[Deck] Suicide Black

Sideboard tables updated for Infect on page 101 after a lot of test.

MD updated as well:

Black Suicide by Ralf.

Mana
7 Swamp
3 Bloodstained mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flat
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Bayou
3 Dark ritual

Kill conditions
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Deathrite shaman
3 Death's shadow
1 Empty the Pits

Removal
4 Abrupt decay
4 Soul Spike
3 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

Draw spells
4 Infernal Contract
2 Cruel Bargain

Sideboard
3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari charm
2 Pithing needle
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spinning darkness
1 Sylvan Library
2 Engineered plague
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's cage

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Sideboard tables updated for Infect on page 101 after a lot of test.

MD updated as well:

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What were the changes?

Also, wouldn't it be better to run a 3/3 split of our draw spells for the marginal advantage of dodging meddling mages/extractrions?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

What were the changes?

Also, wouldn't it be better to run a 3/3 split of our draw spells for the marginal advantage of dodging meddling mages/extractrions?

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Abrupt decay stays in.
Liliana does not come in.
And a few other tweaks (HTT is meh for example, etc).

You can definitely run a 3/3 split of the draw 4.

I have replaced 1 Bayou MD by 1 Overgrown Tomb.
It helps getting out a shadow in many MU (even more post side) by T2/T3 when you don't lose life fast enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Abrupt decay stays in.
Liliana does not come in.
And a few other tweaks (HTT is meh for example, etc).

You can definitely run a 3/3 split of the draw 4.

I have replaced 2 Bayou MD for 2 Overgrown Tomb.
It helps getting out a shadow in many MU (even more post side) by T2/T3 when you don't lose life fast enough.

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You took out HTT? It still shows that is in. I love the hymn, its not consistent but sometimes it nails everything you need.
Oh I never saw your list when you MD a Lilli.

I like the overgrown tomb idea. Many times I have sat with an uncastable death's shadow, I will try that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

You took out HTT? It still shows that is in. I love the hymn, its not consistent but sometimes it nails everything you need.
Oh I never saw your list when you MD a Lilli.

I like the overgrown tomb idea. Many times I have sat with an uncastable death's shadow, I will try that?

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Only 2 HTT post side instead of the full playset.
I thought infect was a combo deck but it turns out it is an aggro deck before being a combo deck.
If there is no creature in play to pump, you are winning :-)

Master of the Feast and Phyrexian Negator are worth playing in certain decks as a 3 of. You never really want 2 Negator or 2 Master in play at any given time.

I am liking Tainted Pact. Black really does not have any cards like Brainstorm or Ponder and the Tutors are kind of weak. After some practice, it is playable. Typically you don't want to go beyond 4 cards and you don't want anymore of 4 of any card in your deck for obvious reasons. Hatred is just my play style. At times, my opponent's hand destroyed or they mulligan to a weak hand. I plan to kill them when that happens.

As you can see the board is mostly for other aggressive or creature based decks. The main deck is designed to beat combo and the like. Sickening Dreams for token decks. Dread for Death and Taxes. I did test Engineered Plague it seems too slow for what it does in the current format. Scroll is for people that side in Ensnaring Bridge against us.

Master of the Feast is okay especially if you Ritual him out. Typically they will use removal on your Deathrite Shaman, Vampire Hexmage or Hypnotic Specter. After they do it is usally safe to play Negator or Master.

What I like most is you can actually win against burn if you get the depths combo. Typically black loses to burn.

Suicide Black

// Lands
4 [M15] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [CS] Dark Depths
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
3 [M15] Swamp
2 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [KTK] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [C14] Vampire Hexmage
4 [M10] Hypnotic Specter
3 [UD] Phyrexian Negator

// Spells
3 [JOU] Master of the Feast
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [THS] Thoughtseize
4 [OD] Tainted Pact
4 [V13] Hymn to Tourach
3 [EX] Hatred

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [6E] Dread of Night
SB: 4 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 3 [TO] Sickening Dreams
SB: 2 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 [6E] Perish

GreenDragon, I like your list! I'm trying to build a similar version albeit mono-black. Do you ever have issues finding DD? What do you think about Expedition Map?

