[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

I would be tempted to run top in this deck over ponder. Without force we do not need the blue of ponder and with vet we have spare mana. This deck also runs very light on mana so a mana sink for games where you have to keep a suspect hand is fine. I would also wonder if probe has any place. I know Arianrhod you are not a fan of it in Nicfit but we are now a combo deck and the information is crucial. Especially post board where lord knows what type of hate we will see. everything from surgical to rip to just more counters to containment priest. I would try to fit 4 probe. most likely this would be to shave a jace or 2 and possibly a land and the recurring nightmare.

Do you have a plan post board? Or really, do you plan to remain the same deck with adjustments or have a slightly transformational SB? I know you are a vintage player so this would be akin to how Oath is used occiasionally in that it can be boarded out and (usually) walkers get brought in or in that some decks bring in oath vs creature decks.

I would stay away from Pod, delve creatures (though a dig or 2 would probably be ok) and consider shaving 1 show. What I do like about show in this deck is it essentially is just a second copy of a titan because we can then cast the monster.

If we have the loam package in the board I would actually consider a boseju. If we did have that would exhume be better in order to make it resolve vs smth like reanimate? Just a thought.

Tangle Golem/Allosaurus Rider > Griselbrand :cool:

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Originally Posted by Dissection

Tangle Golem/Allosaurus Rider > Griselbrand :cool:

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Gurmag Angler :wink:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Sideboard will include an Elesh Norn, a Life from the Loam, and 13 other cards.

There's one open fatty slot maindeck for something that I haven't figured out yet. Shaving a Show and Tell is also possible, but I'm not sure what else I'm missing. This is also 60 cards because of the much more combo oriented nature of the deck and the degree to which it wants certain things in its opening hand.

Thoughts and suggestions, please! We have a day to get this thing into first draft status so it can be jammed on Saturday.

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I would cut AD for Ponder.

I am planning on taking this list to a SCGIQ next weekend:

Creatures:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Eternal Witness
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1x Siege Rhino
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
1x Primeval Titan

Spells:
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter

Land:
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
2x Bayou
3x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Scrubland
4x Forest
1x Savannah

Sideboard
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Council's Judgment
2x Engineered Plague
1x Life from the Loam
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Spike Weaver
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Yeva, Nature's Herald

Any criticisms or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you.

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
2 Show and Tell
1 Life from the Loam

4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb

1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

//sb
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Massacre Wurm
2 Duress

This is the list I settled on to test at Mythic today. I went 3-2, finishing 11 out of 28. Considering I how cold I went into this event, that's actually a very solid result and I'll be continuing to work on the deck.

Played vs the following:

Imperial Painter (loss)
Junk Stoneforge (win)
Elves (win)
UR Delver (loss)
Shardless BUG (win)

Both of the losses were super close -- I was consistently one turn behind Imperial and his draws were very good on top of that, and all of my games vs UR Delver were very tight and a couple of different draws or slightly weaker Digs by my opponent could've easily tipped that.

All of my wins felt pretty solid. Junkblade was probably the hardest matchup of the matches I won, but I still felt pretty favored.

Quick hits and misses because I'm tired and want to sleep:

Hits:
Babiest Jace feels like The Truth. The card does some very unfair things, both in general and in this deck specifically.
the sideboarded TNNs were amazing
Entomb's raw flexibility is amazing -- entombing Cabal Therapy is the greatest feeling in the world, as is using Entomb as a literal 1-mana instant tutor when you have a flipped Jace.
Thrags were great when they showed up.
Never thought I'd say this, but Grave Titan was very strong. I guess making the card cost 2 or 3 mana makes it actually playable.
Reanimate for value. I reanimated multiple Veterans, Jace-Vyrns, Strixes, and opponent cards over the course of the event. All of them felt correct and powerful.
Show and Tell -- as exactly a 2 of. I wasn't high on the card going into the event, but as a 2-of it was actually fine. I would not run more.

Misses:
Thragtusk never being drawn.
Oddly, the Primeval package. I only went for it like two or three times on the day, and I only actually made one Merit Lage. The other two times I grabbed the lands, I ended up having -better- things to do than make a 20/20.
On the subject of lands, I actually felt like I was a land heavy. Brainstorms, Entombs and Reanimates to tie Veterans together tighter, Loam....all combined to make me want to draw fewer lands than usual.
Baleful Strix was added as a way to sneak in some "removal" interaction while also cycling. It did not feel as good in this deck as I expected it to. They, or some number of them, may still be correct...not sure.
Overall, the Snapcaster. It did threaten a HILARIOUSLY broken line of play involving Nightmare and an Entomb in my yard once, but overall the Jace-Vryns did what Snap wants to do, but better.
Iona was hot garbage, but I didn't play against Omni on the day. She threatened to steal g1 from Painter, though, so that's something. She's probably a necessity (also for burn), but it doesn't feel good.
The sideboard other than the TNNs. I boarded in the Grips and the Decays a fair amount, but I had trouble drawing into them. Massacre Wurm happened vs Elves but should've prob just been Elesh.

