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@NihilObstat: I haven't done much testing with the list myself and never faced any graveyard hate from opposing sideboards, but I don't believe that would be a problem unless you let them get 3+ Vengevines out of it. If an opponent must resort to bringing in narrow cards like that in the matchup, it seems simple enough to play through it. The deck is quite resilient, although as I noted earlier perhaps you need an Ezuri to help your elves break through after they deal with Vengevines.
The best answer is birchlore rangers and crossing your fingers.
an elves deck very near the one you suggested did very well at SCG pitt
EDIT; you being ross
Here's the list from Jesus Causing, who top8'ed @ the last SCG.
MD:
3 Tropical Island
3 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Gaea's Cradle
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Vengevine
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Regal Force
1 Fauna Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Intuition
SB:
1 Intuition
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Fauna Shaman
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Krosan Grip
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tormod's Crypt
The deck looks very resilient despite the 2-1 lost in the QF against Aggro Zoo, wich reached the 2nd place at the event.
I'm testing the build for GP Amsterdam 2011, and it definitely is resilient and strong, pretty much the same as The Ross, and as he suggested splashing black for side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmode
I love the extra Fauna Shaman in the sideboard, because they let you go a little "Transformer" side with an extra Tutor, reducing the importance of Glimpse.
I don't see the point of Eternal Witness though, it's an awesome card, but I don't see against what specific type of pairing would he side her in.
Birchlore rangers are sweet ;)
Awesome placing for Elves by the way, it looks like we really can adapt to any metagame change and keep placing in SCG events. Congratulations Jesus and Riley!
I agree that the E Witness looks out of place, as does the 4th intuition. Not sure how I feel about the 2 extra fauna shamans, although I could see matchups where intuitioning for them would be good, mainly slow control matches. The Rangers are clearly for Hive Mind, although more dedicated hate may be necessary, like Sundial of the Infinite.
The metagame seems to be getting better for Elves, as people are racing to beat Hive Mind out of the top spot. The RUG decks are an issue if they have Fire/Ice, and not having Emrakul certainly hurts there, so I like the one in the board. I'm testing mostly Extended for Philly at the moment but when the time is right hopefully I can break out the little green men again. This deck is one of the most fun I've ever played.
I read you had problems with vengevines g2/g3 because of gravehate...but I would not board them out everytime because if you combo out, vengevines will simply be hardcast for the win. although I got 1 Ezuri MD to ensure the win (nice mana sink here), and an Emrakul in the board.
the intuition elves build interacts much more with the opponent than the pure elves combo, just be careful with your vengevines in game 2
I got 2nd in a 35 person event yesterday. I lost round one to Bant (although I think it's a good matchup in general), then proceeded to beat RUG Natural Order, RUG Natural Order, UW Stoneforge, and Zoo, and finally drew round six against UW Landstill. In the top 8 I took down Bant and GW Maverick but was finally defeated by Junk (with the 'ol Perish + Ethersworn Canonist sideboard plan). Here's my list:
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Quirion Ranger
2 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Summoner's Pact
4 Green Sun's Zenith
5 Forest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Priest of Titania
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Windswept Heath
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Dryad Arbor
SB: 1 Mortarpod
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 Vengevine
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
gg for the SCG's Top 8.
You like really your Dryad Arbor? Vs 4 Cradle? Do you have a probleme for play Cabal with 1 Bayou?
@blind: Therapy only comes in against other combo decks which for the most part do not have wasteland so the one bayou with fetches to find it are more than enough. Additionally, Birchlore Rangers gives the necessary black mana.
I like Cabal Vs Controle and Aggro Controle, why you don't in Cabal Vs this Mus?
I side :
-4 Glimpse -3 Visio -1 Regal Force
+4 Cabal +2 Fauna +2 K-grip
Vs Stonestill, Bant, Rock, Ubg Landstil...
I don't like extra Intuition and Witness. What is your advice for Arbor Vs 4 Cradle? I like NO + Pro in SB, it's good Vs hate grave.