To answer your question I don't think Suicide Black can use cards like Expedition Map. My thinking is what cantrips colors have to offer now. This is why I think cards like Tainted Pact are good for us. It allows us to view several cards and pick the most devastating one. I often use it to find Hymn. Sometimes I hit another Tainted Pact which I like because it allows me to go deeper in my deck. But what I like most about the deck is you don't "need" Dark Depths to win and there will be games if you only run Tainted Pact that you will not find it. So to make Dark Depths a bit easier to find I added Beseech the Queen. While I am still testing it. Beseech the Queen usually allows me to get Hexmage, Depths or Thespian's Stage and allows me to play 3 Depths instead of 4. I can use it to get Ritual if I have Hatred in hand. Also, I added white primarily for Tidehollow Sculler. It is well worth it to play that over Thoughtseize. I also added a 4 Master because I find he is the very last creature my opponents see before they die. Few decks can handle a 5/5 black flyer. The result is a very brutal Suicide Black deck. But like I said 6 ways to find cards in your deck is pretty damn good considering. Often, people's only answer to Marit Lage is Swords to Plowshares giving you 20 life. After that, you have more than enough life usually to cast Hatred. The deck has 3 ways to win Depths, Hatred or Master.

Hatred 2016

// Lands
4 [M15] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [CS] Dark Depths
3 [R] Scrubland
2 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
1 [M15] Swamp
1 [KTK] Plains

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [C14] Vampire Hexmage
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [M10] Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
4 [JOU] Master of the Feast
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [OD] Tainted Pact
4 [V13] Hymn to Tourach
3 [EX] Hatred
2 [SHM] Beseech the Queen

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [V13] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 2 [TO] Sickening Dreams
SB: 2 [MI] Forsaken Wastes
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [WL] Spinning Darkness

In regards to Master of the Feast's drawing cards for your opponent it is seldom that it works against me. The worst is when they have Maze of Ith and I can't find a Wasteland or they have Life of the Loam to bring it back. I may add graveyard hate but I find doing so deludes the forcefulness of the deck. Main deck is very aggressive so the sideboard needs to add to that, not take away. After testing Beseech I have to say I'm not really a fan. I think it's okay to play 1 but more than that. I wouldn't and I'm adding back the 4th Dark Depths.

A refresh primer, a little outdated, but a good refresh read to help inspire some deck design.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=11797.0

Has anyone tried Gitaxian Probe in the build? It seems like a great free way to take your life lower while it replaces itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

Has anyone tried Gitaxian Probe in the build? It seems like a great free way to take your life lower while it replaces itself.

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Hello James,

We have tried Gitaxian Probe.

The card is nice, no wonder.
But the problem is that we have no way to cast it for U, and sometimes you cannot play it because you cannot lose life anymore.
Also this is not a black card and thus it doesn't pitch for Soul Spike.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Hello James,

We have tried Gitaxian Probe.

The card is nice, no wonder.
But the problem is that we have no way to cast it for U, and sometimes you cannot play it because you cannot lose life anymore.
Also this is not a black card and thus it doesn't pitch for Soul Spike.

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The only way to cast it is with a death rite activation.

Lately I have noticed myself is situations with uncastable deathshadows. A lot of the time it's because of an early soulspike activation, or them STP something. With a probe and a god hand turn one you can go fetch (-1), catacombs untapped (-2), thoughtseize (-2), probe (-2). and we're at 13 turn 1!

I guess not pitching to soulspike is an issue as well as what would get cut for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

The only way to cast it is with a death rite activation.

Lately I have noticed myself is situations with uncastable deathshadows. A lot of the time it's because of an early soulspike activation, or them STP something. With a probe and a god hand turn one you can go fetch (-1), catacombs untapped (-2), thoughtseize (-2), probe (-2). and we're at 13 turn 1!

I guess not pitching to soulspike is an issue as well as what would get cut for it.