To sum:

Probably dropping the Primeval package.
Probably just cutting a land or possibly even 2 (21-22 final).
I need more ways to make Entomb valuable as a CA engine when there's nothing else to do with it. I had a couple of late Entombs that were useless on the day, so having more sweet spells to Entomb is on my short list.
I need to be a little more interactive maindeck. I miss having removal and sweepers, and I want some amount of it back. I realize I'm not going to be able to have as much as a traditional Nic Fit variety, but I want some maindeck.

That's all I can think of for now. More in the morning if there's questions/comments.

Oh, and I did try Ponder @Ralf. They didn't feel right at all -- that's where the Strix idea came from, actually. I felt I wanted more creatures and to be doing more things rather than just cantripping more, so I moved them into the Strixes from there. But yeah, they were in for probably 6-8 games Friday night and just did not feel right. Same with Probe, which was also tried. Actually, with Probe the problem was more the life loss than the deck slot being eaten. 2 life doesn't seem that incredibly steep, but it actually caused issues.

PS / closing thought: best moment of the day.
Vs Elves, g1.

Swamp go into forest symbiote go.
fetch, break, therapy myself naming Grave Titan, reanimate Grave Titan, sac a token to flashback Therapy, target him, name Elvish Visionary, hit two.
t3 swing, snapcaster reanimate a visionary.

I won that game.

So I've been mulling over the Leap deck some more, and figure this would be a good core:

4x Veteran Explorer
4x Evolutionary Leap
4x Living Wish
4x Enlightened Tutor
Lots of basics (mostly forests)
Fetchlands + 1x Dryad Arbor

Where I'm undecided now is how to fill out the rest of the deck. Should I look more into an Enchantress package for card advantage and prison pieces? Perhaps the Helm/RIP combo, or just some planeswalkers for value? Also, what are some good noncreature Enlightened Tutor pieces that would help with protecting me and the combo?

@Arianrhod: that's the first time in a long time I'm excited about a Nic Fit built. One omission that immediately jumps at me is Glen Elendra Archmage. I'm also toying with Sylvan Library. It interacts amusingly with Jace and helps with all the one-offs and situational fatties (Top might be good here as well, but I got the impression this deck wants to play a pretty aggressive and mana-efficient game). Also, FOW in the sideboard makes combo much less scary.

Anyone has a updated Junk nic-fit list? At least 3 rhinos and nightmare in the deck.

Is Sun Titan good or just cute in the junk nic fit?

Sun titan is just cute you are better served with a grave titan and there's better options. The second sigarda or the first dromoka are better evasive threats with some level of protection. You're going to want something game breaking at six mana in junk fit the four and five drops just keep getting better leaving no room for titans.

I personally still like the Sun Titan, but I tend to play more controlly and titandeed is just too insane when you're playing for control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ganfar

Anyone has a updated Junk nic-fit list? At least 3 rhinos and nightmare in the deck.

Is Sun Titan good or just cute in the junk nic fit?

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The few times I played sun titan I always wanted Grave. If you are splashing white I would strongly suggest 2-3 academy rectors for various and assorted bombs.


Arianrhod,
That list is absolutely outstanding!

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

4 Veteran Explorer
Misses:
Thragtusk never being drawn.
Oddly, the Primeval package. I only went for it like two or three times on the day, and I only actually made one Merit Lage. The other two times I grabbed the lands, I ended up having -better- things to do than make a 20/20.
On the subject of lands, I actually felt like I was a land heavy. Brainstorms, Entombs and Reanimates to tie Veterans together tighter, Loam....all combined to make me want to draw fewer lands than usual.
Baleful Strix was added as a way to sneak in some "removal" interaction while also cycling. It did not feel as good in this deck as I expected it to. They, or some number of them, may still be correct...not sure.
Overall, the Snapcaster. It did threaten a HILARIOUSLY broken line of play involving Nightmare and an Entomb in my yard once, but overall the Jace-Vryns did what Snap wants to do, but better.
Iona was hot garbage, but I didn't play against Omni on the day. She threatened to steal g1 from Painter, though, so that's something. She's probably a necessity (also for burn), but it doesn't feel good.
The sideboard other than the TNNs. I boarded in the Grips and the Decays a fair amount, but I had trouble drawing into them. Massacre Wurm happened vs Elves but should've prob just been Elesh.

To sum:

Probably dropping the Primeval package.
Probably just cutting a land or possibly even 2 (21-22 final).
I need more ways to make Entomb valuable as a CA engine when there's nothing else to do with it. I had a couple of late Entombs that were useless on the day, so having more sweet spells to Entomb is on my short list.
I need to be a little more interactive maindeck. I miss having removal and sweepers, and I want some amount of it back. I realize I'm not going to be able to have as much as a traditional Nic Fit variety, but I want some maindeck.

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I'm kind of new to the format but I'm really intrigued by this list, so here's some ideas towards the changes you advocated.

-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Thespian's Stage
-1 Baleful Strix
+1 Elesh Norn
+1 Wasteland
+2 Pernicious Deed

Wasteland can be entombed if you have a life from the loam in hand, or, more often, you can entomb for life from the loam to start a wasteland engine.
Elesh norn seems pretty decent considering the multitude of cheap creatures you play: Strix, Jace, Snapcaster, Explorer.
Pernicious deed is obvious but is a good sweeper for delver and such. Doesn't play the best with Strix and Jace but you can always try to flip Jace before you activate deed.

I had a few ideas for sideboard entomb targets, including Memory's Journey, Deep Analysis, and Vengeful Pharaoh. Pharaoh seems potentially very powerful, turning your entomb into a kill spell that is uncounterable once entomb has resolved. Pharaoh also plays well with Jace and in a pinch, a 5 mana 5/4 deathtouch isn't the worst think you could cast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Julien

I'm kind of new to the format but I'm really intrigued by this list, so here's some ideas towards the changes you advocated.

-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Thespian's Stage
-1 Baleful Strix
+1 Elesh Norn
+1 Wasteland
+2 Pernicious Deed

Wasteland can be entombed if you have a life from the loam in hand, or, more often, you can entomb for life from the loam to start a wasteland engine.
Elesh norn seems pretty decent considering the multitude of cheap creatures you play: Strix, Jace, Snapcaster, Explorer.
Pernicious deed is obvious but is a good sweeper for delver and such. Doesn't play the best with Strix and Jace but you can always try to flip Jace before you activate deed.

I had a few ideas for sideboard entomb targets, including Memory's Journey, Deep Analysis, and Vengeful Pharaoh. Pharaoh seems potentially very powerful, turning your entomb into a kill spell that is uncounterable once entomb has resolved. Pharaoh also plays well with Jace and in a pinch, a 5 mana 5/4 deathtouch isn't the worst think you could cast.

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I came to a couple of these conclusions myself. My current list is thus:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Aetherling
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
1 Griselbrand

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
2 Show and Tell
1 Life from the Loam
1 Deep Analysis
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

//sb
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Krosan Grip
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Glen Elendra Archmage

General thoughts:

It's possibly correct to keep the Iona maindeck just to really stick it to Omni, but I want to test Sphinx of Uthuun. I will not definitively say that that guy will be staying in the deck.

Aetherling fills the Primeval Titan slot as "here is a win condition that is a royal pain in the ass to deal with." Unlike Titan/Depths, it's much less clunky and will actually beat Miracles since they can never get rid of it as long as you're intelligent about leaving phasing mana up.

I really wanted more interaction in the deck, and there were multiple times on the day where I wanted Pernicious Deed. That being said, we're running Brainstorm and we're also not as much of a control deck as traditional Nic Fit, so I opted for only two copies. I also for sure wanted a spot removal spell that I could entomb to flashback with Jace. Pulse is the strongest option here by far since you're spending 0 mana on the flashback itself, and Pulse will answer the widest array of problems.

Continuing with Entomb value, I put in a Deep Analysis. 3 life for 2 cards is a steeper rate than I really want to play, but being able to turn Entomb into cards is just too relevant to ignore, and Think Twice is not even close to as good as DA.

The Wasteland is mostly for problem lands like Karakas, Tabernacle, Creeping Tar Pit, etc. Obviously some percentage of games we can do obnoxious things with Loam, but I don't expect that to happen very often.

I cut the 4th Strix and the Snapcaster to make room for the Deeds, which I think is fine. Losing a Strix was a little unfortunate, but there wasn't really any other space to make if I wanted to fit in everything new.

