All B/R update speculation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

On the second point: 4x hypothetical Torpor Orb land + 4x Dreadnought is not a good deck.

---

If the land produces mana and has no EtB restriction i heavily disagree. Its a very slick 2 card combo and the land itself is a 0cc hate itself for Snappys & Co. I cant name any two card, one mana combo with more impact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

If the land produces mana and has no EtB restriction i heavily disagree. Its a very slick 2 card combo and the land itself is a 0cc hate itself for Snappys & Co. I cant name any two card, one mana combo with more impact.

---

Tomb Chalice.

You missed the whole part in my last post about how it's powerful does not equal it wins; cause it's pretty antagonistic to everything the other ~44 cards in the deck are doing. We're also talking about a pointless hypothetical which we've already stated could be worded to allay the fears of a turn 1 Dreadnought unable to Daze & no evasion, in a combo that would lose to Wasteland, from taking over the format.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

How is a 1 mana 12/12 trample shittier than a 3 mana 15/15 from a tempo and deckbuilding aspect? Dreadnought and the land in question would be a straight boon to the aggro-control supertype making it even more pointless to run clunky decks like SnT in order to "go large" in the format.

A 12/12 T1 on the play is absurd to handle in Legacy especially with the presence of 0cc counters/discard. Oh and of course it goes well with the cantrip shell and has no tempo-/carddisadvabtage if answered either.

---

It's shittier because the dreadnought might win you the game where as the emrakul almost garuntees it. Slap anhilator and protection onto a dreadnought and we'll talk. You also get to pair emrakul with grisdlebrand. Dreadnought gets... Eater of Days?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Tomb Chalice.

You missed the whole part in my last post about how it's powerful does not equal it wins

---

Come back once Chalice has a body equaling a 2 turn clock.

Chalice equals a win only against 1cc.dec while Dreadnought gives a fuck about the opponents decks average cmc

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

Come back once Chalice has a body equaling a 2 turn clock.

Chalice equals a win only against 1cc.dec while Dreadnought gives a fuck about the opponents decks average cmc

---

There is a large disconnect between "that is a thing" and whether or not it's actually viable. 4x Torpor land and 4x Dreadnought isn't a successful deck idea. You can do it, it's powerful, it's also high variance (not winning) b/c it's not a gameplan. It's a bad land that endangers the whole idea of Delver, Standstill, Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland. Are we getting that this isn't actually a thing now? I mean we can go throught the list of every Goblin there is or that they could print, and no matter what Lackey is still okay - it can be powerful, and still be fine. Emmy could be creature type Goblin, and it would be stupid, but it'd be fine.

Just like Chalice, the more successful a symmetrical effect is, the more it has to deal with itself - so if this hypothetical Torpor land/Dreadnought is the new tier 1 (which is ridiculous), they would start losing games b/c they played Torpor land into another Dreadnought opponent. I'm not sure why we're still going on about "that's too good" when again, we could just reword the hypothetical. The whole point here is maybe it's time we got some ETB value hate to force them to diversify or suffer the consequences. (PS Strix still has deathtouch)

I certainly dont disagree with more EtB hate being required which does not suck like Torpor Orb by itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

Come back once Chalice has a body equaling a 2 turn clock.

Chalice equals a win only against 1cc.dec while Dreadnought gives a fuck about the opponents decks average cmc

---

Please show me the legacy deck that has no answer to a singular creature over the course of three turns?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Please show me the legacy deck that has no answer to a singular creature over the course of three turns?

---

It's the age old "because it can be answered by anything" reply. That doesn't matter.

A land like that would free up loads of design space, it would become similar to Stage-Depths, but in fact, better. You don't need to wait until turn three (like you would with Urborg), you wouldn't be susceptible to Wasteland and you don't need a second spell of any kind to ensure a card like Phyrexian Dreadnought resolves as a normal creature would. There's practically no stack interaction, and it's splashable into multiple archetypes, probably opening up new ones in the process.

Assassin's Trophy would be invalidated, and decks would shift their hate to needing Swords, Decay, etc. Fuck, I would play four Welding Jar and tell people to kiss my ass. (Not really, but you get the point.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Michael Keller

It's the age old "because it can be answered by anything" reply. That doesn't matter.

A land like that would free up loads of design space, it would become similar to Stage-Depths, but in fact, better. You don't need to wait until turn three (like you would with Urborg), you wouldn't be susceptible to Wasteland and you don't need a second spell of any kind to ensure a card like Phyrexian Dreadnought resolves as a normal creature would. There's practically no stack interaction, and it's splashable into multiple archetypes, probably opening up new ones in the process.

Assassin's Trophy would be invalidated, and decks would shift their hate to needing Swords, Decay, etc. Fuck, I would play four Welding Jar and tell people to kiss my ass. (Not really, but you get the point.)

---

Do you...do you know how any of these cards work?
Like honest question, and I won't be mad if you, do you know how etb triggers work and when they would go onto the stack? Because just about none of what you said was true.

Can we just admit that paying two mana to turn literally a quarter of the cards in a given game of Magic (on both sides of the table, obv.) into copies of Jack of Clubs is worse for the game than either seeing three cards for one mana or getting a 12/12 for the same? That'd be really great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Do you...do you know how any of these cards work?
Like honest question, and I won't be mad if you, do you know how etb triggers work and when they would go onto the stack? Because just about none of what you said was true.

---

I'm totally confused about what you're insinuating, because this isn't hard.

If you have a land that has a static Torpor Orb ability, playing a Dreadnought costs a single colorless mana off of said land, making the investment virtually nothing. To answer a 12/12 on turn one say, on the draw, you had better have a Swords or turn-two removal spell. The only ubiquitous two one-mana spells that exist to handle that at one mana in the format are Swords and Push. The point is, regardless if those cards exist, playing a 12/12 for one mana that involves no other spell to cheat it in (like an actual Torpor Orb, Stifle, etc.) is ridiculously overpowered - especially in a format where Crop Rotation exists.

I think the key here understanding what the actual text would be of such a card, and where you feel I'm confused about triggered abilities - because I'm not. The combo would put too many other decks on the backfoot too fast, and absolutely force those decks to answer it or die. I mean, you could even run Berserk or Temur Battle Rage and consistently win on turn two against most fair decks. It would be terrifying. To put it into context - look at the design space setup and life investment Dimir Shadow has to make just to - maybe - get a 7/7 or 8/8 into play by turn three. This would put a 12/12 (trampler, mind you) into play turn one at virtually no cost.

(The Stage-Depths correlation was indicating a combo that exists largely on turn three (max, unless you have Urborg+Depths+Hexmage), and can be nullified by Wasteland. Playing this other discussed imaginary land and casting a Dreadnought for a colorless mana renders Wasteland virtually useless, because the last thing your opponent would care about under those circumstances is destroying that land while staring down a 12/12 - and they can't respond to you tapping a land for mana.)

He's saying that if Wasteland is in play, and they cast Dread with Torpor land, you Waste on the stack and Dread dies

I'm all for decks that lose to Wasteland and Maze, but this seems like a bad idea. Even if I would like the proposed land myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

He's saying that if Wasteland is in play, and they cast Dread with Torpor land, you Waste on the stack and Dread dies

---

So what? Do you tell me the deck cant run Wastes or stifles to combat opposing Wasteland? Ever Dark Depths deck has the same issue, but this iteration can drop its fatty T1 off 1 land and 1 mana unlike Dark Depths

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

So what? Do you tell me the deck cant run Wastes or stifles to combat opposing Wasteland? Ever Dark Depths deck has the same issue, but this iteration can drop its fatty T1 off 1 land and 1 mana unlike Dark Depths

