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Archetype of Endurance is the card to double down with, it's him plus Griselbrand. Always him plus one. Solo he's underwhelming. Last I heard Stryfo still likes him, and that's how he utilizes it in matches.
If you're in the "one creature is all I need" camp then Inkwell is better.
Yeah, I still prefer Archetype for my own style, but inkwell is by far the best solo shroud creature.
Is it better to play one of these hexproof creatures in the main or in the side? In what meta would you generally want to play one in the main?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryfo
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My opinion is that having access to one shroud creature in the main gives you a lot of extra game against DnT, lands, and gwx decks. I also really like archetype specifically against miracles as they can't beat archetype plus Iona white. If you don't expect these decks, or like your game 1 against them enough, put your shroud dude in the board.
Anyone has feedback on Magister of Worth? There may be some merit having it in the main as an out when the opponent has assembled a formidable board state. It is also a great target for Exhume as you pretty much blank the creature the opponent is returning.
Magister of Worth doesn't solve many problems (if hatebears were out, you aren't getting this one in play anyways). It's definitely as castable as Grave Titan (if you have white mana in your build), but I think Elesh Norn is generally the better and safer play. Now vs decks that use SnT, this is a great card to put in Elesh Norn's place out of the SB (but you'd still rather have Ashen Rider I think).Quote:
Originally Posted by RNGesus
The card feels better suited to LED decks, specifically TinFins (which does run white for Mentor or SFM sideboards). Also with LEDs you potentially get to use Unburial Rites, though it doubles down on the zone you don't want to.
It is great that Magister's default mode is wrath, but Elesh does the same work most of the time. She also doesn't wrath your own creatures.
The real key is any future creatures coming into play. Dredge, elves, and infect can all rebuild and come back after a Magister. Not after an Elesh Norn though; she's a stone-cold silver bullet G1 (some exceptions to this like MD Karakas). They're locked out and can't do anything.
Has anyone looked into using any of the gearhulks from kaladesh?
I do not think that any of the hulks ist even close to the Creatures we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by rgrintz
I've been seeing more and more lists running Chancellor of the Annex, sometimes as many as 4. Isn't that old school tech? I haven't seen that in ages, why is it all of a sudden coming back?
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Because being faster is becoming increasingly important in the current metagame in the face of a new breed of Death and Taxes, many strong, cheap graveyard hate choices are available, some of which are an integral part of the main decks (DRS). They are also a threat as well as disruption all in one.
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Chancellors are also more often featured in non-U versions of reanimator which are more linear, faster, and really all-in on beating up fair decks.
Thanks, was just about to ask about that!Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
It's been about a year since I've actually played, so I haven't played the Eldrazi matchup. What's our best silver bullet versus Eldrazi?
Difficult to say. I've started including Blazing Archon in my side for the matchup, but my meta is 100% on the White Eldrazi plan, and Eldrazi Displacer & Containment Priest effect some dangerous synergy upon my board. No creature offers the self-protection whilst delaying their own fast clock. I guess the cop out would be to suggest Archetype of Endurance & any other card.
Against the strictly MUD versions, my understanding is Blazing Archon is indeed a hard lock for them, while Tidespout Tyrant can also hobble them effectively.
Sphinx of the steel wind is also very difficult for them to beat, and better in the delver matchups than archon.
Congratulations to Nicholas Santini. He reached 5th at ethernal extravaganza with a cool reanimator list!
Dear Nicholas, if you ready this, can you tell us some things about you deck?
- How did the Researcher perform?
- What can you tell us about you landbase?
- Why is there no shroud creature?
- What is your bording Plan (D&t, Eldrazi, miracles)?
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Reanimator
4 Lotus Petal
4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Force of Will
4 Exhume
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
3 Griselbrand
3 Daze
3 Ponder
2 Hapless Researcher
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Show and Tell
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Island
Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Show and Tell
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Massacre
1 Grave Titan
1 Collective Brutality
With the rise in BR reanimators, I hate not being the fastest combo deck at my LGS anymore.
I was under the impression that we were favored against BR but tonight was the second time I faced it and he T1'd me twice, just like last week.
Can't even fight through T1 reanimation because of Chancelor... life is hard for UB reanimator.
