I think that against zoo its better chalice at 1 and if they lose a 2/2 exalted creature to deal with chalice its ok. Since then, they was doing nothing and maybe meanwhile they draw pridemage we have set up or have another chalice at hand.
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I think that against zoo its better chalice at 1 and if they lose a 2/2 exalted creature to deal with chalice its ok. Since then, they was doing nothing and maybe meanwhile they draw pridemage we have set up or have another chalice at hand.
Yeah, there's no point to setting a lone Chalice at two. What you really want is a pair of them for one and two, but if you only have a single copy in hand, you have to set it to one. Not only does it affect more of their deck, but if you set a Chalice at two first, then you can't Chalice at one if you draw it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al-ucard
I just put the deck together, and countertop is everywhere so Ive yet to face it. How does the matchup go anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wes
It basicly goes
turn one play chalice @1 or trinnisphere
turn 2 play pemanent
repeat turn 2 play afew more times
if they get out an early goyf, they might win but if they dont stick a threat for more than 2 turns you win.
Hi I'm new to this thread. I was wondering if there are any optimal lists that you as a stax player would run if you had no budget. Thanks!
K1LO's list (post #1991) is pretty hot. If you're not confident in your ability to finish rounds quickly enough, you can sub in a pair of Baneslayers for a Trinisphere and a Magus. If you want to, squeezing in a second copy of Ravages somewhere might be good (he mentions this in his post as well). Also, consider Suppression Field maindeck over Trinisphere, it's a metagame choice, but worth thinking about. Sphere is great against combo but pretty can be frustrating against Vial decks or Zoo. Field is great against Zoo (fuck you, Pridemage) and hoses random Vial/Fetchland/Top shenanigans all day, but it's not going to stop somebody from pissing all over you with LEDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by myw002
EDIT -- I forgot to mention, as K1LO said in a later post, if you have a truly unlimited budget you should run the split as 3 Ravages/1 Geddon. No one is ever going to throw their G1 Meddling Mage/Therapy at Ravages instead of Geddon, the chances of their opponent having the budget to play 3 Ravages is ridiculously low.
I think I might try this with Kilo1's list:
2/2 split between Magus and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2/2 split between Armaggeddon and Ravages of War
And maybe taking out a Sphere and Smoke Stack for a Smokestack for:
+2 Baneslayer Angel
What do you think?
If you're wondering about the purse size...I'm thinking about taking apart my fully powered ANT deck (vintage). So I can sell some power and still make the deck.
Now i understand because 2 tabernacle requires a great budget!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by myw002
On the other hand i like baneslayer. Off course you'll soft lock you oppos in exchange on winning faster.
Were you being sarcastic with the 2 tabernacles comment? Just wondering. Yeah, it's pretty expensive now. Pretty much 250ish for 1. I have a Lotus, Jet, Twister, and Recall. I forgot I don't own a Sapphire. But, I think that should still cover the price of the deck. I don't know...What are your guys opinion on this matter? Would you deconstruct vintage if you had these cards to make this deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
If I were to sell off my P9, I wouldn't blow the majority of it on Tabernacle. Tabernacle is incredibly narrow and only used in 2 competitive decks; Stax and Lands. I would much rather obtain Legacy staples; cards that you use in a wide array of decks. Duals, fetches, Goyfs, FoW, Chalice, etc. IF you already have every Legacy staple (due to playing Vintage), then I suppose getting a Tabernacle wouldn't be a waste as most of the deck is semi-cheap otherwise. I'd stick with 4 Armageddon and 1 Ravages of War; Meddling Mage has fallen out of favor in many, many sideboards that are able to support him.
We had a legacy tournament last night and I went 3-1 and only lost to zoo. Supression field worked great but wasn't enough. What other cards would you guys suggest for any zoo or aggro build. I got the lock on every other deck without a problem. thanks.
Playing with standard Armageddon Stax, Zoo is a sucky matchup if they land a Pridemage/Teeg before we can get lock pieces out. I've usually relied on O.Ring, Wrath, and/or Sphere of Law to help... it still sucks balls though.
If you're running the Dutch Stax version, Humility followed by Moat is GG if you drop Humility before they get Teeg out. It's still rough; Zoo has the means to get 1-2 retarded creatures out before you can really do anything and then they ride that to victory backed up by decent burn.
