken away?Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
First of all, you're assuming that Goblins and Landstill run rampant in area. It's more like every deck in the DtB Forum(minus Aluren and SuiBlack) and some other tough matchups (Stax, Faerie Stopy). Activated abilities are ALL OVER where I am. BTS is a 3/4 regardless of cards in the graveyard. He munches Geese with or with or without Threshold. Even though he hits you for 2-5 every game, he usually hits the opponent as much if not more. With a Thresh opponent running Top, that's an extra 3-5 on top of fetch, Force, my burn spells, and possibly a hit or two from a creature.
And everyone here in my state runs at least 3 needles SB. Maybe 1 main depending on the deck. The other Thresh decks don't run Top. One runs 2-3 Needle main, and the others run 3 in the board.
Also, if BTS punishes Top when I'm trying to beat the mirror, why is it so bad? I try to play 1-2 spells a turn, which means 0-2 activations. Plus the opponent wants to utilize Top anyways, thus activating it at least once a turn. BTS goes through CB most of the time. What's not to love? Dragon does the same, but I'm not bent on beating Thresh in game one since there is really only one other good Thresh player here(who plays many other decks usually).
So if I don't fear Thresh, and my meta allows BTS to kick ass, why not run it over Dragon? I'd like to. But right now, with the way everything is, it's not the time. I really DON'T like using BTS over Dragon. But with the way everything is here, it's the better option.
Then is running BTS any better than running Werebears?Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
Needles have been kinda a semi-dead card now... Everybody knows there are better cards for the MUs where Needles are good in.Quote:
And everyone here in my state runs at least 3 needles SB. Maybe 1 main depending on the deck. The other Thresh decks don't run Top. One runs 2-3 Needle main, and the others run 3 in the board.
What else punishes Top and Counterbalance? That Dragon thingy.Quote:
Also, if BTS punishes Top when I'm trying to beat the mirror, why is it so bad?
I think most players who see BTS in play with Top are more likely to spin the Top less until it is removed. If you claim they're wasting their card quality, then it's usually their mistakes for running less cantrips.Quote:
I try to play 1-2 spells a turn, which means 0-2 activations. Plus the opponent wants to utilize Top anyways, thus activating it at least once a turn. BTS goes through CB most of the time. What's not to love? Dragon does the same.
I would agree with this completely. No argument here.Quote:
but I'm not bent on beating Thresh in game one since there is really only one other good Thresh player here(who plays many other decks usually).
Dragon evades... that is huge... Listen, if they printed a Red Shriekmaw, I'd definitely run it over Dragon, but FtK sucks against Goyf. The whole point of running Dragon is to break stalemates... Shriekmaw does that, but it's not Red.Quote:
So if I don't fear Thresh, and my meta allows BTS to kick ass, why not run it over Dragon? I'd like to. But right now, with the way everything is, it's not the time. I really DON'T like using BTS over Dragon. But with the way everything is here, it's the better option.
@ both::confused: Why can't I use both? This a hypothetical list so it doesn't really matter, but to advance the argument/ deck, tell me why anyways. I realize that the Dragon's firebreathing is an activated ability, but when they take 7 and I take 2, should I really care? If I'm going to play red, I'm going to do it because it allows me to pull damage out of nowhere, letting me win faster and apply more pressure. Dragon, Burning-Tree Badass and burn, all of which are exclusive options to red, should let me do this with little to no trouble.
@ Adan, who PM'd me about this: If the CB engine turns into 1cc cardless Force of Wills, that's fine with me. I've adapted the list by running less fetches and little to no activated abilities.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again now: the reason that RG stompy is worse than NQGr (although 'Zilla Stompy is epic) is the fact that I can control the game-state rather well while still only doing a little less damage. This fact, lo and behold, is why red is threshold's (misnomer) "Pressure color", trading white's superior control for the ability to break off 20-odd damage in a shorter time frame.
Sidnote: Scry >/= spliting damage. Scry>/= Ice. Scry is good by it's lonesome and gets better with Couunterbalance. The end.
Top is good by it's self, and better with Counterbalance. It should be used even if you use Burning-Tree Badass.
In closing: Dragon and Burning-Tree Badass are not mutually exclusive, Sensei's Divining Top and Burning-Tree Badass are not mutually exclusive, and fast damage and controling the board state are not mutually exclusive (Yeah, that was just a good excuse to say Burning-Tree badass three times in a sentance, but it's all still true).
The Top 8 is in for the 1/5/08 2 Beta Tundra Windter Event and looks like both Lam Phan & Dave Caplan top 8'd with UGR Threshold + Wasteland. There was 49 people at this event and below is what they were playing. Granted, I don't have the exact deck, but it is the basic contents. It didn't contain CB/Top or BTS.