SIGH.
post deleted 3 times now.
stupid quick reply
jesus causing here
quickly since im lazy
play 4 cradles if you have them
7 fetch
3 trop
4 cradle
1 arbor
3 forest
e.witness gives you more intuition piles and can be zenith'ed to blow your opponent out with like a symbiote or glimpse.
cabal therapy sucks.
new sb:
2 fauna
1 priest
1 v. shaman
1 sylvok rep
1 birchlore
1 ezuri
1 emrakul
1 Venser, Shaper Savant(mise card against no rug/emrakul)
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Sundial of the Infinite
no pro is soo unessecary and awful considering you have no way to discard ur progenitus unlike no rug(vend clique/brainstorm)
if they board in gy hate bring in:
emrakul
ezuri
priest
birchlore
witness
(-4 vv -1 zenith/visionary?)
and just play the good ol combo elf deck with a better tutor
i love this deck, won't put it down until next january when scg choose to support modern over legacy.
toodles~
I have brought in Therapy against Bug-still and believe it's correct but I don't like it against any of the other decks you listed. Rock won't have counterspells to contain your combo so bringing out Glimpse against them is incorrect. Bant and Stoneforge rarely have enough spells you'd like to Therapy in order to make the card useful. I've stated that I don't like extra Fauna Shamans before and I don't like Krosan Grip at all so in the SCG list I'd probably just bring in 4 Therapy against Bug-still and that's about it. I'd probably bring out an Intuition, and 3 Quirion Rangers since Glimpse and Visionary are important tools to gain card advantage and play a long game against the control decks of the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by blind
I can agree regarding discard versus :u::b: control lists, because it allows you to remove counters (MM or FoW) and sweepers (Deed and Perish). This gives ability to finally commit to the combo or aggro plan.
How did you like Vengevine without Buried Alive/Intuition?Quote:
Originally Posted by Harduvel
When boarding in Cabal Therapy, what should I board out?
* Playing against Combo / Control decks *
Hi ALL,
Here's my Elf Combo deck. It's still on experiment. Our metagame revolves on Hive Mind, Bant, Maverick and 'Folks. I would like to know your thoughts on this. Plus, sideboard suggestions are highly appreciated.
CREATURES
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Priest of Titania
1 Regal Force
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
SPELLS
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Concordant Crossroads
ARTIFACTS
3 Staff of Domination
LANDS
1 Gaea's Cradle
12 Forest
what SB's should I have for our meta?
12 forests is somewhat greedy, especially with that curve. I'd cut Emrakul (which isn't really needed with Crossroads unless everyone in your meta plays Glacial Chasm MD) as well as the Staffs (they're nice and all, but with Priest + 4 Elves you should be in good shape anyhow, and they're usually too mana intensive to be of much use otherwise). Get GSZ + Arbor in there somehow if you can afford it - that gives you room to cut some of the llanowar Elves (6-7 turn 1 accelerators are usually enough with a landcount of 14-15, especially as you run 4 Quirions) and Birchlore Rangers (which frankly aren't all that outside of the Hive Mind MU).
I personally like cutting Nettle altogether to fit in more good stuff overall, especially as you run Crossroads to abuse your Priests, but that's playstyle preference. Masticore is good versus Merfolk and Maverick, as well as being one of your few outs versus Peacekeeper. Viridian Shaman is probably better than Zealot MD, and is mandatory in the SB otherwise (kills Canonist, kills Equipment, kills them again with Symbiote).
Thanks Infinitium! The feedback is much appreciated. If I need to cut Emrakul, what card should I replace it with (I was thinking of Banefire)? Staff saved a lot of times especially with the like of Trygon Predator or any other flyers. I'm planning to add 1 more priest to stabilize my mana engine. BTW, this is my SB proposal:
2-3 pithing needle
2 krosan grip/ v. shaman
3 thorn of amethyst
3-4 extirpate/ s. extractions
3-4 tormod's/ relic
1 choke (?)
for the black SB's, I am thinking of adding 4 bayou, 5 fetches..so that gives me 4 bayou, 5 fetches, 3 forests and 1 cradle.
guys, your thoughts?