Maybe sphere of law i guess...and off course O-ring helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moduloc
thanks for the help, I never considered sphere of law. sounds like just what i needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I would never sell off power for Tabernacle. Tabernacle isn't integral to the deck. I still play a slightly modified version of the exact decklist listed in the opening post of this thread (the only changes I made are that I play either 2 O. Ring or 2 Cataclysm and 2 Angels instead of the 4 EE and I play 3 Wasteland instead of the 3 Crystal Vein). So basically I'm playing...Quote:
Originally Posted by myw002
0 Tabernacle
4 Magus of Tabernacle
0 Ravages of War
4 Armageddon
0 Moat
and occasionally a Cataclysm or two.
Unlike Tabernacle, Magus doesn't get blown up by your own Armageddon (thanks to your own Flagstones, Mox Diamonds or simply planning ahead by playing your land drop for the turn after you Geddon). Magus stays in play to cost your opponents every single creature they have after your Armageddon. Pendrall Vale doesn't do that.
The decklist doesn't feel the least bit suboptimal. The only thing that feels suboptimal in my list is that I opt to play the far cheaper Battlegrace Angel instead of Bankslayer Angel and the deck still operates very well. There are a couple of advantages to Baneslayer over Battlegrace (first stike, pro dragon) but the only creature against which they seem to matter is Tombstalker). Not enough to justify the 100 fold increase in the price IMO. I would get the Bankslayer Angel whenever it rotates out of Standard as it is worth it, but the Tabernacle of Pendrall Vale lands aren't IMO. The deck still functions perfectly with 4 Magus instead. I would bet that even if I cut some Magus of the Tabernacle and got ahold of and played 2 Tabernacle, it would improve my win percentage by less than 1%. Why plop down so much money for such an incremental gain?
@ Magus of the Tabernacle vs. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale:
You can play this deck with just Magus as it almost works the same, is a great blocker and attacker, but the original Tabernacle as a 1-off won me more games than the 4th Magus would have done, because it comes down a little earlier (matters against Dredge, Elves, Goblins, ...), can be pitched to Mox Diamond and be recurred with Crucible of Worlds. Nevertheless, I´d never play with less than 3 Magus as he is just that great too.
@ Armageddon vs. Ravages of War:
If you really can afford Ravages so play it over Armageddon, as it matters sometimes (e.g. against Landstill, Bant Aggro/Survival) and just does exactly the same, compared to Magus and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. But, I must confess, that I´ve only ever lost one game where a 2nd or 3rd Ravages over Armageddon would have made the difference.
If I wouldn´t own The Tabernacle and Ravages, I bought them some time ago when they were cheap, because of my Highlander-decks I wouldn´t buy them right now as they are just not worth their pricey investment over Magus or Armageddon (the same with Baneslayer Angel right now) and Stax isn´t such a good deck at all. I´d rather get other Legacy-staples (e.g. more Duals, Phyrexian Dreadnought, ...) and NEVER sell any power just to buy these. If someone wants to quit Vintage and get more into Legacy, please don´t waste your money on hardly needed Stax-cards, but get you a real competitive deck instead.
@ Zoo-matchup:
Last tournament I´ve lost two straight games against a Zoo-player who got flooded in both games to get besides my Trinisphere, Wasteland and three! Ghostly Prisons and of course I didn´t draw an Armageddon-effect and my Crucibles got destroyed by Qasali Pridemages. Shit happens, although I´d say that it is a pretty even matchup. Against Zoo I didn´t like the Suppression Fields from the sideboard, but I´m going to test them as a 4-off again as you sometimes have to land two of them to prevent any activated abilities. The card I sided in the most during the whole tournament was the 4th Oblivion Ring which I´d really like to be maindeck, but can´t find any room for it. Journey to Nowhere was great too, as you have to get rid of those Meddling Mages and Gaddocks to play Armageddon or Smokestack.
Greetz, K1LO
So what would you say is a top deck that should be built then that is well worth the investment.
Anything that involves Forces, Goyfs, and Trops. It gives you a lot of flexibility, once you have the core cards it's not difficult to switch between decks like Tempo Thresh, Supreme Blue, Countertop Bant, Bant Survival, etc. There are tons of options to work from once you have blue duals, Goyfs, and Forces. Stax doesn't give you nearly as many ways to use your cards. The main money cards in a normal Stax build are the Mox Diamonds, which can also go in Aggro Loam or 43 lands, but the rest of the cards mostly just work for other stompy/prison decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by myw002
This deck isn't a bad investment by any means. It's a lot of fun and let's you switch over to playing Dragon Stompy and Faierie Stompy as well. I'm saying investing $300 to get Tabernacle or Ravages solely for this deck when your budget is tight isn't a good investment. The deck does function perfectly well and plays essentially the same without Tabernacle or Ravages since Magus and Armageddon are pretty much just as good and do the same thing.
