Those are ok because they are not blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Edit:
You know what would be really hilarious? With Cavern of Souls being released, I wonder what drama would happen if WotC unbanned Goblin Recruiter...
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Those are ok because they are not blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Edit:
You know what would be really hilarious? With Cavern of Souls being released, I wonder what drama would happen if WotC unbanned Goblin Recruiter...
I hope they do it. This and Mental Misstep. Keep the format balanced!Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Imo the brainstorm and miracle is quite overrated tbh. A 2 card combo to take an other turn imo isnt that overpowered. However personal tutor for the red wheel miracle might be really strong for a some storm decks. We will see.
Reforge the Soul is just going to be a better Diminishing Returns for TES.
That's all it's going to do to TES. It's better than Diminishing Returns. They both give the opponent a new hand but...
Reforge the Soul doesn't exile any of your library and doesn't cause anyone to shuffle libraries. That sounds like an upgrade to me. It's one more mana, but it's more on color. I don't think TES generally cares about the miracle.
If anything is going to be scary broken with this card, it's going to be a new deck.
You are the one who clearly has made up their mind. I have tested this card myself and was really not overly impressed with what it did. You have no decklist to back up what you are saying, no results, no hard data. What you do have is a bunch of hypotheticals and your word that this card is broken. Maybe you should go read what Gerry T wrote in his article about the card, or how about what Owen Turtenwald said in his article this week. (spoiler alert: they say it's bad) If you want to actually want to change peoples opinion you are going to need something better then "because I say so."Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
The irony is overwhelming.Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
LOL. Are you stupid. I have tested this card and posted about it, others have tested this card and posted similar results. Unless you have some different data this is all we have to work with.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Resorting to personal insults. Your ability to create convincing arguments is astronomically amazing!Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
You still have nothing to support your argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I have one ready. Pretty sweet stuff. Not sure whether I will get the cards for it though. Getting playsets of Personal Tutor and Temporal Mastery seems like quite an investment for something I'm not completely sure of... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
And neither do you.Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
I have testing results, so do other people.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
No you don't. If you had them, you would have shown them already.Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
Edit: Either post your results or quit lying.
Drago, you seem extremely sure of your position in this matter. Is there some reason you haven't bothered to test it yourself?
I posted it in the other thread, dontbiteitholmes has tested it, Jamaican Zombie Legend has tested it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
EDIT:
One Round of testing 3 games v.s. Junk:
Game 1 - I have a Jace in hand and I TM on my draw step and do some other stuff, go to my next turn. My opp misplays and puts in batterskull on the end of my first turn.
Second Turn, I play Jace and bounce his BSkull token and beat down with a 3/4 Goyf. I would not have one without his misplay.
Game 2 - This game was a blow out. I just tempoed way ahead and killed him quickly. Pitched TM to force a removal spell.
Game 3 - I took 3 extra turns, lost horribly. The first extra turn I took I setup with ponder and passed then my opp killed all my creatures. I was stuck exploring rather than having to hold a second TM in my hand with no Brianstorm. The other two were irrelevant just trying to buy time before I lost to Thrun.
Notes: Card is awful in your opening hand, even with Brainstorm. Being able to shuffle away two cards with Brainstorm is one of the reasons decks play it, when the extra card you get off of TM is one you didn't want it kind of negates the positives.
- I am. Of course I could be wrong and I'm not so arrogant to pretend that I couldn't be. However, I'm also not going to pretend that I have hours of "testing" results and then proceed to troll people by not posting those results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
- There's no real way to know how good it will be in an actual tournament setting. The keyword in this topic is speculation. I'm clearly speculating. Everyone else is (unless they are trolling with "test" results, which are dubious at best).Quote:
Is there some reason you haven't bothered to test it yourself?
However, the fact that TM is very similar to TW, even with it's (minor) hoops, is enough evidence to not let it be legal. I think there is nothing wrong, at the very least, being wary of cards that are variations of Legacy banned cards. I've provided my reason throughout various topics.