Just replace it with another Elf (or Crossroads; Crossroads is pretty fucking good when you can abuse it to make some 50ish mana the same turn). You have Concordant Crossroads, Priests and Lords to go with your bazillion elves. Hasty green men tends to kill people dead with or without other win conditions, so adding any more is just overkill.
Holy shit. I just played 10 games vs NO RUG on mws vs my friend, and he crushed me 10-0! This MU seems almost unwinable. Between Bolt, Fire/Ice, Lavamancer, Misstep + Jitte from the board, there is just not much you can do. My board plan was even to bring in my own Jittes, but that plan doesn't work at all. Does anybody have any ideas to beat this MU?
Btw, I have always been an advocate of Gaea's Cradle, but that card is just terrible at the moment, because of Misstep. You always wanna have 2 mana on turn two, and if they Misstep your 1-drop and Cradle is your only other land, you are pretty screwed. I know they could do that before as well with spot removal, but that didn't cause tempo loss and people were hesitant to waste removal on Llanowar, etc. It's even worse if they have Misstep + Wasteland!
Elves was a nice tier 1.5 - 2 deck pre Misstep. Now, there is just not much you can do.
Heavy blue control/aggro control metagame is not a lot of fun.
It won't get better with snapcaster mage recuring removal and MM....
I never used Gaea's Cradle in my elf deck, although play 10 basic lands; elves can generate enough mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
I would like to see your deck list... I'll post mine later. I have not played against NO RUG at this moment so I'm not going to pretend I know how to beat NO RUG but I would like to know the main MM target that screwed you.
:)
Well, the buried alive/vengevine package should help there, (also in zenith builds well... zenith is pretty good there), and if that's out of your budget then maybe Steely Resolve could help against any deck with a lot of targeted removal (this does negate your symbiote as you can't target an elf to use the ability)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
I tested a lot against NORug and found it rather easy. Except if they can go NO-Progenitus on T3. I do play an Elvish Champion MD to just run them over with unblockable guys.
About Cradle: I play 2 MD but never ever play it before there are 2 elves on the board. Your opponent will let the second creature resolve a lot of the times just because they think you don't have a second land. Then you land the cradle and they will weep. But post the list, then we can comment in a more targetted way :smile:
I don't really need tips from people who say the worst MU for elves is "rather easy". Elvish Champion is not gonna change anything in that MU. About your cute little Cradle comment, they kill or counter your first creature, which shuts down Cradle and makes it bad cause you can't cast Visionary on turn 2, unless you have a 3rd land which is very rare, since you should run 19-20 lands tops! So it's not like you can hold Cradle in your hand and pretend everything is fine. You need 2 mana on turn two and Cradle doesn't support that very well, especially against NO RUG (and other Misstep decks with removal).
I already run Intuition > Vengevine, but Scavenging Ooze makes that plan a joke, since they can slow you down enough with Fire/Ice, Lavaman, Bolts, Misstep and FoW. Zenith is a fine card, but it doesn't do anything great in that MU. It's just a sweet card overall.
Sorry for being harsh, but both posts were rather useless, and I really hope Steely Resolve was a joke..
If you don't believe me, I will gladly crush you with NO RUG on mws ;D
I play mirror entity elves not glimpse elves but RUG is also not the most baller matchup for me either. I run 4 misstep mainboard and its been awesome so far to stop exactly what i need it to swords, bolts, lavamancers and missteps. Idk if theres room in your guys' deck but its been phenominal in mine. I also run a spellskite and a stoneforge package out of the board to compensate for getting 2/1'd with fire. I have chord of callings so I only need one.
Protip: if you are playing blue Ive tested 3 envelop in my sb for perish/firespout/show and tell/natural order/infernal tutor? and its been great too.
The worst MU for elves is BUGstill. And if you don't want any comment, then don't post or ask for advice. In the event of countering the first Elf, then yes, cradle is bad. But not every opponent will do this. Read what I wrote, before commenting like a ***.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
Yeye, the old "don't comment before you read my post" isn't gonna work (like it ever did). I read every single word you said, and responded to them. It's useless to talk about dream scenarios and your opponent making choices in your favor. The worst MU for Elves is not BUG if you run Vengevine + Tutor, which you should. Cards like Lavaman, Fire/Ice and Jitte are much worse than anything BUG can throw at you. I never said I don't want ANY comments.
If you want to play combo elves, you cannot run chaff like Mental Misstep. You don't want to play reactive cards or have dead draws mid-combo. Envelop is truly a sweet card, but I would never run counter magic in combo elves.
Until they ban Mental Misstep, combo elves will never be tier 1 :(
Yeye, the old "don't comment before you read my post" isn't gonna work (like it ever did). I read every single word you said, and responded to them. It's useless to talk about dream scenarios and your opponent making choices in your favor. The worst MU for Elves is not BUG if you run Vengevine + Tutor, which you should. Cards like Lavaman, Fire/Ice and Jitte are much worse than anything BUG can throw at you. I never said I don't want ANY comments.
If you want to play combo elves, you cannot run chaff like Mental Misstep. You don't want to play reactive cards or have dead draws mid-combo. Envelop is truly a sweet card, but I would never run counter magic in combo elves.
Until they ban Mental Misstep, combo elves will never be tier 1 :(
Thats fair. If anybody wants it this is the Mirror Entity elves list Ive been running.
7 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
18 lands
4 Elvish Archdruid
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Fauna Shaman
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Mirror Entity
4 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
32 creatures
4 Mental Misstep
2 Chord of Calling
4 Green Sun's Zenith
10 spells
Sideboard
3 Envelop
3 Krosan Grip
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Duplicant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Spellskite
Hi, disagree on just about everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
I've played NO RUG about 5 times now and my record is 4-1 o.o
You're on the "If they have the nuts on the play AND you kept a subpar hand AND you didnt draw land 3 AND they know what they're doing" mindset.
You have issues having 3 lands in your hand by turn 3? Here's an idea. Cut a ranger for a forest. I've been contemplating this for a while and i feel its correct.
Obviously jitte is a beating, but its literally 1-2 cards in their entire deck.
I've never had an issue with 1-2 missteps in the oponnents opening hand. 3rd one is where you start getting frustrated.
They also only have 1-2 ooze in their deck.
If you resolve inutition it will literally eat them alive.
Also remember NO RUG is 1 deck. There are 15 other decks that are viable that a good matchups.
PS: Cradle is nuts.
PSS:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAh no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
Draw vengevine.
That is all.
@TheBirdMan:
Cool list, but why 2 Ezuri and 2 Mirror Entity? Wouldn't 2 more Chord of Calling be better?
Spell Pierce seems much stronger in that case too. Both have an awesome surprise value, but Spell Pierce also counters Intuition, Hive Mind, Grim Monolith, StP, Mental Misstep, and Force of Will, most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBirdMan
If you're using Envelope to prevent a blowout past turn 6, then it hardly matters that you even have the counter - you shouldn't be playing into a sweeper regardless.
Its mainly for perish on turn 5-6
and this deck still wont be good enough *giggle*
Mental misstep banned! maybe joraga warrcaller a good idea now in some
more aggro-oriented lists?
juhuu... elves are back from Tier 3 to tier 2! =)
I think our sucess will depend on how strong CB top will be and how many Plague, EE, Perish and Firespout will be around. Storm combo will still be an issue, so I am curious how many people bring out the LED again. :)
So basically the same issues as before MM. :) Looking forward to come back to the old discussion as soon as we show some T8 results... ?!Ross' 4 cradles, Vengevines, Living Wish, Pact, GSZ and so on?! ...:)
I am also looking forward to playing this deck again. Glimpse now only has to worry about Force, lol.
@Astrix: I've been playing 1x Joraga Warcaller in my list for a really long time. I play it in place of Elvish Archdruid #4. I like the aggro potential quite a bit, as the fundamental aggro turn is only a turn later than the combo turn (turn 4 typically rather than turn 3.)
I think misstep returning hurts this deck. Counterbalance and ritual combo should increase in number while stoneforge and NO rug should decrease. This can only be bad for elves. I have had a ton of success playing combo elves for the past couple months, and expect that my win percentage will be lower now.
Having said that, if zoo is the biggest beneficiary of this change, then elves might end up being fine, as that is another easy matchup.