If you like Aggro, build Zoo, if you like Aggro Control build Countertop or Merfolk and if you like prison build this. You can't go wrong with any of those choices, It all depends on your playstyle.
"and Stax isn´t such a good deck at all."
It's that exact statement that lead me to believe that perhaps was not as well off in the legacy format as I had thought. Perhaps, this is an incorrect statement? I am interested in this deck, otherwise, why would I post here.
Stax can definitely win, but the main drawback that keeps players away is that it's so frickin' dependant on your opening 7; there's no tutoring and no drawing to speak of (I don't really count a 1-of Horizon Canopy as a reliable draw effect). That's why this deck is virtually all 3-ofs and 4-ofs, we're at the mercy of the draw step. When you win, you generally win big due to having the perfect amount of lock/answers in your hand. When you lose, you lose big due to drawing lock too late or not the correct kind of lock depending on the matchup. It's frustrating and a glaring problem that has no clear solution; that's why Stax is a tier 2 metagame deck that can occasionally win tournaments out of nowhere.
I believe that stax is one of the most enjoyable and good to play with decks out there if one knows how to play stax correctly. Getting staples cards to legacy is real important since it is in many of the decks that are played today. I invested in two Ravages of War because it helps me that much and I can play around Meddling Mages calling Armageddon. IMO I think Magus of the Tabernacle is way better than The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. There was this once match where I needed to put one land down for armageddon and he had a mass of creatures ready to attack next turn. I wasn't able to clear the creatures since I wasn't able to do the WOG effect with tabernacle and armageddon since I already put a land down. This would be an example where Magus of the Taberncle dominate over Pendrell Vale. I am also assuming that I have played Magus of the Tabernacle already of course :P
4 Magus + 1 Tabernacle seems like the "best" fit, especially given the rise of Merfolk, Zoo, and other aggro strategies. I don't think you'll really be hurting too much if you can't acquire the single Tabernacle, but I think it'll pay dividends in the long run.
Last sunday I went to a more 90 people tournament and I finish the 14th (another time), this was my list:
25 Lands
6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
6 Creatures
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel
29 Others
4 Chalice of the void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Armageddon
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppresion Field
3 Trinisphere
3 Ghostly Prison
60 Total
15 Sideboard
4 Choke
3 Aura of Silence
3 Tormod's crypt
3 Sphere of Law
1 Trinisphere
1 Ghostly Prison
The report:
1st Round: SurviBant.
We start well, against one of the best players of the league and with a deck that a chimpanzee is able to do top8.
I win the dice roll and start: Plains + Mox + suppresion = His face take serious, he plays dual, I play and active wasteland paying 2. Finally he concedes with 4-5 fetchlands in play XD
In the second game I keep a slow hand, he counters the key cards and with an exalted 5/6 goyf actives qasali destroying its survival that changes the goyf into 6/7 that kills my blocking tabernacle.
In the third match I play choke first turn but opponent starts with taiga + hierach, this time my face take serious XD I draw bad and finally lose against a war monk.
0-0-1
2nd Round: Dark depths.
The first one opponent was attacking me for so long with confidant and I take 18 damage with prison in play. I finally topdeck an answer in the shape of oblivion, him plays another confidant and I topdeck another ring! Finally I play armageddon and him concedes since this takes for 30 minutes and I will win this game.
In the second one I didn’t remember so I imagine that I start well I draw better.
1-0-1
3rd Round: GodBant.
Directly humiliated me. It is the first time in my life playing Stax I feel I could do nothing against a deck
I keep a slow hand but with suppresion in second turn. He plays land and hierarch. I started with plains and pass. He plays goyf, I wanted to play suppresion in second but not mox and not city of tomb so I couldn’t play about daze so I prefer to play land and pass. He plays another goyf so I change my strategy and play city, then came FoW so I pass, he attacks and I only have a turn left. I play Tabernacle and he play swords at EOT.
I started with trinisphere in the first turn, the plays FoW. He starts with hierarch (another time this guy in first turn). I played chalice @1. He plays war monk and starts to attack. I didn’t draw the land I need to play tabernacle and one turn before die I finally draw it so I play magus and next turn I’m prepared to play geddon that probably gives me the game. I pass the turn and at EOT the plays the bant charm and puts my magus at the bottom of library.
1-0-2
4th Round: Goblins.
I win the first match because opponent didn’t came at time.