Sideboard mostly just features a couple of upgrades (Massacre Wurm -> Elesh, etc). I thought about running Force of Will in the sideboard, but realistically I don't know that I want to go down the road of double 4-ofs in the board. The TNNs already eat up a lot of space, but they're also basically necessary as a strong plan B post-board -- my common board plan involving them was -2 Entomb, -2 Reanimate, +4 TNN, which actually worked quite nicely. I also like diversifying the sideboard, as most of you know, and I think that 2 Duress 2 Flusterstorm is probably a stronger sideboard than 4 Force of Will in those slots.

I'm probably not going to be able to really test this any further until my local runs legacy again in two weeks, so by all means throw it together and get some work done. This deck actually felt very strong...weird, but very strong. My best advice I can give from a play perspective as opposed to a building one is to -always- keep your options open. As much as Entomb-Reanimate is nice, it's not actually always the plan. Be flexible at all times, keep in mind that your opponents' graveyard is your playground as much as your own is, and that Entomb can solve basically any problem you might be having, somehow.

I'm considering an Abzan colored Living Wish build with some bullets in the side and the DarkStage combo. Has it been tried with any success in the not too distant past? Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

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Originally Posted by Moroklumpen

I'm considering an Abzan colored Living Wish build with some bullets in the side and the DarkStage combo. Has it been tried with any success in the not too distant past? Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

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If you have your heart set on this route I would strongly suggest running KORT's, and maybe crop rotations. I have seen a couple of junk type lists of this sort.

Knight of the Reliquary is one of my favorite cards ever, and one of my incentives to try such a build. I'm less enthusiastic about Crop Rotation; I like it but the idea is that Living Wish will fill that role with a bit more reliability (at the cost of EoT shenanigans, I know).

Page 91 has my current crop rotation kotr list its a couple cards off but its a good starting point to tweak to your liking. I know ive cut atleast one land since then I believe a Savannah.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moroklumpen

I'm considering an Abzan colored Living Wish build with some bullets in the side and the DarkStage combo. Has it been tried with any success in the not too distant past? Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

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I had a list a while ago that was running living wish package with feeder/thune combo. Didn't have dark depths combo though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

It's possibly correct to keep the Iona maindeck just to really stick it to Omni, but I want to test Sphinx of Uthuun. I will not definitively say that that guy will be staying in the deck.

Aetherling fills the Primeval Titan slot as "here is a win condition that is a royal pain in the ass to deal with." Unlike Titan/Depths, it's much less clunky and will actually beat Miracles since they can never get rid of it as long as you're intelligent about leaving phasing mana up.

I really wanted more interaction in the deck, and there were multiple times on the day where I wanted Pernicious Deed. That being said, we're running Brainstorm and we're also not as much of a control deck as traditional Nic Fit, so I opted for only two copies. I also for sure wanted a spot removal spell that I could entomb to flashback with Jace. Pulse is the strongest option here by far since you're spending 0 mana on the flashback itself, and Pulse will answer the widest array of problems.

Continuing with Entomb value, I put in a Deep Analysis. 3 life for 2 cards is a steeper rate than I really want to play, but being able to turn Entomb into cards is just too relevant to ignore, and Think Twice is not even close to as good as DA.

The Wasteland is mostly for problem lands like Karakas, Tabernacle, Creeping Tar Pit, etc. Obviously some percentage of games we can do obnoxious things with Loam, but I don't expect that to happen very often.

I cut the 4th Strix and the Snapcaster to make room for the Deeds, which I think is fine. Losing a Strix was a little unfortunate, but there wasn't really any other space to make if I wanted to fit in everything new.

Sideboard mostly just features a couple of upgrades (Massacre Wurm -> Elesh, etc). I thought about running Force of Will in the sideboard, but realistically I don't know that I want to go down the road of double 4-ofs in the board. The TNNs already eat up a lot of space, but they're also basically necessary as a strong plan B post-board -- my common board plan involving them was -2 Entomb, -2 Reanimate, +4 TNN, which actually worked quite nicely. I also like diversifying the sideboard, as most of you know, and I think that 2 Duress 2 Flusterstorm is probably a stronger sideboard than 4 Force of Will in those slots.

I'm probably not going to be able to really test this any further until my local runs legacy again in two weeks, so by all means throw it together and get some work done. This deck actually felt very strong...weird, but very strong. My best advice I can give from a play perspective as opposed to a building one is to -always- keep your options open. As much as Entomb-Reanimate is nice, it's not actually always the plan. Be flexible at all times, keep in mind that your opponents' graveyard is your playground as much as your own is, and that Entomb can solve basically any problem you might be having, somehow.