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Yes, definitely and that is why we are "only" playing 3 shadows to avoid having 2 of them in a lot of opening hand (even if it happens but you should probably have mulliganed this hand anyway).

Note also that with 6 draw spells you should be able to play around such hindrance.

At last, those corner cases should only be relevant against combo / control decks that are not threatening your life total; those decks tend to be addressed in G2 & G3 where you have access to a bit more velocity through more lifeloss (Surgical Extraction).

Remember that the deck wants to:
1) First, take control of the game (hand and board wise)
2) Then, kill your opponent

We are not an "all in" kind of deck. It happens sometimes but this rather the exception than the rule.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Yes, definitely and that is why we are "only" playing 3 shadows to avoid having 2 of them in a lot of opening hand (even if it happens but you should probably have mulliganed this hand anyway).

Note also that with 6 draw spells you should be able to play around such hindrance.

At last, those corner cases should only be relevant against combo / control decks that are not threatening your life total; those decks tend to be addressed in G2 & G3 where you have access to a bit more velocity through more lifeloss (Surgical Extraction).

Remember that the deck wants to:
1) First, take control of the game (hand and board wise)
2) Then, kill your opponent

We are not an "all in" kind of deck. It happens sometimes but this rather the exception than the rule.

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Thanks for the explanation.

On a side note has anything from Oath seem like a good fit in the deck? Warping Weil?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

Thanks for the explanation.

On a side note has anything from Oath seem like a good fit in the deck? Warping Weil?

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Actually, the only "on-going" debate is about the 2nd Spinning Darkness in the sideboard.

I haven't figured out any replacement card for it yet; but well, if anyone has some good idea, don't hesitate to chime in !

I'm afraid OGW has not brought us any playable cards as it stands out but who knows ?

Warping Wail is a great thing but we won't be able to include it in our list unless we change the whole mana base.

If you are looking to maximize Death's Shadow I suggest incorporating a Street Wraith/Reanimate engine. I have been playing a B/R suicide deck that has been surprisingly explosive... you could probably easily tweak to mono-B or your splash of choice.

4 Death's Shadow
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Street Wraith
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Murderous Cut
2 Reanimate
2 Fire Covenant
2 Chain Lightning
2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Mishra's Bauble

4 Badlands
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Barren Moor

4 Dark Confidant
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Gloom
2 Smash to Smithereens

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maharis

If you are looking to maximize Death's Shadow I suggest incorporating a Street Wraith/Reanimate engine. I have been playing a B/R suicide deck that has been surprisingly explosive... you could probably easily tweak to mono-B or your splash of choice.

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Hello Maharis,

The list you have provided is on the same track as "Death's proof" (UB Death's shadow) iteration.
This deck is really nice but it is trying to accomplish something different.

Our core is about Infernal Contract/Cruel bargain + Soul Spike.
Shadows were just a nice addition...or something one could call a collateral damage :cool:


UB Death's shadow

4 Death's Shadow
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Street Wraith
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Dismember
4 Force of Will

4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize

3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave


Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Snuff Out
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Massacre
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bayou

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Hello Maharis,

The list you have provided is on the same track as "Death's proof" (UB Death's shadow) iteration.
This deck is really nice but it is trying to accomplish something different.

Our core is about Infernal Contract/Cruel bargain + Soul Spike.
Shadows were just a nice addition...or something one could call a collateral damage :cool:


UB Death's shadow

4 Death's Shadow
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Street Wraith
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Dismember
4 Force of Will

4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize

3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave


Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Snuff Out
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Massacre
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bayou

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How do you compare the playstyle of the Your Suicide Black vs the UB?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

How do you compare the playstyle of the Your Suicide Black vs the UB?

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UB Shadow is a real tempo deck with an "all-in" strategy.

My deck is a midrange/control deck.

This past friday i ran the deck again,

The overgrown tombs are an awesome addition. I did poorly mostly do to mulliganing way too much.

The biggest thing I need to work on is the infect matchup. Them giving me life is a pseudo removal for the death's shadow. The major issue is dealing with the Inkmoth nexus. Its next to impossible to remove. Any suggestions for the infect matchup.

Also, what matches does empty the pits need to stay in and which does it need to come out. I find myself always cutting it going into game 2.

Have you thought of using toxic deluge in this deck?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

This past friday i ran the deck again,

The overgrown tombs are an awesome addition. I did poorly mostly do to mulliganing way too much.

The biggest thing I need to work on is the infect matchup. Them giving me life is a pseudo removal for the death's shadow. The major issue is dealing with the Inkmoth nexus. Its next to impossible to remove. Any suggestions for the infect matchup.

Also, what matches does empty the pits need to stay in and which does it need to come out. I find myself always cutting it going into game 2.

Have you thought of using toxic deluge in this deck?

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You have all the sideboard strategies here including Infect + an analysis on "Empty the Pits".

The Infect MU is slightly positive from our testing.

Toxic Deluge has been properly tested. Unfortunately, Engineered plague is better than Toxic in more MU.
The only MU where Toxic is better than Plague is against deck playing Sigarda.

For now, we are testing "Reanimate" instead of the 2nd Spinning Darkness in the sideboard.

Reanimate combining with Street Wraith like the UB build?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xod

Reanimate combining with Street Wraith like the UB build?

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No !
We don't play Street Wraith.

Spinning Darkness is meant to improve aggro & tempo MU. Reanimate should mostly provide the same improvment (a bit less against delver deck) with an added bonus against midrange and some combo decks.

So reanimate one of their creatures?

Just curious, have you ever tested Ob Nixilis reignited, or Erebos, god of the dead?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

So reanimate one of their creatures?

Just curious, have you ever tested Ob Nixilis reignited, or Erebos, god of the dead?

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@Reanimate: It can be seen as threat n°13 (11 creatures + Empty + Reanimate). It will help closing games a bit faster against midrange/attrition war. Reanimating any creatures (Goyf, Death's shadow) is pretty cool. It has some broken synergy in a deck playing discard spells.

However, Tempo MU will be a bit harder as Spinning Darkness is "King" when it comes to dealing with Delver deck. Reanimate is not bad against Tempo deck, either but usually you are in the control seat not the contrary. I'm still assessing, right now, if we can really cut the 2nd Spinning Darkness or not.


@ Fancy things:

No.

To be honest, with 19 lands (4 DRS & 3 Dark Ritual) the deck cannot reliably sustain more than 1 big spell (spell> 3 CMC).

Empty the Pits fits perfectly the bill, because it usually ends the game "on the spot" and I have not found anything as powerful as this spell.
The only spell as much broken as this one is not playable in this deck: Hatred.

Anyway, I can see the appeal for sexy things but as a 1-of, you will hardly see it.


Now if you really want to try something as a 2-of, I would cut "1 Empty the Pits + 1 Dismember":


1) Erebos doesn't impact the board "at all" and its ability is "weak".

2) Ob Nixilis is almost legacy playable. And I like him a lot in my Walker Fit deck. But unfortunately, he is really slow and 5 CMC is pushing really hard.
At least his -3 impacts the board.
You might also want to look at/test Vraska. Her +1 is far worse but she can kill any non land permanent (Jace) and she can use her ultimate a turn sooner. But to my taste her ulty is worse than Ob Nixilis.

3) If you really want to go "crazy", the PW I would also try is Sorin Markov.


Keep us posted as far as your tests go !

Is there still a place in Legacy for 4 x Nantuko Shades? :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

1) Erebos doesn't impact the board "at all" and its ability is "weak".

2) Ob Nixilis is almost legacy playable. And I like him a lot in my Walker Fit deck. But unfortunately, he is really slow and 5 CMC is pushing really hard.
At least his -3 impacts the board.
You might also want to look at/test Vraska. Her +1 is far worse but she can kill any non land permanent (Jace) and she can use her ultimate a turn sooner. But to my taste her ulty is worse than Ob Nixilis.

3) If you really want to go "crazy", the PW I would also try is Sorin Markov.

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I can see that on erebos

I tried Ob Nix, and kinda liked him, I like that he lets us sink life for cards and can immediately kill something. Although it doesnt solve the problem of killing an Inkmoth nexus :( However if you ult him and contract thats 8 damage to them!

Vraska seems harder to hit mana wise and still doesnt help with inkmoths, however being able to kill a planes walker or a counterbalance is sweet.

Sorin seems cool, he can change the clock real quick, but his plus hurts us and his ult cant win us the game.

As someone asked, here is my latest list:

Black Suicide / Infernal Shadow by Ralf.

Mana

7 Swamp
3 Bloodstained mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flat
2 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Dark ritual

Kill conditions

4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Deathrite shaman
3 Death's shadow
1 Empty the Pits

Removal

4 Abrupt decay
4 Soul Spike
3 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Disruption

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

Draw spells

4 Infernal Contract
2 Cruel Bargain

Sideboard

3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari charm
2 Pithing needle
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Spinning darkness
1 Reanimate
1 Sylvan Library
2 Engineered plague
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's cage


Updated sideboard tables + bonuses can be found here including Infect + an analysis on "Empty the Pits".

If you have any questions, feel free to shoot.

Cheers,

Ralf.

I see you reverted back to 2 bayou and 1 Overgrown Tomb instead of the other way around. 2 Tombs is nice, but with variable costs on dismember and such, you mostly can play with your life total without risking to much against an aggro/Tempo deck.

(your bayou gets wasted and you need to fetch another B/G land for instant use and you only have Tombs left against a fast damaging deck is not very handy)

Other than that I don't see much I would change myself. I'm planning to take it for another spin since I'm back in to the 'controlling' decks. And this one still acts a controlling when you need to, or aggro when against control or combo. Currently playing Quinn and still deciding what I'm going to take to the GP in Prague. Might also be Oozing :-)

Yes I know, I play weird decks ;-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xod

I see you reverted back to 2 bayou and 1 Overgrown Tomb instead of the other way around. 2 Tombs is nice, but with variable costs on dismember and such, you mostly can play with your life total without risking to much against an aggro/Tempo deck.

(your bayou gets wasted and you need to fetch another B/G land for instant use and you only have Tombs left against a fast damaging deck is not very handy)

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Yes, after many tests (and due to a decrease of combo decks in the overall meta) I reverted back to just 1 overgrown tomb.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xod

Other than that I don't see much I would change myself. I'm planning to take it for another spin since I'm back in to the 'controlling' decks. And this one still acts a controlling when you need to, or aggro when against control or combo. Currently playing Quinn and still deciding what I'm going to take to the GP in Prague. Might also be Oozing :-)

Yes I know, I play weird decks ;-)

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Welcome to the "Club" !

surprised to see this list. looks very fun. any other good ways to mitigate the life loss?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

surprised to see this list. looks very fun. any other good ways to mitigate the life loss?

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Yes, it is really fun and surprisingly competitive enough (in the current meta).

What do you mean by "other good ways to mitigate the life loss" ?

i guess it was a bit rushed of a question.

what would you say are the favorable and unfavorable matchups (preboard)?

also, your thoughts on a singleton lake of the dead?

I never found lake of the dead a good card, and especially not in this deck.

First of all, or mana base is not so big, so it needs to be steady. Saccing one of our lands and then getting lake wasted is according to me a serious setback.

Second, sure, it provides a big boost, at the cost of at least a second swamp, so actually what it gives you is at turn 3, 4 extra mana, assuming you tapped the swamps before saccing them, you then have 6 mana. If you look at the cards we play, you'll notice we don't need THAT much mana. The only mana we need is in the beginning of our first/second turn to get a nice boost. Let's analyse the cards where we need the mana for:

HTT: Lake of the Dead won't help
Gatekeeper: it can help, but so can dropping a land each turn or DRS
Empty the Pits: now this is the only card where Lake can help, but we also side this card out in certain matchup's, so I don't think it will help that much.
Soul Spike: to hardcast it, sure.
D4 spells: DRS and DR will help casting these sooner then Lake, the only advance I see here is casting the cards you drew from the spells with lake. But at that moment you just lost 2 swamps.

So I guess it's not really a good card (in this deck).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

i guess it was a bit rushed of a question.

what would you say are the favorable and unfavorable matchups (preboard)?

also, your thoughts on a singleton lake of the dead?

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1) Matchups

It is difficult to give some raw numbers (preboard). But if you take into account any game with sideboard:

- Tempo (without reach) = favorable
- Tempo with reach = 50/50
- Aggro & Tribal deck = lightly favorable (50/50 vs infect)
- Miracle = lightly unfavorable
- Monastery Miracle = lightly favorable
- Eldrazi = lightly favorable
- Shardless = 50/50
- Jund = 50/50
- Lands = Unfavorable
- D&T = lightly favorable
- Storm = lightly unfavorable
- S&T = lightly favorable
- Burn = lightly unfavorable

That should give you a good idea where the deck lies against the current format.

The hardest part with the deck (something that few people are used to) is to play with your life as another "ressource".
Once you get a good grip on it, you'll start to put up some results.


2) Lake of the Dead

I have played with 1 in the past. It is sometimes great and sometimes poor.
But when you are not playing BS, you seek consistency.
You cannot really afford to mulligan an otherwise good starting hand because of "lake" and that was the major point.

Anyway, if you are interested in giving the deck a few tries, be my guest.
10 to 20 games should be a minimum, though.

And if you do, please come back and share your feelings & ideas with us.

Cheers,

Ralf

before testing (will be a few days before i can sit with modo or wait for paper cards to come in mail (ordered some bargains, i have a few from doomsday but not a playset).

what are your thoughts on the kamigawa land that can turn into a 5/5 (taps for black but also pings you)

volrath's stronghold (maybe regulated to sb for grindy matchups)?

kaervek's spite because it's awesome?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

before testing (will be a few days before i can sit with modo or wait for paper cards to come in mail (ordered some bargains, i have a few from doomsday but not a playset).

what are your thoughts on the kamigawa land that can turn into a 5/5 (taps for black but also pings you)

volrath's stronghold (maybe regulated to sb for grindy matchups)?

kaervek's spite because it's awesome?

---

By essence, the deck I proposed is a control deck.
Even if, you'll have some very fast aggro start sometimes, it will rather be the exception than the rule.

Once that is said:
- I would not play the kamigawa land. Losing all your lands for a 5/5 is not where you wanna be.
- Volrath's stronghold is to be classified as Lake of the Dead
- Kaervek's spite = you made my day !!! But well...no :)

Anyway, you can tweak the list as you like but I would stick with the one proposed (at least for the first games) since we have put a lot of tests behind it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

By essence, the deck I proposed is a control deck.
Even if, you'll have some very fast aggro start sometimes, it will rather be the exception than the rule.

Once that is said:
- I would not play the kamigawa land. Losing all your lands for a 5/5 is not where you wanna be.
- Volrath's stronghold is to be classified as Lake of the Dead
- Kaervek's spite = you made my day !!! But well...no :)

Anyway, you can tweak the list as you like but I would stick with the one proposed (at least for the first games) since we have put a lot of tests behind it.

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okay! thanks for input

traveling and not playing...

thoughts on cursed scroll, winter orb, storage matrix?


also - built the deck on modo. i dont have an empty the pits (have everything else) given the really high amount of storm on modo i'm just going to run a lich instead. i've always wanted to use that card and it seems like it could be great here in some small situations.

I saw Kaervek's Spite and I was thinking immediately about Withering Boon.

The lifeloss we don't care about that much, only problem it that it only counters creature spells. And we already handle creatures quite good.

Ralf,

Your sideboard plan against Eldrazi looks very solid. Can't wait to test it. Probably next Friday and maybe to the GP in Prague.