The good news is that there are 8x FoWs not called FoW: Surgical and Noxious Revival. Surgical is fine (unnecessary, but fine) in the board, but consider Noxious x2 main if you want to plow through Chancellors early. Fire off FoW first into the daze-angel then time walk them with Noxious or reverse the order if you've got the Reanimate in hand. There are also plenty of looping tricks with Noxious + dredge mechanic/Hapless that keep Exhume (on the stack) live as you potentially cycle a fatty targeted by Surgical to library and back to yard, breaking Surgical's targeting. Other benefits include making 2nd land drop off same fetch and shrugging off discard if it's in your hand. There are a couple of other 0 mana options, but they're less applicable to other matchups and just worse (ESG/SSG or Gemstone Caverns gambling).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
Hello all,
I've recently taken up Reanimator in an attempt to learn how to play a second Legacy deck. (I've been playing RG Lands for a couple years but would like to master another archetype, if that's possible.) So, as a new Reanimator player, I'd like to field some questions:
1. Having played both UB and BR for a little bit, I feel like UB is less clunky and more versatile, if a turn slower. What's the general consensus on the weaknesses and strengths of each build?
2. I've seen some lists run Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the sideboard. Given that his best ability seems to involve graveyard interaction and that we're sure to see graveyard hate in games two and three, why should we run him?
3. Do we ever board out Force of Will?
4. What do we usually cut when we need to bring in cards like Pithing Needle or Abrupt Decay?
5. When should we bring in a card like Show and Tell? How about Echoing Truth?
6. Other tips or interactions I should know about?
Thanks in advance.
1. Do you mind playing a deck that people can just choose not to lose to? If the answer is no, you just can't play B/R. Unlike B/R, U/B is more likely to win a post-board game through hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigapatrick
2. Flip-Jace is tailor-made for Reanimator. You can count on a given deck in legacy running 2x Surgicals in the board; but after this falling way down in % chance you'll be up against RiP/Leyline/Macabre - and of those 3, Leyline is probably the most likely (except DnT which classically run RiP, and still has it). Worst case scenario, he'll be a looter; best case, you'll be able to fix the inconsistencies inherent in board games.
3. Unlikely; maybe vs game action decks like Dredge. If you'd want to draw into FoW with Grisel, they're staying in.
4. Shaving 9-10th reanimation effect, cutting some number of Careful Study, and other cuts come out of Daze & discard slots. Reanimation targets are generally swapped 1:1. Cutting a land or some number of Petals (depending on build) is not uncommon.
5. The simple answer is post-board games where they bring in hate vs graveyard without also overloading discard or keeping you from 3 mana.
6. We're actually a Delver deck in disguise, Reanimate targeting their threats is very live.
Advice on when to board him in?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I think at this point he's usually getting maindeck play; regardless, probably less optimal vs Revoker decks and not likely to be relevant vs non-FoW combo decks. Could also see cutting it vs 6-8x red blast decks like Painter. If you're going to get into turn three and are interested in flip-jace/Reanimate game (he dies to removal, Reanimate him, and have Reanimate 'flashback' on a later turn) or feel like you'll have time to Entomb an instant/sorc target, it's probably best to include him.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigapatrick
1. Having played both UB and BR for a little bit, I feel like UB is less clunky and more versatile, if a turn slower. What's the general consensus on the weaknesses and strengths of each build?
You pretty much have it. BR is fast, and aims to come under a lot of opponent's hate. Lots of fast mana, but without blue they can't do much than play the 7 they opened with. UB has moved from trying to keep up in terms of speed and is more wiling to take a turn to sculpt if it means landing a T2 with protection. BR tends to lean more on Sire of Insanity for the early lock, for them Griselbrand is good but they don't have any counterspells to draw into. I stopped running my Sire after OmniTell go neutered and Eldrazi became a thing.
2. I've seen some lists run Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the sideboard. Given that his best ability seems to involve graveyard interaction and that we're sure to see graveyard hate in games two and three, why should we run him?
I don't recommend flip Jace in the side, if you run him he's in the main. You're right that we're not looking to double down on graveyard effects after sideboard. We're generally favored preboard in most of our matches, so diversifying our threats to close out any postboard games should be the focus. For a lot of players he is too slow, and when he helps win you've already won with other cards in hand.
3. Do we ever board out Force of Will?
Not really, no. Like Fox said, maybe against Dredge, but they'll still have haymakers like Dread Return, so I wouldn't.
4. What do we usually cut when we need to bring in cards like Pithing Needle or Abrupt Decay?
Postboard I cut my Dazes for Abrupt Decay against most opponents. I have flex slots currently held by Thoughtseize and Izzet Charm, and those usually get filled by cards better serving the deck I'm facing. Try and replace cards in purpose with those that do it better; reactive protection that could be better served by an early proactive protection.
5. When should we bring in a card like Show and Tell? How about Echoing Truth?
As above, replace cards in kind. Show and Tell should be replacing Animate Dead or Exhume. Bring it in any time you think they might try and mess with your graveyard (ie every game ever). Echoing Truth gets picked if I suspect Leyline of the Void or I see death by tokens in my near future. In almost every other instance I'm better served by Abrupt Decay.
6. Other tips or interactions I should know about?
Like Fox said, don't forget Reanimate and Animate Dead allow you to pick from any graveyard. They might be fringe cases, but I've won games by getting their own Deathrite Shaman and eating stuff in response to their own DRS. I've stolen a Miracle player's Snapcaster Mage to flashback Entomb to find Iona and lock the game. Manaless Dredge with Chancellor of the Annex is just mean, but I've done it.
You can Thoughtseize yourself in a pinch.
It can be mana intensive, but since Exhume doesn't target, you can respond to an effect with an Entomb and get something through a DRS or Surgical Extraction.
Against white decks you can protect a Tidespout Tyrant brought back with Animate Deck from StP by bouncing the enchantment.
Good luck with the deck.
I think PirateKing has offered excellent advice, the only thing I would disagree with is JVP in the main vs. sideboard. I think JVP is a good sideboard card and a terrible maindeck card.
UB Reanimator certainly isn't as fast as BR Reanimator but it's still a blazing fast combo deck game 1. A two mana spell which doesn't have any impact the turn it's played is simply too slow for what you want to be doing. Sideboard games are much grindier however due to all the hate opponents are gonna bring in. Those are the games where you can get away with playing JVP. Additionally, JVP maindeck turns on a lot of removal spells like Bolt and Decay and PFire that would normally be close to blanks for your opponent game 1. In sideboarded games, you can expect those cards to be removed, and that's when JVP really shines because he can go to work on the board with a much greater chance of you untapping with him.
I can understand the concern with boarding in another card that's reliant on the graveyard to generate maximum value, but I've found that I flash back a lot of spells that the opponents usually ignore, especially with Miracles and Delver decks moving toward Surgical as their main form of graveyard hate. Flashing back Thoughtseize or Collective Brutality to nab another piece of hate out of their hand feels great and even flashing back Ponder is perfectly fine - if they want to waste Surgical on one of those cards to "counter" it, I'd chalk that up as a win for Reanimator. Yeah, JVP sucks against Leyline of the Void decks (Eldrazi) and RiP decks (pretty much only D&T these days), but I wouldn't want him against Eldrazi anyways, and the downside is he's a looter every turn that can get you closer to finding an Abrupt Decay or Massacre against D&T.
To add about Echoing Truth, it's useful in a lot of situations AD isn't:
- Surprise answer to Marit Lage.
- In the mirror; their Iona is going to name black most of the time to stop your reanimation cold and to get around your Surgicals. Echoing Truth gets rid of it while AD can't.
- ET is blue and keeps your blue count up for FoW post-board.
- Hits multiples. This is not only relevant versus Goblin and Elemental tokens. Deathrite Shaman is the most played creature in the format by far, so the opponent slamming T1 Shaman on the play followed by another the next turn is something that's going to be pretty common over time. A single ET before the combo turn fixes this. Same is obviously true versus multiple G Cages (played a lot in my area), Chalices on one, Thorn of Amethysts/Sphere of Resistances, etc...watch out for Relic of Progenitus though because them sacrificing the targeted one makes ET fizzle, so it won't get the others. (All of these situations have come up for me before.)
- Doesn't require fetching an off-colour dual. Reanimator can have limited mana sometimes as-is. This can help versus Blood Moon/Magus/Back to Basics because you can cast ET off a basic Island, whereas Reanimator will probably never run a Forest for AD.
- ET is not nearly as good as AD versus Counterbalance, Chalice on two (totally ineffective here), or Containment Priest. These are the main reasons AD's "can't be countered" clause and destroy effect matter. In many other cases, the counterspell they're using on Echoing Truth would just have been used on Reanimate/Exhume anyway, and permanent-based hate other than Containment Priest doesn't have Flash so an end-step bounce is (usually) just as good.
Basically, I advocate bringing in at least one ET in addition to ADs. I personally don't splash for ADs and I do fine, but there are no Miracles players in my area other than me so I don't have to worry about Counterbalance. I def would run them if my area had a proper amount of Miracles.
With all the recent hype about our R/B brother deck I started to notice that some of our old sideboard enemys came back.
I did not miss that black leyline for a bit!
I thought about adding some Collective Brutality and moving away from my S&Ts. Now I am not sure about it.
What are your thoughts on Brutality and countering the black leyline?
If you're worried about Leyline of the Void I would think you'd move towards Show and Tell rather than away. Also more copies of Echoing Truth in the board would help, in addition to Golgari Charm.
Collective Brutality shines against Deathrite Shaman and Counterspells. Probably ideal versus Grixis Delver and BUG Delver if there's a lot of that in your area. I have yet to play test the card as I like Thoughtseize's ability to discard enchantment and artifact based hate, plus Containment Priest. CB CAN kill Priest, but not when they flash it in while Reanimate is on the stack.
Anybody test Demon of Dark Schemes vs. Elesh yet? Non-legendary with Massacre and reanimation built in...too cute?
Isn't Massacre Wurm better than this card, since it has the chance to kill the opponent on the spot?Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Beat me to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigapatrick
My thinking was that you wanted that kind of effect to kill hatebears, and that if there were enough for Wurm's lifeloss to have that much of an impact you probably wouldn't be able to get it into play anyway. Maybe the same case for new guy, and actual Massacre is just better than both. I do like the fact that he gives you a non-spell way to reanimate something else in case there are flickerwisp shenanigans or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigapatrick
The issue with Demon of the Dark Schemes is you potentially wrath the board, have all this energy, and then he dies to StP before you untap and have a way to spend any energy? The card is functionally the same as Magister of Worth which was recently discussed.
You can't use the it dies to STP argument. its the same with elesh norn. Besides, this wouldn't be the first card you reanimate. It would always and should be Grisel and/or archetype.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Elesh should be the finisher.
The funny thing is here that they don't realize that the 4 Griselbrand/4 Chancellor/1 Children of Korlis/1 Tendrils of Agony package is much better than their "stock" lists with Sires. This deck becomes a monster when playing the Tendrils-kill but yeah, UB plays mtg at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
You have to wait a full turn for an untap step to even make energy a resource you can use, the trigger has to resolve with this guy still having just entered play to get energy in the first place. So like Magister you spend 2 cards (also possibly 6 life), you wrath their board, and...probably just lose from that point. You're asking for a lot from this card if you think you'll be able to get 4 energy and also spend it (again that's 4 guys have to die for the value text to mean anything). A one-time wrath creature isn't good enough; Elesh is an ongoing wrath effect that also protects your life total with keyword vigilance, Ashen Rider while narrower is more likely to win in a precise scenario. This is a smaller, flying Massacre Wurm - and there's a very real chance that the drain 2 life clause would translate into more win %age. Demon of Dark Schemes is a cool card, the ideas behind it are especially neat in the limited format; but it's not going to win games for us in legacy without having Hexproof/Shroud or a novel combination like Protection from White + Trample.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
On a side note, you don't always get to choose what to Reanimate based on opening hands and what a card like Careful Study finds - you will have games where this will be the first guy you have to bring back; any reanimation target has to be looked at with this in mind. Even Archetype of Endurance is a controversial inclusion in U/Bx in part b/c of this scenario (though it also lacks trample, costs 8 life, and is a bit winmore-ish since you're saying that you're comboing the second time while the first target is still in play).
So basically Tin Fins with Chancellor? Or is this a totally separate deck? I've been wondering for a while actually what the advantages of BR Reanimator are over Tin Fins. If you want a faster Griselbrand reanimator deck, why not play the one that actually wins the turn it gets Griselbrand into play?Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
I don't necessarily disagree, but I just want to point out that his ability does not require tapping. So while it may be a long shot, there is the potential to use it immediately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
@Ephemeron: TinFins also has a way better name, and all the sexiest players. Also a secret handshake, it's own cocktail, and secret late-night menu at Grizzlebees.
Dick go home you're drunk :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
If this is all true, how come BR Reanimator puts up great results recently in major tournaments, while UB Reanimator hardly tops? I don't mean this in a sarcasic, negative way, but seriously, isn't there something else than a sudden rise in popularity making this deck spike due to the amount it's being played?Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
It is probably so that the loss of consistency is compensated by the sheer speed (outpacing the hate rather than answering it), and that Collective Brutality is a beastly card for BR-reanimator and much harder to play in UB because of the number of blue cards needed for FOW.