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Looks like 61 cards, is that intentional?

I proxied the deck and got a few matches in; will do many more this week but here's my two cents:

An entire third of the deck is CMC 1 (twenty cards). This makes early game Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance a real issue. For that reason, I think uncounterable answers to both cards are necessary (in the form of Abrupt Decay). Abrupt Decay is useful in general, stopping Lilianas and Stoneforges etc. Pernicious Deed and Maelstrom Pulse are both reasonable answers but they are much too slow to stop something like a turn 1 Chalice and can be countered.

Rather than run Deep Analysis, I think it is better to just cut an Entomb and see it less often. It will still be sub-par without another card backing it up but at least you won't draw it as often. There is still Cabal Therapy and Jace to put fatties in the yard, as well as simply having them get countered and reanimating them later.

I'd rather have Elesh Norn than Sphinx of Uthuun. Sphinx is great card advantage but the fact that Elesh can sweep the board as well as put you right back on the attack is huge. You can't hardcast her and some matchups she is relatively week, but you always get a big team buff which makes her pretty relevant.

I'd love to find a place for a Sylvan Library but at this point I can't think of a logical cut for it.

Overall changes:

-1 Sphinx of Uthuun
+1 Elesh Norn

-1 Deep Analysis
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Pernicious Deed
-1 Entomb
+3 Abrupt Decay

(from 61 to 60 cards)

I have hardcast Elesh Norn on multiple occasions. But that's me, I'm silly like that. It mostly takes a lot of patience. And 2 basic Plains. So that's a no-go for BUG Fit, lol.

I do agree with it being in the main 60 though. The chance of whiffing with that Sphinx is just too big. In most games, the opportunity to bring back a fattie succesfully presents itself only once, or twice at best. So when you do pull it off, you want to make sure it counts. Even if your opponent draws an answer to Elesh Norn the next turn, the damage will have been done. Same goes for the Aetherling, I'd switch that for Iona. You already have a better "look, here's a target - shoot it" in Grave Titan, Iona in the MB gives you an extra angle to attack any random deck.

Admittedly though I come from the Summoner's Egg school of doing things, so I'm spoiled by having GSZ to Fierce Empath and 4 MB Diabolic Intent to fetch the opportune fattie at any given moment (I even run an Emrakul for the hell of it). Surprisingly, Elesh Norn is often a better pick then Emrakul, lol.

On another note - Karador, Ghost Chieftain might be a nice fit for the standard Nic Fit build over Recurring Nightmare (given that the decks also runs a number of GSZ and at least 1 Fierce Empath). Seems like a nice value engine. Might just be too cute for it to be worth it though.

@Reanimation-Fit -I would still recommend probe in this deck. I would cut a land, the pulse, the loam and one of your fatty targets. I think the information is worth the loss of some flexible cards.

I am going to just run back the same list I played last week considering I went 3-0 in pretty convincing fashion I kind of feel obligated to give it another run. If I do poorly with it this week I will jump into the combo-Fit party.

Finally proxied up, did some goldfishing, and took the Leap build out for a test drive. This was my initial build (don't judge me too harshly, this is my first legacy deck):

Deck Core
4x Veteran Explorer
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Evolutionary Leap
4x Living Wish

Support
4x Mox Diamond
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Elephant Grass
1x Pithing Needle
2x Sylvan Library
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Smokestack
3x Lingering Souls
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Batterskull

Lands
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Savannah
1x Bayou
9x Forest
2x Plains
1x Swamp

Wishboard:
3x Thoughtseize
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Sundering Titan
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Eternal Witness
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog


Here's what I found:
-The "Explorer-Leap" combo is both easy to assemble and incredibly powerful. Getting a creature of some sort in play is effortless in a deck with this many token producers, Explorers, and fetches; Leap is essentially a one-card combo. Suffice to say I regularly found myself with 11 lands in play on turn 3.

-This build didn't have nearly enough interaction or powerful plays outside of Wish targets; opponents could afford to let the combo go off, counter Wish, and tempo me out from there. More action is necessary; a good X spell wouldn't go amiss. Any suggestions?

-The mana is pretty awful, but a consequence of wanting so many forests to go off. Mox Diamond was a godsend, letting me spew out lands a turn early and providing a convenient White or Black source later on.

-Getting cute with Enlightened Tutor targets in the maindeck was generally a bad idea. Elephant Grass was a bust, and Pithing Needle was unspectacular. Smokestack, however, was fantastic in the games it resolved.