Link to your post please. I'm genuinely interested.Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
I edited my other post to include it. That was just one of many I don't really think typing up the rest of my notes is worth it all the other rounds were quite similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
So three games with Junk is your idea of testing?Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
I think testing a card in only three games against a single deck is a pretty awful way to determine if ANY card is good/bad/bannable.
Just like how Ancestral Vision, Lotus Bloom, Mox Opal, Wheel of Fate, and Infernal Tutor were all so broken they should have been banned preemptively too, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
From what I've seen, so far all you've said is that it's kind of like Time Walk, which is not by itself a decent argument to take a step that's been done with only two cards in the history of Magic.Quote:
I think there is nothing wrong, at the very least, being wary of cards that are variations of Legacy banned cards. I've provided my reason throughout various topics.
I think Counterbalance should be banned, there are some ridiculous Stoneblade / Counterbalance brews out there that are undefeatable.
Waiting four turns after casting the spell for the same effect isn't even comparable. Infernal Tutor is fairly bad without Lion's Eye Diamond. All of those card, while similar, have a large enough drawback that keeps them in check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
TM lacks that. In fact, it's better than *Time Walk as you can cast it on your opponents turn. The fact that you have to cast it the turn you draw it as your first draw is a minor drawback, what with Brainstorm and Jace being in the format.
- It's close enough to being time walk AND having the potential to be cast at instant speed is what makes it a bannable card. 3 Rounds against a Junk deck isn't enough to determine how good or bad any card is though.Quote:
From what I've seen, so far all you've said is that it's kind of like Time Walk, which is not by itself a decent argument to take a step that's been done with only two cards in the history of Magic.
*Edit: In some situations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Could you pretend to read what I posted before you start talking about what I postedQuote:
That was just one of many I don't really think typing up the rest of my notes is worth it all the other rounds were quite similar.
Cleanup on aisle 5!
YOU were claiming to have DEFINITIVE proof of your position. Your currently presented proof is crap. Don't feed me bullshit that you have "others but i dun wunna post them". Also, your comment was vague: it could have been referring to other Junk rounds or other decks. Too much vagueness.Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
Don't half ass your "testing" results and what you post. If all you are going to give me is 3 rounds vs a Junk deck, don't be surprised if you catch some slack.
How many decks did you test against? How many rounds? What was your deck list? What were their deck lists? Did you test against all of the DTB? Did you test against other decks that are commonly showing up but aren't considered decks to beat?
Until you can answer those questions, don't bother posting your "test" results.
Hey DragoFireHeart, go throw together a broken list using Temporal Mastery and please show us it. Should not be hard to do since it is so broken.
Considering I was never claiming to have such a deck list, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
I never claimed to have DEFINITIVE proof. I claimed to have tested the card and claimed in my testing it was far from broken. Then you freaked the fuck out claiming that it was broken and that everyone who had played the card in actual games was just wrong because you say the card is broken. You have offered nothing to support your position and when asked to do so you just brushed it off. If you want anyone to take you seriously offer something that contradicts what I am saying besides "because I said so."Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I was playing the list from this article. You should read the rest of it and maybe you can get a better understanding of what this card does because obviously you have no experience with it. After you have read that then you should read this, and maybe even this. There has to be a reason none of these people are agreeing with you.
This is where your argument falls apart. If TM is as broken as claimed(in need of the emergency banning) then it should be easy to throw together a list that just blows apart all the top decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
First of all, I've provided plenty of reasons in this topic and various others. Just because I don't have test results doesn't make my arguments more or less valid.Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
Second, if you think I'm freaking out, then you need to take it less personally. I'm attacking your arguments and evidence, not you. If you feel like I attacked you I apologize.
Finally, your evidence is lacking. I bold various questions for you to answer. If you and others have tested said decks with TM, answering them should be easy. If you can't answer those questions, then your testing is not sufficient. I don't think what little you posted in this topic would be even considered in topics in the DTB section.
This is clearly a fallacy. SoTF wasn't considered broken for quite some time. It wasn't until it caught on that people finally saw how powerful it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
The same can easily apply to TM. It may not seem strong at first, but enough tournaments results will show how broken/crappy it is.
Imo, whatever the number of test already done at the moment, it is clearly not enough to get a clear opinion about the card.