The secong match he starts with vial, I start with suppresion. In the second the played piledriver, I think nothing. In the third turn he put lackey with vial at 1 in upkeep and then puts the second counter he attacks with piledriver and lackey (i didn’t realize that Lackey was sicked) ye puts another piledriver with lackey ability. I remove lackey with ring, the with vial at 3 puts warchifes and attack to 12 damage, I’m at 2. I played tabernacle and stall the game for so long since I played the second suppresion and keep him under 4 lands with wastelands. Finally I played a geddon that gives me the game (definitely, is the card that makes the games end).
2-0-2
5th Round: SurviBant.
First one I draw nothing so I lose. In the sideboard for first time I put the fourth trinisphere and the prison instead the chokes since as I see previously this decks could play so well around them thanks to hierarch. In the second I play some lock pieces in 2 first turn and in third a baneslayer that end fast. The third one tooks so long but finally I could resolve a geddon with a Tabernacle in play that gives me the game.
3-0-2
6th Round: ANT.
Another time opponent arrives late so I win the first match. In the second opponent started with WU fetchland so I play tomb and chalice@1. In second the plays land and pass. In the third I played land and pass because didn’t have nothing. In its third I realized the deck he was playing because the tried to combo out, but finally he couldn’t thanks to chalice (he draws some tutors and rituals).
4-0-2
7th Round: Team America.
I started with chalice @1 so his face look serious. He played some sinkholes but I was drawing lands. Finally I played trinisphere, tabernacle and geddon so he concedes.
In the second I put 3 chokes In (I saw some underground seas in last game and this deck) and the fourth trinisphere in first turn I play crucible because I have trinisphere for the second so I wanted him to counter crucible and exactly is what the do. So in the second I played sphere, at third I played prison and him starts to make pressure with tombstalker, but with my wastelands I keep him lower than 2 lands. Finally I played geddon so he concedes.
5-0-2
Conclusions:
Choke its not a good cards against Bant because of hiearch, so I’m thinking in the black splash with Scrubland instead Savannah and put 3-4 Perish in side. Thoughts?
Please don´t get me wrong, I still enjoy playing Stax and do so from time to time as it can be very powerfull. But, on the other hand it is inconstant as hell, although you´re just playing 4-offs you´re heavily dependent on your opening hand and your first four turns. That is where Stax either wins or loses in my opinion and Pridemage enormously weakens this decks gameplan, so Zoo and UGw-decks aren´t that positive matchups anymore. Todays Legacy-Stax in no way can be compared to Vintage-Stax(aggro) ever, where it is still a real powerhouse, and unfortunately is just not as good as it seems, might be or once was. That hurts my heart too, but is the realistic evaluation. Yeah, if I´d be getting new into Legacy with some money in hand I´d get me a playset of Tropicals, Goyfs and Forces first too, as it offers more directions you can go to, e.g. CB-Bant, Bant Aggro/Survival, Canadian Thresh, ... . But, Stax´s huge time will come again, I´m pretty confident of.
Greetz, K1LO
al-ucard, with the last tournament played, do you think suppression field is definitely better than smokestack in the current metageme? why do you prefer to play 4 magus and 3 prisons?
Smokestack is too slow for the current meta with so many zoo and tribal decks and suppresion just its fine against this matchups. Then I prefer magus with prison the opponent can decide not attack and develop their play and with magus you force them to pay and this slow them. The second reason its why he could block and attack.
Thanks for the report,
I think some of those matches could be seen as you being forced into a reactive mode.
You had no "win" on board. So the person could simply proceed to take his time and build his own win.
In essence, you applied no pressure against him, just obstacles.
Try Lodestone Golem in there. Up the creature count.
Golem in first 3 or 4 turns often puts you in the win zone quickly.
Magus works, no doubt, but he can be taken out rather easily. He's often simply a one turn stall.
Suppression instead of stax huh.. then should we call this deck Armageddon Field? :P I definitely know what you're talking about K1LO. This deck can be annoying to play with since it is so inconsistent. But if we are able to make it more consistent this deck will be godly :) And I also played the deck GodBant on MWS. I couldn't do anything at all too since they had answers to everything. I am going to try out the suppression field instead of stax for now and see how I like it. You guys are getting promising results as far as I can see *thumbs up*
Quoted for truth, nonetheless this is like squaring the circle^^.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4zureSky
Greetz, K1LO
So, what makes this more consistent?
I'd imagine a drawing engine, as tutors in most cases are card disadvantage.
So how can we make this deck draw,
I'd think the first question is, blue has the power to give Stax quite a few options. Has quite a few straight replacement cards as well.
Propaganda
Vedalken Shackles
But is it possible to get both colors?
We like Armageddon/Ravages, but they just need white.
So we keep our 4 mox diamonds.
We can use Trokair to fetch old dual lands, no?
Riftstone portal cements white/green really well. I don't see many of you using it, but I have now put that as a really wanted 2 of. It's something you WANT to sac to smokestack. All of a sudden if your at an advantage, you don't need to take damage off of Ancient tomb, that's great. Or that double white if you want to run it is just fine. Even a double green could be viable.
Is there anything that does this for blue?
Obviously Tundra's. And maybe Shackles is a no go as it won't get you much.
Solemn would let you fetch up lands though, its a 2 for 1 permanent actually, PLUS a can trip.
Infact, I wonder why we don't use him now...
So how do we make this more consistent?
Thirst for Knowledge seems a good one.
Brainstorms decent, but we really want a 3 cmc draw spell.
Howling Mine could be tested interestingly, but that's very hard to call viable. Certainly your attempting to deny resources, and more cards means more ways out of a lock.
I have to agree with the general sentiment here regarding this deck. The lack of draw and having to mulligan for really good starting hands is pretty frustrating, which is ironic considering that's what it should be doing to the opponent. Let me also add that if your opponent is playing any sort of elves or decent mana acceleration, even Armageddon is a pretty useless card a lot of times, especially in games 2 or 3 where they might hold some land back.
I think that for this deck to work more consistently, it might have to let go of the white and go with blue like Q-Ball has mentioned and possibly black for some tutoring or spot removal. Maybe a U/B version could work? Probably not a discussion to have in the "Armageddon Stax" thread though, maybe a more general "Stax" thread would be a better option.
SP is cool, realy cool. But if we don't run stax we need to support de permanent destruction which SP doesn't give. Wrath?? Powder keg?Quote:
Originally Posted by 4zureSky
Since suppression field doesn't give us the permanent destruction maybe, MAYBE we can go for World Queller? We can name whatever we want and we can make it act as an alternative stax. Bad thing about World Queller is that its a creature :( Stp, edicts, and other creature removal spells will take it away from us :( I still find stax useful in some cases but not as much as suppression field =/ With all these people playing fetchlands, wastes, and creature abilties I can say suppression will help us a lot especially against zoo. But like GoldenCid said, what do we replace the stax abillity with?
Why not white/blue?
Propaganda AND Ghostly prison?
The abilities stack, so you could deny an opponent any ability to attack.
Suppression field, sure.
Keep Armageddon.
Do we really need Magus then?
I'm just wondering as I haven't tried it myself, but could replacing Smokestak with Lodestone Golem help?
It makes the deck more aggressive in many ways as Smokestack takes a couple of turns before it starts to effect the board in any meaningful way.
And by making the deck more aggressive, we wouldn't nearly as reliant on locking down the opponent.
If we are going for white/blue stax I think compulsive research will be awesome since we can draw 3 and discard a land card :D And Jace, the Mind Sculptor!
Edit: I am looking at Dream Cache, Exclude, and Borrowing 100,000 arrows right now.
I am very against the Blue splash for a couple different reasons...
First of all, what the deck needs isn't card draw, it's card choice. This is the sort of thing that Canadian Threshold gets by using Ponders or Brainstorms w/ fetchlands. The deck isn't really drawing bunches of cards, it's just getting the ones it needs. Drawing an extra three cards won't do that as often as you'd like; you need tutors. This is one reason I swear by Knight of the Reliquary. He offers you the option of having a toolbox of lands, including wastelands, Kor Haven, Horizon Canopy, Gargoyle Castle, or even Flagstones of Trokair.
I could actually see running some sort of wishboard for Stax, something that no one has ever really tried before (to my knowledge). Options include (most likely) Living Wish or Burning Wish, since Golden Wish costs 5. Living wish would basically replace Knight as a land tutor that can also randomly grab creatures you might need, such as Aven Mindcensor.
So, for the love of Jehova, or whatever gods people worship nowadays, stop worrying so much about card draw, and focus on winning the game. Cheap, easy solutions are often best. Tutors > Card draw.
I have to agree on you Isei about knight of the reliquary. His really a nice fight to the deck. But even with knight present the problem with stax is still its very inconsistent hand or draw like what the above poster had posted.
Suppression field is really a nice addition main and removing smokestack in the list for it might be okay..
@Isei
have you tried out suppression main paired with the knight ?
Supression field affects Knight, btw. My question is, what is Supression Field going to do against decks like Zoo? Make them pay 2 to fetch? It slows down Lavamancer and pridemage, but it's not like they don't have time. You aren't solving any problems, just delaying them; you'll still need to find an answer soon. Smokestack on the other hand is the answer you need. So maybe play them in tandem? Certainly supression field instead of smokestack seems weak.