Tarmogoyf
Nimble Mongoose
Trygon Predator (Sideboard)
Force Of Will
Daze
Lightning Bolt
Fire/Ice
Rushing River
Stifle
Ponder
Brainstorm
Portent
Wasteland
Tropical Island
Volcanic Island
Fetches
I'm pretty sure that you could stick Tarmogoyf and Force of Will in a deck with about fifty two islands and manage to do alright. All those results speak to is the ability of Threshold to win in environments that pack a lot of hate for them, or to win with subpar builds due to the sheer power of the core deck.
I still think that people are looking at Counterbalance/Top engines in the wrong way. People want to look at it and see a malleable Chalice at anything in any situation, but that just isn't likely. Think about when you're playing Threshold and your opponent casts a spell. You are instantly faced with several options. You can: Counter the spell, which is a good option is you are sure that you will be unable to deal with it later; Let the spell resolve and kill it with removal later; Ignore the spell and either block it with creatures or just honestly ignore it because it doesn't matter. All CB/Top does is remove this choice making process about a lot of spells. Suddenly you aren't faced with this process every time a spell resolves, and even if it is a bad spell that your opponent is casting, you are then able to save your counterspells, removal spells, or blockers for things that you do care about, because every individual card will have to be dealt with in one way or another, and this enables you to have a deeper pool of resources than your opponent.
Counterbalance isn't there to annihilate some matchups and clutter the board and your hand in others. Counterbalance is always good because it wins attrition wars, period. A nice feature of it is that it can cancel interactivity completely and just plain win games, but that isn't the best part. It lets you counter the stuff that you normally wouldn't worry about countering, the small things that incrementally can make a difference in the long run, but don't warrant an individual answer. Think about all that before you say it's bad.
On a related note, I would run Top even without Counterbalance. It's just too nuts to not have, even if you want to run Burning-Tree Shaman.
please fix it
4-tarmogoyf
4-nimble mongoose
2-fledgling dragon
4-force of will
4-daze
4-top
3-counterbalance
4-lightning bolt
2-vedalkin shackles
2-eng explosives
4-ponder
4-brainstorm
2-magma jet (or fire/ice, cant decide)
4-tropical island
4-volcanic island
2-wooded foothills
2-polluted delta
2-flooded strand
1-island
1-forest
1-mountain
Sideboard:
4-hydroblast
2-pithing needle
4-pyroclasm
4-grips
1-???
please help :)
You have 6 threshold creatures and only 8 cantrip effects that go to the graveyard. While threshold is a secondary goal for running cantrips you still want to be able to reach it consistantly. I would go -1 Top, -2 Magma Jet, -1 Shackles/Explosives +4 Predict. As for the manabase i think you need the 2nd island more than the single mountain and you could cut a Trop for another Foothills.Quote:
Originally Posted by quietmage
Again, I inquire: why is everyone insisting that the deck only run 10-11 creatures when the deck wants to (for lack of a better phrase) thrash the piss out of the opponent? Why is this the general concensus? What am I gaining by diluting my ability to deal 20 damage in a quick, timely maner? BTS can fuck couch like no other when not attacking, and Dragon fucks couch like no other when it does. Considering that neither are really bad in either role (just more effective at one than the other), and they aren't horrible together, why in God's name shouldn't I play both to increase my ability to deal that 20? This is why I would play red, right? To have more agressive options, is it not? Since the conception of NQGr, the reason to run it has been the more agressive tertiary (Dragon) and the more agressive removal (Lightning Bolt, Magma Jet, Fire// Ice), yeah? Is the exact same not true now? Why would I want to try to maintain a white level of control when it has always been openly admited that I can't? I'm fairly sure that the reason that NQGr is the better choice to take into a random metagame would be because it can end matches faster, matches that would generally be close or slightly unfavorable because of the long-windedness of the matches. If I'm off target, let me know.
In all honesty, can you really say that Red has better sideboard options to White? The only advantage I could see would be the ability to run REB and probably Price of Progress (I would think that this would be much better tech than Blood Moon against Landstill). Really I think that they both have lackluster sideboards, but that's just me.
On a side note, has anyone tested Pyrostatic Pillar for use against storm combo or is Stifle just the better option all around?
On an entirely new topic, has anyone thought about splashing black into the deck for a better sideboard and Terminate (replacing the secondary burn)?
How about Pyroclasm and Ancient Grudge. When playing the white splash, what white spells do people really run it their boards these days? Not many, maybe 0-3.Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
In that first sentance you may have well just said ZOMG, Goblins!!!!! The only situation outside where Pyroclasm has any relevance outside of that would be storm combo finishing with Empty the Warens, which could either be stopped with countermagic or Stifle'd, both with pretty much the same measure of effectiveness. maybe you could argue that 'Clasm is one-sided board sweep when paired with a Crypt, but one of those, if not both, are going to walk into a counter or a CounterTop activation. Ancient Grudge, I would think, would be out-classed by Krosan Grip, unless you had Stax/ Affinity running rampant in your metagame, but in that case I would rather have Shattering Spree, which is essentially doing the same job as Serenity, just a tad bit less voulnerable and not on the same scale (or even close early on, since the deck only runs 4/5 red-producing lands).Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal