Yeah in this deck, sometimes you just have to throw the hail mary and hope it gets there. Sometimes it doesnt get there. If you wanted more consistency you could try ANT, but you dont get the T1 kills that we get
Printable View
Yeah in this deck, sometimes you just have to throw the hail mary and hope it gets there. Sometimes it doesnt get there. If you wanted more consistency you could try ANT, but you dont get the T1 kills that we get
For many players opening with Chrome Mox feels like already loosing which isn't the case. In your example you know that you don't face countermagic and the fact that you don't have to infernal for AN which saves 2 mana. For this natural advantage the Investment of Mox (imprint BS) is worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
A brief tourney report of my 3-3 day full of frustration and fun!
Round 1: Jund
G1: I think I probed him and saw what he was on. He didnt have disruption so I passed. He played a DRS and then died after I untapped and played AN.
G2: He led off with TS. T2 he Hymn'd me I believe. I had a card in hand and a BWish and he Plays liliana. I Keep the wish and next turn wish for PiF. After some lucky LED's later I go for a PiF kill, but Im short one storm while he has me at 2 with a Bob, Liliana at 6, and a Goyf out. I can get him to one. So I go for a DReturns. It doesnt get there and I die. I realize after the round I could have just flashed back Silence to add to the storm, or just take him to one and hope he dies to Bob. *Punt*
G3: I lead off with a Probe. I see he doesnt have much to stop me. I could make 10 dudes and just hope, but instead I BS. It hits a couple of Rite of Flames and an LED. So I instead make 16 dudes and pass. Thats the game.
1-0
Round 2: Jund
G1: I see his hand of 2 Hymns, a DRS, a BBE, and lands. Ugh. So I hope to race and just make 8 dudes. He draws a bunch of removal and blockers :/ I die. My reasoning was that he could disrupt my hand and PiF was dead thanks to DRS.
G2: I kept a mull to 6 that was like 1 land, LED, 2x RoF, a petal and a Dark Ritual. Hope I get there! I didnt...
1-1
Round 3: Reanimator
G1: I keep an Ad Nauseam Hand with silence back up on T3. He goes T3 (he was on the play) Exhume Griselbrand.
My turn I know Im just dead because his discard was Iona and Jin Gitaxias so I just go for it. I silence, he forces. I play out Lotus petal and go RoF, Dark Ritual, AN with Lotus petal on board. He draws 7. Daze. I pay. He doesnt have the force. He dies.
G2: He mulls, I keep a 7 of 3x 5color lands, 2x Probe, Silence, Infernal Tutor. He eventually mulls all the way to 4. Luckily for me My probes draw 2 more lands! He rips like a champ and gets a T3 Jin Gitaxias and I die.
G3: I keep a good hand that can go off T1, but no protection, but I do have Probe. I probe and see: 3x Force of Will, Echoing Truth, Entomb, Griselbrand, Land. Yep. He Entombs Jin Gitaxias, I probe again and see he has nothing. I pray. He reanimates Jin Gitaxias. I die :/
1-2
Round 4: Jund
I was pretty frustrated at my match against reanimator and my phone was stolen in between rounds... I feel like a dick the way I acted towards my jund opponent this round.
G1: I probe, he sighs and says "Not this again". I see he is Jund. I make 12 dudes. On his T3 I silence him in fear of a Maelstrom Pulse, He sighs and says "That was a good silence".
G2: He has a bunch of Deathrites and beats me down with them, but not much disruption. He dies to tendrils.
2-2
Round 5: Enchantress
This guy may be a sourcer... I dont know, I just know he had Foreign Foil Enchantress with Shiny Angels. The deck was absolutely beautiful.
G1: I probe to see what he is on. T1 Ad Nauseam ftw.
G2: He Mulls to 5, but opens on Leyline and a land. My turn I go and make 16 goblins even though I was debating Burning Wishing for DReturns and hoping to draw a Chain of Vapor. He Plays Elephant Grass :/ Eventually he cant pay for it anymore but by that time he finds another one. I Infernal Tutor for a chain of Vapor and hit him to 3. But Sadly he plays a Stony Silence shutting down my chrome mox. So Late When I have a Rite of Flame and Infernal Tutor in hand I am one colored mana short of Finding the other chain of vapor to bounce the grass to kill him. Meanwhile he has about a thousand angels.
G3: He doesnt open on leyline! I Do see Elephant grass in hand though. I AN on turn 3 ftw. After the game he said his first draw was a leyline. Whew.
3-2
Round 6: MUD
This was against Ali Aintrazi. First time I have ever played someone I recognize from SCG coverage and stuff so it was kinda cool.
G1: He is on the play. My hand Can go nutters on T1, but he opens on a chalice for 1 :/ two drawsteps later he plays a Trinisphere and I scoop em up.
G2: I have a T2 hand. He has a T1 Chalice. I have an Abrupt Decay though. But I have to waste some of my gas on Chrome Moxen to cast it. He then draws 2 more chalices (which he puts to 1) a few drawsteps later. I have a bunch of chrome moxes out because I drew all three like a boss. I cast DReturns off of a BWish and it gets 2 Abrupt Decays, but restocks his hand with 2 metalWorkers on board. He makes 30 mana and dumps his hand including a trinisphere and a Blightsteel Collossus.
3-3
Overall the deck was fine. I definitely mis judged my hand vs Reanimator on his Mull to 4 but similarly my deck decided that This deck needs to draw 7 lands :/ The Jund Match I lost I think I may have mis played in settling for 8 goblins. I didnt show patience. MUD? I mean What do You do vs Chalice for 1 on the play? Lol.
Nice report! It sounds like you hit some tough matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Does the deck you played against look a little like this? http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Decks&p=700153
--
I Top 8'd with TES! This was my first Top8 in a big event. I'm pretty disappointed I didn't win the whole thing (or at least get to semis :cool:), but I did play my worst matchup in the top8. I feel like the deck is very capable of winning, I just need to tighten up. It's still absurdly overpowered despite my misplays.
Thanks for the advice and support throughout the event, Byrant! It was interesting discussing lines of play.
Report going up when I have time to write it (hopefully tonight or tomorrow).
I think that may have been him. He said he was a Judge, and he had the angels and most of that. A few different cards, but overall seems like the same dude. Nice guy definitely. You had to play Hoogland right?
Congrats on your finish. Just need to work on less play mistakes and considering different lines of play (The IGG line and Probe/Bstorm we talked about). Also, PLAY OUT YOUR FREAKING ARTIFACT MANA AGAINST DISCARD DECKS.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Bryant Cook, what was your Legacy record in Atlanta?
Then they have Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse and Pernicious Deed and all the things? Their removal package is about the same size as the discard, maybe it's best if this isn't doctrine but just another line of play given more context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
It's still strictly preferable to make them invest 2 or 3 mana to get rid of that LED via Decay/Pulse/Deed than for a Single mana in the form of Thoughtseize or IoK. Exceptions still happenQuote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I almost always play out my LED's if I suspect discard, although if I plan to Silence-walk, I may consider holding onto it for an extra turn (to get more storm or to grab a second copy with Infernal Tutor, for instance).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I don't always play out my Lotus Petals though (at least not all of them). I almost never play out my Chrome Moxes unless I actually need to use the mana, since the imprinting is a very real cost.
Played a tourney this sunday. I failed again, but this time I cannot blame myself for the bad score. This was all on the deck.
Report is up: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...321#post716321
Help with my tuning is very much appreciated, but perhaps we can for now keep the discussion in that thread instead of here.
This because the list I am looking at right now is fundamentally different from the TES discussed here (mana base especially).
Hard to judge your mulligans from that report aside from being sure those were far too much. I'm especially interested in the game you mull to 4; why would you mull below 5 with that deck and throw away all chances to kill your opponent in time anyways? I rather add a turn of cantripping than mulling. If you can dig out notes for the mulled hands would be helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Have you considered ANT if TES doesn't serve your purpose?
I didn't play in the Legacy open. Flight left in the middle of the event. Actually, I was home to watch most of the top 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
You just assume he was playing against Jund? He wasn't. Even so, it's more likely that they're discarded than destroyed.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
That's interesting. I actually find the initial mana source of the Lotus Petal equally important. I don't think I'd play out all of my LED's as to avoid getting them pulsed, but Lotus Petals don't usually get Pulsed...Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
If I'd play ANT I would like to play the Grim Tutor list. That seems the strongest. But I don't own those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I am usually quite mulligan shy. I rather keep a scetchy hand than mulligan aggressively. About the mulligan to four: I believe my five was: Ponder, Burning Wish, Ad Nauseam, Thoughtseize, Duress. Something like that. No mana, two business spells, two irrelevant cards and a Ponder. Would you keep that? My six was sort of the same +1 Chrome Mox I believe. My four were two lands, Brainstorm and a Duress. Not that bad, but it doesn't win against three hate bears.
I still believe TES is the best deck out there, but I am often so unlucky that it frustrates the hell out of me. There is just so little you can do if you draw the wrong stuff. Maybe I should switch to Tempo Thresh instead. That deck at least is always able to do something, whether it is disruption, or beating with some guys, or burning Deathrites, at least you don't just sit there and lose. But combo is just very strong, so I feel I shouldn't discard it after one bad day. So if you have advice on the new list I posted, I'd be very happy to read it! :)
You ran Thoughtseize? :/
Still hard to imagine that both the grip of 6 and 7 were that bad too. Blue Source + Ponder is a keeper After a mull to 6
I also find that it's usually correct to hold Petals, although obviously it depends on your hand and the game state. My opponents (both paper and MODO) almost never take the Petal with discard, they tend to take other acceleration, tutors, and cantrips first--and I don't blame them, there's usually little reason to worry about a Lotus Petal. Pretty much the only time they'll take Petal is when it's really obvious that I need it to color fix, like if I have an Underground Sea a Petal and some Rites of Flame.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
Yes I run thoughtseize in the board because I prefer them over Cabal Therapy. It's an old habit from Mystical ANT, when I would side -4 Chant, -4 Duress, +4 Thoughtseize, +4 Bounce against unknown hate from non-blue decks. I've explained this pages back. Therapy needs either brillinat poker skills (which I don't have) or a Probe/Duress to work well. If you don't have those, the Therapy just fails most of the time. Thoughtseize always hits. And I never died because of its additional life loss, not even since I run it next to Probe. (One can always hardcast Probe.)
My initial hands all had no lands at all in that game. I believe my seven were: 2x Wish, 2x Ponder, 2x Brainstorm, LED or something. In any case really awkward. As I said, I don't like to mulligan much. If I have land + cantrip I usually keep. Only if the rest really sucks I will ship such a hand.
Therapy doesn't really require poker skills, most of the time if you don't have information then you name what you're afraid of or what beats you. Missing isn't the end of the world.
Lands aren't required. Initial manasources are. But I completely agree that those hands are unkeepable.
You are afraid of Thalia and Teeg. You name Thalia, he has Teeg and a Mindbreak Trap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
In that case I would like to have named Mindbreak Trap, and cantripped into Chain of Vapor.
But I didn't, because I reconed Thalia would mess it up most, and I didn't expect the Trap.
This is just one of the occasions I encountered in testing when I hated Therapy and wanted Seize.
Most play the Therapies, so I'm sure they are good too, but I just prefer Seize.
But good news for all Therapy lovers trying to persuade me to play them: I'm switching lists!
Silence goes, and Therapy comes in. And the mana base becomes fetch heavy, to improve cantrips.
Report up! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Top8-with-TES
The situation Bryant was talking about with artifact mana was round 6 against Dredge.
I meant the Invitational; you played in it, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Congrats!, I played at SCG ATL with TES as well... I went X-6 ;_; ... Every match went to game 3, just couldn't overcome some diversity.. Except vs. Jund. Jund had the dreaded: T1: Thoughtseize, T2: Duress, T3 Lili, T4 BBE cascade into Hymn, game 2 :(Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
I had a couple of times Sunday that I wish I were playing a way to remove artifacts and enchantments as a wish target and I think I may go back to it on a local level due to a high amount of Chalice of the Voids... I mean to be fair, I did play Enchantress and MUD in successive rounds, I just would like to know that I have that safety net just incase the shit hits the fan...
Do you feel like having Hull Breach or whatever in your sideboard would have made a difference in either of those matches?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I don't like having artifact hate in the SB against MUD because I can rarely wish and use said card. Between wasteland, Golem, Chalice, and/or Trinisphere it is tough to Wish and use a card from your SB. Or you use all your resources grabbing a Spree or Hull Breach to kill 1-3 artifacts, but to only have the MUD player rebuild his board before we can storm out.
Enchantress is the opposite problem. This is a fairly straightforward and easy matchup which doesn't feel like we need help outside of a couple CoVs. Also, Iggy and PiF are both awesome in this matchup.
I have MUD and TES both. So when playing tes you should do storm on t1 or 2 after that its usually too late. Weakness of mud is mulligan if I have any decent hand lets say t2 metalworker with lodestone i keep against tes. Because mulligan can give like 1 land and 5 five or six costers. Of course once I had nuts start like t1 chalice @0 and 1. T2 and 3 golems and game was over.
Hi all,
I've been testing the Cabal Therapys in other builds and I think they re really strong, I'm planning to change the Side as follows:
From:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
To:
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
I'd like to know if somebody else is testing C.Therapys in main. Or any other is fallen in love with Therapy.
The changes to the side are logic: Simply take out 2 Xantid and 1 A.Decay in the form of more disruption.
Also Therapy is great in conjuntion with CoV.
I noticed that vs S&T the Full Disruption package is great as well as vs Discard Decks like Jund or Team America variants.
I know Xantid is great vs S&T and Reanimator, 2 of the match ups I find more in my meta, this is the only reason to play Xantid instead Therapy.
I'm not sure if this will make sense.
Also, The Silence vs Therapy in main, I understand has been tested, but, again, I'd like to know thoutghs if any has been trying to develop or test something like this.
The fact is that the most I play Therapy The most I Like it.
Have you really a plan for boarding in all those Therapies? Which matchups which can't be handled via eot Chain/Decay, untap, win or by maxing silence effects with swarms, would you like a adress with Therapies?
I think he just really likes it, but let him test it and he'll come back around to the OP list.
Mentally preparing for another tournament tonight with Bribery in side (chop Decays Down to 2). Have to take the train and borrow cards again though :/
Hope I can take notes again in stenography to produce another detailed report :)
Hi everyone !
I've been trying Time Spiral over Diminishing returns for a long time and my testing is working pretty well. Has anyone tried it too ?
In my opinion the two more mana needed to cast it are a necessary bad, because when you untap your lands you are on a better position than if you have diminishing return'd. Almost always you'll have at least 2-3 lands for untaping, and in long games it's a better option than DR too.
Best regards.
You must play another deck than me ... seriously ...Quote:
Originally Posted by plimplam
Maybe. I play Bryant 75 -1 Diminishing + 1 time spiral. Always that I use TS I have at least two lands, few times I have 3 lands, never four. That's why I said I always have 2-3 lands. So, better explained for you ? ^^
If you aim to play 5+ turns to have "at least 2-3 lands" in play and you go for TS and invest 8 mana doing so, I'm confident to say, you misplay the deck and/or have questionable decks/players you test against.Quote:
Originally Posted by plimplam
Do you know what a burning wish target is ? Situational cards. There are matches and situations where the deck doesn't have to be to fast as it could be. In some matchups you can wait until turn 5+, if you are a robot piloting the deck and you say " I have to go for it turn 5- " you will loose ton of matches because of that. Sometimes there's no problem for keeping a slow hand. Even Bryant said that not far along. But maybe you don't read too much about the deck. You talk as I always go for it turn 5+, well, I do when I have to, sorry if this disturbs you.
An advice for you, try to be more flexible and maybe you can learn a bit more. :)
Yeah, I sure have no clue: latest reportQuote:
Originally Posted by plimplam
Wish targets aren't "situational"; PIF, IGG and DR are additional Storm engines. Read Bryants take on DR vs. TS if you try to use his quotes for justification
I've done the 4 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy MD before, unless you're trying to play with more fetch lands and basic lands or you're trying to win faster by playing on color disruption in order to avoid the first or second land drop problem that Silence has for white mana then there isn't a reason to play all discard compared to Silence, discard and Xantid Swarm because it gives Leyline of Sanctity and Sensei's Divining Top additional EV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
It's viable, it's just not necessarily best.
I' m tired of loosing my time with you. You have the absloute truth abput everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
@Final Fortune Also:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
This is the main goal.
I tryed only once the Timo Build and felt how good therapys are, I'm not able to do not agree with him when he says 'Therapy is the way to go'.
The match ups I won (9-1 with Timo List) were mainly because of the absurd quantity of discard the deck packaged, so the strategy was simply: to discard the oponnent, draw Bomb and just win. I noticed then how easy the S&T Match up was with 10 Discard effects, a Match Up I fear with TES for second and 3rd games.
Also in my meta the BUG variants with Hymn, T.Seize, and discard are a lot, and the best way to fight this is 'Figth Fire with Fire' as Metallica Song says. Silence is good but not vs Discard decks.
I recognize that the Reanimator match up goes worse because of not having Xantid, but we again are using 8 Discard effects,
The fact that you can go with Empty in base and sacrifice a Goblin for flashback seems to me another thing to have in mind with 4 therapys. This can provoke to not to take out Empty for second or third games even if you suspect massive removal, as Therapoy will help us with this.
I'm not going to test the No Silence version yet, but If I would I will put 3 duress 4 Therapys and let 2 Inquisition + 1 Duress in Side. I would take out also the CityOfBrass for more fetches.
As said, I do not intend to touch the base but, the other day winning the Tournament making 9-1 with that Timo List openend my eyes to a new world in which Therapy is the king. I think Silence is good in the base because of its Inevitability and seems quicker (I say quicker because sometimes you need to wait with therapy to guess what the oponent can have in hand), so at the moment I'll put them in side. I think those slots are the correct ones.