This is really really too early right now to argue that the card is good or not on empirical basis, just really too early, let's be honest.
Now, it doesnt prevent anyone from having on opinion on it, but, right now, it remains pure feeling.
Survival was always a strong card. Vengevine broke it. Then wizards realized it probably isn't a good idea having a reusable, difficult to remove tutor in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
If you want to compare Temporal Mastery to anything because of it's subtle power then compare it to brainstorm.
Anyway, Time Walk is good when cast. A conditional Time Walk is only good in certain conditions.
Yes, yes it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
LOL, why would I need to take it less personally, you are the one freaking out.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
My evidence might be "lacking" but you have NONE.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Edit:
Also can you list your "reasons"
No wonder you did poorly. Doesn't look like the deck is designed to take advantage of TM. Also, I find it disappointing that those articles barely talked about using Sensei's Divining Top or Personal Tutor with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
Obviously if I slap SotF into a burn deck it will do poorly. Doesn't change the fact SoTF is banned.
I can see that you have no actual intent of validating your results. I'll take it that you're done arguing with me...?Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
SoTF was a tier 1.5 card for quite a long time. It was tier 1 here and there but it was never an overwhelming powerful card.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
A conditional Time Walk that can be cast at instant speed sounds pretty good to me.
Obviously your list is better, where was that posted again? Caleb Durward talks about Personal Tutor here, he thinks that interaction is over hyped.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I would like to see your results, but you have none.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
First, I never claimed to have a list. If I did, you might have a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
Second, Channelfireball is not the infallible word of Magic the Gathering.
Third, since everyone and their mother wants me to do so, I'll try and make you all a vague deck list of something that can abuse personal tutor* in the deck post.
Edit: Temporal Mastery, not personal tutor.
The onus is on those claiming "Ban" to show the card/deck is broken. The status quo is easy enough to demonstrate that a card/deck is fair in the format.
Better than Time Walk, you heard it first on Drago FM.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
:rolleyes:
Yeah it does sound good. Who doesn't like extra turns?Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Does it sound as good as drawing half your deck with Ad Naseum?
Does it sound as good as dredging half your deck with breakthrough?
Does it sound as good as casting green Sun's zenith for whatever hatebear will screw up your opponent?
Does it sound as good as cards like Hymn to Tourach, Life from the Loam, or Snapcaster Mage? Cards that have strong effects at the same mana cost with no set up required.
The argument wasn't even whether or not the card is good. Is it broken?
Since so many of you asked me for my "decklist" (which I never claimed to have), I'll give you something so you can berate me on how awful it is. Off the top of my head:
First, we're going blue. Here's a starting shell for it:
4 BS
3 JTMS
4 FoW
We're going for a more controlling base since we already have Jace. 22 lands of some configuration.
22 Lands
4 BS
3 JTMS
4 FoW
We now want Temporal Mastery. Multiples is bad, so 4 is not the number. Lets try three for now:
22 Lands
4 BS
3 JTMS
4 FoW
3 TM
To fully abuse it, we want tops. This isn't counterbalance so we don't want the full set. Lets do three.
22 Lands
4 BS
3 JTMS
4 FoW
3 TM
3 SDT
39 slots are filled, leaving us with 21 to fill. Lets say we wanted to try and fit this in a Blade Control deck. 4 SFM, 4 SCM, 1 Batterskull, 4 StP, 1 Jitte sounds good?
22 Lands
4 BS
3 JTMS
4 FoW
3 TM
3 SDT
4 SFM
4 SCM
1 BSkull
4 StP
1 Jitte
That leaves us with 7 slots. Lingering souls is popular, lets put in 4:
22 Lands
4 BS
3 JTMS
4 FoW
3 TM
3 SDT
4 SFM
4 SCM
1 BSkull
4 StP
1 Jitte
4 LingerS
For the last 3 slots, lets put in Spell Snare since we need more counters.
22 Lands (some configuration of Tundras and Underground seas with other lands)
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Temporal Mastery
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster mage
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lingering Souls
3 Spell Snare
Alright, have fun telling me how terrible I am. :smile: