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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Abyss is never meant to be a sweeper. You can't compare Abyss to WoG just as you can't compare Humility to WoG. They serve different purposes with abyss/Humility requiring secondary cards to be fully effective (unlike Moat). It functions differently from WoG/Disk. It functions more closely to cards like Moat/Humility i.e. not a sweeper, but a staller. Moat is usually much stronger than Humility because against the right deck, it's an end to opponent's combat phase entirely. Humility/Abyss don't sweep, but tend to be paired up strongly with a secondary card (Humility with Factories/Elspeth/Decree of Justice, Abyss with Jace/pin-point removal).
Abyss is just not being played much at the moment. When it does pick up, I won't be surprised to see it overshoot $150 and reach Moat levels. The thing that's stopping Abyss from being popularly played is there hasn't been an upsurge of UBx based control decks outside of BUG control, which primarily win with Deed. If UWx and BUG control start shifting to UBx control lists, the Abyss is the most powerful tool you can use against aggro (when paired with pinpoint removal). Aggro decks cannot beat a sitting Abyss unless they are ages ahead (in this case Humility can't beat those decks either).
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Abyss isn't going anywhere as long as Qasali is in the format. When Qasali is involved WOD and humility are much better than abyss...and WOD doesn't even see a lot of play
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Moosedog
Abyss isn't going anywhere as long as Qasali is in the format. When Qasali is involved WOD and humility are much better than abyss...and WOD doesn't even see a lot of play
What about Moat? Shackles? All these aren't ideal with Pridemage in the format. The nice thing is, people are actually dropping Pridemages to run other spells. The meta has shifted away from 4 Pridemage in every single deck when Pridemage was owning the format of Counterbalance/Dreadnoughts.
Abyss/Moat/Humility/Disk/Deed all fall under this category where it is vulnerable to Pridemage/Grips, but that doesn't mean you don't play them, because Pridemages/Grips are not as widely as they used to be. Like I said, no one is playing Abyss because other better decks exist (UWx, BUGdeed) at the moment. It'll take awhile for a UBx deck to perform well (I don't doubt this), and all it takes is one tournament with a series of performances, and this card will easily shoot up like Moat/Candles/etc.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Especially nowadays when it seems SCG bumps prices up at will (perhaps I should have posted this is the SCG hate thread).
I just bought my Abyss. At the very worst it'll retain it's value (and I'll use it).
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Man do I look like a genius now for picking up English Abyss. Pretty decent shape too. I've seen how devastating a T2 Abyss can be, but it definitely takes a specific deck to run.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
It is fortunate for me to have picked up The Abyss a month ago before people posted in the thread. Look at the price now, I love this thread.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keys
The Abyss is still far behind behind Moat, Wrath of God/Damnation, Firespout, and Drop of Honey for sweepers... It might have some niche Commander value but other than that I don't see it getting more play than it currently does (i.e. none).
I mostly agree. Porphyry Nodes should get a nod as well.
The drop of honey/porphyry nodes are definitely different than The Abyss, however I feel that The Abyss is extremely overrated.
Nether Void is where it's at. Some extremely oppressive prison deck is just waiting to abuse this. Wish I could afford them!
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Taxing them (and yourself btw) to pay extra :3: for spells like Tarmogoyf or Terravore is not exactly as strong as "creatures you cast can't attack as they die on your upkeep while I fateseal you." Not overrated but underplayed.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I think void has to be played like a "hard standstill" in order to be effective in anyway, it would def need to be built around I think.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phonics
I think void has to be played like a "hard standstill" in order to be effective in anyway, it would def need to be built around I think.
Nether Void decks won't ever be very good, imo. Too much entry cost, not enough reward. They were never very good.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tsabo_tavoc
It is fortunate for me to have picked up The Abyss a month ago before people posted in the thread. Look at the price now, I love this thread.
I picked them up a month too when I realized how stupid it is in Steel sTompy after realizing how stupid it was in Planeswalker Stax :P
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I think somewhere theres a UBStax deck that fits the Abyss nicely. I was working on a mono-U Stax deck for a while but the fact that they can still attack Jace under Propaganda completely ruins it, then WotC had to completely miss the chance the redo Propaganda to protect PWs with those EDH decks, damnit.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
Nether Void decks won't ever be very good, imo. Too much entry cost, not enough reward. They were never very good.
LOL, you probably didnīt play in a time where the opening plays were mox, ritual Juzam, then turn 2 or 3 drop Nethervoid, GG.
Get your facts straight please.
Also, The Abyss doesnīt work unless you play with ancient tombs/city of traitors. Playing these lands means you cannot play double-colored spells easily. (You can, but there is a big chance you will not hit your UB or UU.) So this will therefore not be good in planeswalker stax because planeswalker stax is an inconsistent and therefore bad deck. The Abyss is a good card but not in the proposed decks.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Why have certain Ravnica shock lands shot up in price lately? I've noticed Hallowed Fountain and Breeding Pool, specifically, are 17-20$ at many places. Overall, a lot of shocklands have sold out at many card retailers online.
Speculation because of Modern? or another EDH price spike? I have noticed certain staples like Reliquary Tower has jumped up in price (nonfoil 2-5$, foil 10$+) just over the course of the last 2-3 months.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I missed reliquary tower, not sure if that's due to EDH ( I can't imagine? ). Shockduals I think speculation on modern is the reason. Foil shock duals is due to EDH.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Reliquary Tower is due to EDH. Shocklands is EDH and Modern.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
This has taken a turn for the strange.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
And that right there is what ruins the game.
( couldn't care less though, got my playset fow, seas, fetches etc etc, for cheap years ago. So I should be happy. )
Hobby's aren't meant to make profit, that's why they are Hobby's.
But still ..
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
^I guess the same thing could be said about stamp and coin collecting too. Or any kind of antiques collecting. Most are in it for the hobby aspect. But because of the demand, there are always people who are going to try to make a buck.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Oh boy.
Having a hobby and staying even or ahead is strictly better than having a hobby and using up money. I don't see a lot of people throwing an extra $20 on duals "just because?" This is the same thing, people(one being myself) like to minimize their costs.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cdr
In a segment called, "the Most Bizarre Investment Strategies" which translates in money talk to, "I can't believe this shit is real" or "I do not recommend this strategy."
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I wouldn't expect Magic to be mentioned in mainstream media in any other context than "I can't believe this shit is real".
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
LOL, you probably didnīt play in a time where the opening plays were mox, ritual Juzam, then turn 2 or 3 drop Nethervoid, GG.
Get your facts straight please.
Excuse me, Nether Void was never any good in 1.5. That's what this board is about, right?
Note the '03 join date brother, I probably played Legacy before you. Nether Void used to be viable many years ago, but Pox was the better deck.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
Excuse me, Nether Void was never any good in 1.5. That's what this board is about, right?
Note the '03 join date brother, I probably played Legacy before you. Nether Void used to be viable many years ago, but Pox was the better deck.
I still think Nether Void could be good. It's obviously a card that your deck is built to break the symmetry of.
I'm thinking manlands+ports.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Since we don't exactly know everyone's bday, he might have started playin back when Juzam is type 2 and 1.5 is not called as legacy
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
death
Since we don't exactly know everyone's bday, he might have started playin back when Juzam is type 2 and 1.5 is not called as legacy
FYI Juzam was never T2.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
You've never turn 2'd a Juzam? Then you obviously haven't played REAL Magic... (I know you mean Type 2, I'm just kidding :D )
-Matt
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
my bad, Juzam was printed before t2.
Peace,
death
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
You've never turn 2'd a Juzam? Then you obviously haven't played REAL Magic... (I know you mean Type 2, I'm just kidding :D )
-Matt
Actually, there's a funny story behind that (Kadilak and Di can verify this):
Back in 2005 sometime, my opening turn went like this:
Swamp, Lotus Petal, Ritual, Sacrifice Petal, Juzam, Go.
Turn two?
Swamp, Ritual, Juzam, Attack, Go.
Kadilak couldn't believe his eyes, and he wound up losing obviously. He was running early Zoo (remember, this predates a lot of targeted removal we see today). It was awesome.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
The guys dropping the big dolla dolla on the the abyss are gonna get egg on their faces. Seriously a couple of the landstill guys and blak stax guys have tested the thing to death. It's still not good and will unlikely ever be that great. Its effect for 4 mana is too easily blanked by tribal. As long as there are merfok, goblins and elves, the abyss will not be good enough. As a creature hoser it better damn well hose tribal. Oh wait, theres engineered plaque and damnation, which do a much better job. There's a reason why cards like deed are played More, you need to be flexible in legacy.
The abyss is specifically a midrange aggro hoser which provides incremental advantage. But then decks like bant can just kill you with jace or feed mana dudes to abyss while smashing your face in with a big hydra.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ivanpei
The guys dropping the big dolla dolla on the the abyss are gonna get egg on their faces. Seriously a couple of the landstill guys and blak stax guys have tested the thing to death. It's still not good and will unlikely ever be that great. Its effect for 4 mana is too easily blanked by tribal. As long as there are merfok, goblins and elves, the abyss will not be good enough. As a creature hoser it better damn well hose tribal. Oh wait, theres engineered plaque and damnation, which do a much better job. There's a reason why cards like deed are played More, you need to be flexible in legacy.
The abyss is specifically a midrange aggro hoser which provides incremental advantage. But then decks like bant can just kill you with jace or feed mana dudes to abyss while smashing your face in with a big hydra.
You're spot on wrong. Who are a "couple of the Landstill guys" that have tested it and what kind of shell are you referring to? The Abyss can be powered out as early as the second turn in the right deck, and right now Legacy is seeing more and more of a shift toward Stoneforge Mystic strategies. Damnation costs double-Black and is a one-time use. Engineered Plague doesn't outright kill anything; all it does is shrink an opposing force when Lords can just pump them back up.
Believe it or not, four mana is not that hard to achieve in Legacy, and a card like The Abyss can completely hammer down all creature-based strategies by forcing an opposing player to either keep their threats off the board and rack up several with more mana (which is effectively shutting their board position down), or it pummels decks like Bant into trading their fragile mana suppliers for a few more points of damage over the course of several turns. The Abyss is a card that, when it hits the table, allows you to not only collect spells in your hand, but knock opposing threats down. That's a major swing in card advantage if you can lock or slow down an opponent by the third turn.
The Abyss, when used in conjunction with cards like Chalice of the Void, can completely strengthen your board position and alleviate pressure before it gets out of hand. This is a card that few people have tested reliably, and what is more disturbing are the people who are dismissing it as a "narrow, mid-range creature hoser."
The Abyss is a powerful Enchantment in the right deck, and I've got my Monsters and coffee ready.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Well, I tested the thing to death in BUG Landstill and I can tell you it's not worth the slots in the board. Bruizar is right about needing something to power it out faster. I can't picture that card being a bit useful unless you are dumping it out on turn 2 on a regular basis. Drop of Honey comes out ten million times faster and it was barely making the cut against Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk in my Landstill. It had nothing to do with the fact that one dies on it's own either. It's just that they get overwhelmed easily.
Anyway, as for that Forbes article, that's amusing. I wonder what those guys would think if they saw the percentage payback gains I have a spreadsheet for. When some stuff is hitting into the 400% payback range for the year, that's scary good returns even counting your losses.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Octopusman
I still think Nether Void could be good. It's obviously a card that your deck is built to break the symmetry of.
I'm thinking manlands+ports.
My initial thought would be with Bloodghasts since you can recur them from the graveyard easy.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dahcmai
Well, I tested the thing to death in BUG Landstill and I can tell you it's not worth the slots in the board. Bruizar is right about needing something to power it out faster. I can't picture that card being a bit useful unless you are dumping it out on turn 2 on a regular basis. Drop of Honey comes out ten million times faster and it was barely making the cut against Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk in my Landstill. It had nothing to do with the fact that one dies on it's own either. It's just that they get overwhelmed easily.
Anyway, as for that Forbes article, that's amusing. I wonder what those guys would think if they saw the percentage payback gains I have a spreadsheet for. When some stuff is hitting into the 400% payback range for the year, that's scary good returns even counting your losses.
The example they used is equivalent to very low risk investing. Not that I actively invest in mtg, but recently with the increased popularity of EDH and Legacy and mythic rarity there have been many opportunities to make wise (and fairly safe) investments that yield significant returns. Not only with the 'internet market' but abusing the difference in local markets and the internet is also another way to get lots of gains.
Also, whats the price for foil goblin matrons right now, ~65$?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Here's my thing about Abyss. I'll use it and it won't go down in price over time. Egg? Maybe if I were speculating. But I'm not. I don't expect to make money.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
Excuse me, Nether Void was never any good in 1.5. That's what this board is about, right?
Note the '03 join date brother, I probably played Legacy before you. Nether Void used to be viable many years ago, but Pox was the better deck.
Oh, I dunno. Circa Torment, B/G Void was superior to Pox. Having Deed was pretty good and not running Pox meant you could run good cards like Nantuko Shade instead of bad ones like Chimeric Idol. Thems was the days! :)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
That's the funny thing. You probably will anyway. It's a Legends card, on the reserve list, and definitely playable in EDH. Good formula for a card that will gain around 8% a year. It will slowly go up over time since there's not much way they're going to print something like that in standard again better than the zombie one. I don't expect it to be a break out card in Legacy, but you never know. Things could change up and some sort of New Horizons deck could be the king for a bit and give The Abyss a break.
Still in the end, it's a pretty safe one. No danger of the bottom going out.
Goblin Matrons seem to be running around $75-$80. Don't go to Ebay for that. It's more expensive there than anywhere else.
Oh, and Nether Void rocked when Legends was first out. That Juzam play was sooo scary back then. Especially when the better players had figured out Sinkhole was just mean with Void. Remember Strip Mine was Legal as a 4 of back then.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
The list I'm testing with The Abyss has been very potent so far. I run Urborg and Tombs, so I really have no issues getting the mana I need. Also runs Moxen.