@CountryCaravan: What I'm missing is a decent and robust clock. That's where and why you need more creatures. You also need a lot more removal, hence tempo decks still beating you down post-"combo" (if it doesn't win you the game/draw your entire deck, I don't count it as a combo) and you should never, ever cut Cabal Therapies from the MB. They're so incredibly important in disrupting your opponents' plan, which is ever so important if you're taking a combo-style approach to your win. You need to make absolutely sure your opponent cannot stop what you're trying to do post-combo.

Heck, if you were to give it another go I'd advice you to go up to 4 Cabal Therapy and add in 4 Thoughtseize or Duress to strip your opponents' hand clean before wishing for a win con. Also, add another basic swamp so you can get at least 2 discard spells off in 1 turn from Vet-Ex land.

If you'd like to explore trying to break leap id be looking at a scapeshift kill and burning wish.



4 leap
4 explorer
4 therapy
4 wish
3 scape
4 gsz
3 deed
3 top
1 intent
3 decay
4 ? Bolt/blast/probe/meta dependant

4 tiaga
3 badlands
2 bayou
2 mountain
2 valakult
1 swamp
6 forest
3 verdant catacombs

I'm looking at a Token/PW Build with Leap and Explorer/Rector.

Something like:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Academy Rector

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Evolutionary Leap
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Token-Producing Rector Target (Heliod?)
1 CA-Rector Target (Sylvan Library, Phyrexian Arena, Erebos?)
1 Mass Pump Rector Target (There's an enchantment which gives I think +3/+3, or maybe the Lifelink/Doublestrike Enchantment, since I want some Lifegain in here)

3/4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Lingering Souls

5/6 additional slots for finishers (I do like the Living Wish Idea here, since it allows to get around the Leap restriction, but not sure if I really want a big Toolbox in the SB, since I feel I have to devote quite some SB space to combo for games 2&3), maybe 2 Wishes as additional punches to get some game ending bombs and 3-4 Planeswalkers (2 Elspeth, 1 Sorin, 1 new Gideon, since instant Anthem sounds tempting)

23 Lands

No clue about SB yet, depending on if I want to run Living Wish or not.

Only played 3 rounds last night. Ended up just drawing round 4 with lands to head home early as it was pretty late.
2-0 Ponder Miracles. G1 Early Liliana did work, the ultimate bought me enough time to get in with a tarpit as well. G2 aggressively reb'd a BS bait and then I untapped into Jace and drew too many cards for him.
0-2 Esper mentor. Lost a grind fest G1 after a mull to 5. G2-I kept a 1 land, 2 strix, decay, liliana, dig, BS. Would you keep? I did and didnt draw a 2nd land so I died....
2-0 DnT. The absurdity of Deed against them when you have Liliana and Jace...

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

@Echelon Thanks, I'm definitely seeing the value in more Therapies as I keep playing with this deck. 4 Therapies and 4 Lingering Souls (hard to answer clock, resilient to countermagic) seems like a better start; I'm not sure about so many Thoughtsiezes though; as you mentioned, the deck needs a bit more action, so I'll go for one in the main and the remainder in the sideboard.

@uncletiggy I'm not sure a Scapeshift plan is particularly more robust; it's still similarly weak to the same thing this deck is (let you go off, counter Living Wish) without as much on-board interaction, and you don't get to search as easily as you'd like. I'd like the deck to be able to play a normal Nic Fit gameplan.

@Phillip2293 Rector is something I thought about as well, but I haven't found anything truly worthy of cheating into play just yet. I'm a bigger fan of Enlightened Tutor for that purpose, especially since it finds you your combo and gets stuff like Batterskull when you need action and O-Ring when you need removal. Top is also an interesting consideration, though I'm not really sure what it's trying to accomplish in your list. I'd also like to point out that the Gods interfere with your Leap chain; I'd avoid them in this build.

Updated list:
Deck Core
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Evolutionary Leap
4x Living Wish

Support
2x Mox Diamond
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Thoughtseize
2x Sylvan Library
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Smokestack
4x Lingering Souls
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Batterskull
1x Decree of Justice

Lands
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
8x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp

Wishboard:

3x Thoughtseize
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Rest in Peace
1x Engineered Plague
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Sundering Titan
1x Eternal Witness
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I came to a couple of these conclusions myself. My current list is thus:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Aetherling
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
1 Griselbrand

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
2 Show and Tell
1 Life from the Loam
1 Deep Analysis
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

//sb
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Krosan Grip
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Glen Elendra Archmage

---

Tested this list with elesh over sphinx in the maindeck against stoneblade and miracles, it may just be the matchups/limited testing, but loam felt very useless everytime i had access to it. The deep analysis was amazing and i found myself wanting more then just one thing to entomb with no jace/reanimate in hand. i was thinking of -1 loam +1 worm harvest just for value late game, or -1 waste +1 ravens crime to make sure late game spells stick when in topdeck mode

Why are we playing Lingering souls in the living wish version? This deck no long can or will play a grindy game. There is very little that you will find those are helpful against. I would drop the garruks, equipment, souls, smokestack(why is this here?) and decree. Gsz is better tho I doubt we need 4. Top is better than sylvan as you can use it multiple times between leaps/shuffles to find the wish. I would think we also need some way to recur wish against discard/counter.

I do not mind some MD alt win con besides wish but I think it needs to be more immediate than a Bskull or PW.

@Reanimation-Fit - If you have enough lands to make wurm harvest a thing you should be playing Dig through time to use the graveyard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

Why are we playing Lingering souls in the living wish version? This deck no long can or will play a grindy game. There is very little that you will find those are helpful against. I would drop the garruks, equipment, souls, smokestack(why is this here?) and decree. Gsz is better tho I doubt we need 4. Top is better than sylvan as you can use it multiple times between leaps/shuffles to find the wish. I would think we also need some way to recur wish against discard/counter.

I do not mind some MD alt win con besides wish but I think it needs to be more immediate than a Bskull or PW.

@Reanimation-Fit - If you have enough lands to make wurm harvest a thing you should be playing Dig through time to use the graveyard.

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Not sure why you don't think the deck can't play a long or grindy game; it's what Nic Fit is generally designed to do, anyway. Usually going off with Leap will get you around 11 lands into play; this is enough to cast a whole slew of finishers from Decree to Batterskull to Living Wish for a big monstrosity. I'm not a fan of GSZ at all; it's a dead card once you go off, and fetching for Dryad Arbor/saccing a token is a much more reliable way to get the Explorer chain going. Souls has been an all-star at holding off attackers, providing a clock, and giving you bodies to sac to Leap and Therapy.

Good points in favor of Top (During playtesting I realized that you can sac tokens to Leap for the shuffle even with no creatures in library), but you really don't have a ton of extra mana to spare during the chain. I also prefer the card advantage aspect of Library; I've found it to be an essential E-Tutor target.

@ caravan- if you use the four leftover slots for living wish you can add a boseju and a fattie to the board to either push threw the scape kill or go another route. I think you are under estimating the scape kill especially turbo charged with leap. The numbers arent necessarily right but there's merit to the concept. Im a gbw player personally and more interested in making rector/doubling season work with leap and walkers but im convinced scape is where the card belongs if anywhere in legacy. Id also like to add you can drop to six forests 12 basics is entirely too many. The last explorer trigger should be grabing your other colors.

I do not believe this deck can play a long game against most decks is because your deck is filled with pieces that are redundant once you go off. Etutor and leaps take up a fair amount of the deck. I would not find this deck advantaged after "going off" against miracles, omni, storm, any deck packing mentor, jace, etc. I am not saying that you dont have powerful draws in the deck but that you spent multiple cards in your hand (2 at least) and interacted with the opponent not at all. That is very dangerous. We have CA disadvantage in Moxs, etutor, deed (along with anything we play from the maindeck because they are all tokens).

My advice, for what its worth to you, is that the only way this deck is viable is if you go so over the top you are going to run over whatever your opponent does. This is done by maximizing the living wish. I still think all this work for a living wish creature may not be a better shell than just running the post mana base.

If you are concerned with CA why is sylvan library where you are going to? It takes multiple turns. If your goal is to try to have 8 mana out on turn 4 I am sure we have better options.

Btw, you said you proxied it up and played it? what was the match ups? I think that would be a help too. some decks just dont look good on paper but play out much stronger.

The playtesting was only a few run-throughs against my friend's combo elf deck and a modern version of RUG Delver. Not ideal, but enough to get a sense for how the deck plays out. Elves is frustrating and requires sideboard help; giving your opponent 8 free Rampant Growths is not generally a winning proposition. Delver was a fair matchup; Deed was enough to sweep up the ground while I dug for win conditions and Lingering Souls was great at clogging stuff up, but countermagic was troublesome when I was on the draw and I was led to realize that I was threat-light.

I agree that going over the top with powerful enough plays is important, but I feel it's equally important to make sure that those plays resolve, and that even when you don't go off. Decree of Justice was specifically chosen because it can't be countered; Smokestack because it's a tutorable way to leverage your mana advantage. Perhaps another mana sink like Mastery of the Unseen is just better, but I can't say for sure yet. For what it's worth, after going off, you will have eliminated a substantial chunk of lands and all the Veteran Explorers from your deck; much of what remains will be gas or ways to find it.

And I might be underestimating the Scapeshift kill simply due to my lack of experience with it. I'm just not sure that adding red and going all-in combo is the best way to win; I also feel like Zenith is a particularly poor way to go about starting the chain.

Here is a very rough idea on a more conventional evolutionary fit list. Will try to test some, which should show which parts, if any, that are good in this list. Blue should probably be skipped.

The idea here is to use discard and removal to survive the first couple turns, then lock down combo by "leaping" for Glen Elendra or fight the fair game with Batterskulls and Mentors. Mentor tokens provide additional card advantage when sacrificing for new threats. And the SDT + Mentor combo that I've been waiting try out in Nic Fit since it was spoiled. With the ramping we can quickly make mentor hurt.

Control elements:
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Reclamation Sage

Threats:
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Batterskull
1 Sigarda
0 Lingering Souls

Ramp, creature selection etc:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Evolutionary Leap
3 Green Suns Zenith
2 Deathrite Shaman

Card selection, recycling etc:
1 Academy Rector
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Eternal Witness
1 Recurring Nightmare

Lands:
1 Dryad Arbor
3 forest
2 swamp
1 island
2 plains
2 bayou
1 tropical island
1 savannah
4 verdant catacombs
4 windswept heath

SB:
Gaddock Teeg + hatebears
Discard
Glen Elendra #3-4
Stuff vs lands and 12post
...


Btw, really cool Reanimator Fit list. I'll have to try that soon.

@ caravan my advice to you is download cockatrice and get some games agaisnt real legacy decks before trying something off the wall. Elves plays exactly two forest so there wont be 8 rampant growths and modern delver is not playing brainstorm force wasteland ponder or daze these factors are all skewing your decks developement. When designing a new deck you first have to look at the meta and decide what decks you need to beat and then decide on a way to interact favorably versus them. Right now you're durdling in magic christmas land.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by uncletiggy

@ caravan my advice to you is download cockatrice and get some games agaisnt real legacy decks before trying something off the wall. Elves plays exactly two forest so there wont be 8 rampant growths and modern delver is not playing brainstorm force wasteland ponder or daze these factors are all skewing your decks developement. When designing a new deck you first have to look at the meta and decide what decks you need to beat and then decide on a way to interact favorably versus them. Right now you're durdling in magic christmas land.

---

More or less. Still baby steps at this point, and my local meta isn't particularly competitive (most can't afford dual lands, so I'm running up against monocolored budget brews with a lot of basics a lot). Still working out the kinks with cockatrice, but I'm still in the brewing stage, so hopefully I'll be able to get some real playtesting hours in soon enough and find more meaningful competition.

@Pettdan: As stupid as it sounds, but between Top, Rector and Leap I want to see a Recycle in the list, could make Mentor even more brutal ;)

@CountryCaravan: You do know Dryad Arbor gets fetched by Evolutionary Leap, right? Might accidentally end your combo turn when Leaping into that after having played a land.

Also, you mentioned you struggled with counter magic. That's because, as I said, you try to close out the game like a combo deck. And, like a combo deck, you need that extra discard to get rid of whatever is able to stop your game winning hand. Try to add another Pernicious Deed to the list, and 3/4 Path to Exile. You need to be able to take care of threats while manoeuvring to that point where you outplay your opponent and quickly close the game.

On a side note, I think you would want to find a Wish-target that cannot be Submerged etc. Opponents do topdeck spotremoval or do hide it from your discard with Brainstorm. Another option is to forfeit the Wish package and go on a planeswalker demolition route. Rather than durdle with Wishes and getting your fatties countered, play 6+ planeswalkers to take over the game post-Pernicious Deed. Token producing planeswalkers also play incredibly well with Cabal Therapy and, to extent, Diabolic Intent.

Or to mix the 2 approaches up - run Glittering Wish instead of Living Wish. It can fetch all kinds of fun cards, according to the situation you find yourself in. Planeswalkers, utility creatures (think Gaddock Teeg), finisher like Sigarda, enchantments like Teferi's Moat, whatever floats your boat.

If your meta is mostly mono colored budget brews explorer is not the best place to be id pack lots of deeds and decays and the trifecta of thrun sigarda and dromoka. Play the hard board control route foucus more on spot removal and sweepers and less on combo hate. Expect a lot of burn merfolk and watered down deaath and taxes.