---

Actually yes, there is no 4x Torpor land good blue deck. Remember that 8x Fetch, 6x mana producers, 4x Wasteland, and 4x Torpor land isn't good 'cause that equals 22 lands and you can't play Standstill (and really shouldn't play Delver) - the increase in dead draws goes up and games are going to go longer. So Daze is probably out, and now we start questioning blue count and the viability of Stifle and FoW. You could stay at 18 lands and run zero Wasteland, which then means Stifle and Daze are fairly worthless since you can't deny mana effectively. The mana doesn't work and b/c of that it would never be a real deck running 4x Torpor lands. At best you'd be seeing maybe one of these hypothetical lands in a maindeck and another in the board.

What you might see is a UG version with a soft 4x Torpor lands by using 2-3x Crop Rotations as virtual copies, but...it's UG, so I'm kinda fine with a deck that's those colors and might play Greenbelt Rampager, Scythe Tiger, and Tempting Wurm (except Goyf is what you'd play here) if they wanted to maximize the build around negating ETB. Also Let's be honest, who doesn't want to see Rogue Elephant and Greenbelt attacking into Strix and Crop Rot into Elephant Graveyard?

If we're being realistic about a deck running 4x Torpor land I think we all know it starts with these 15 not-blue lands: 4x Torpor land, 4x Thespian's Stage, 4x Dark Depths, 3x Urborg. The creatures would be 4x Dreadnought, 4x Hunted Horror, and 4x Hexmage. I'm not sure why I'd care about a high variance mono-black 2-card monty, nor the same deck playing even more lands to get access to a second color (green) as either deck fills out the remaining slots with discard.

So again the turn 1 Dreadnought is still a 'thing' you can do, but let's take that step back and remember that Wasteland and the hypothetical Torpor land don't cast colored spells, nor can they alt-cast a Daze. This is a rather pervasive misconception people get from the term "StifleNought" - a simple A+B combo is not really what the deck is about, instead it is built to accommodate that aspect. Piloting it with the A+B mentality is a losing strategy.

I think we would need to know what the exact text of such a card would be. Are we talking about a static effect that hits all creatures, or something similar to a Cavern effect where it only counts for the creature you're playing? If it's static and affects everything, that would be crushing for decks like Elves, Goblins and to a smaller extent DnT. It would throttle Snapcaster Mage and open up decks for cool ideas.

But it would still be nuts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Michael Keller

I think we would need to know what the exact text of such a card would be. Are we talking about a static effect that hits all creatures, or something similar to a Cavern effect where it only counts for the creature you're playing? If it's static and affects everything, that would be crushing for decks like Elves, Goblins and to a smaller extent DnT. It would throttle Snapcaster Mage and open up decks for cool ideas.

But it would still be nuts.

---

It would definitely punish people for trying to play value rather than choosing to interact with Wasteland. Elves still gets cast triggers to untap Sentinel and draw off Glimpse; they just lose the obnoxious Symbiote/Visionary spam and would have to settle for a 5/5 haste rather than turning all their guys into Dreadnoughts for a turn. Goblins and DnT play Vial, which means Wasteland, so they'd be fine - I also don't see how a land that kind of hates on the nonsense Vial enables is that unhealthy. As stated before, if it were that much of a concern you could have it say "works vs owner at all times, only works vs opponent when untapped" to give DnT/Goblins 4 more answers (Port).

The SCM decks can choose to still not play Wasteland and they'd still have Mentor/Entreat and flying removal spells (Strix), so I wouldn't feel too bad for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Actually yes, there is no 4x Torpor land good blue deck.

---

Yeah, because we talk the viability of a HYPOTHETICAL card. What's next? Pointing me to the lack of GPs the deck has won so far? Ffs, man.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Remember that 8x Fetch, 6x mana producers, 4x Wasteland, and 4x Torpor land isn't good 'cause that equals 22 lands and you can't play Standstill (and really shouldn't play Delver)

---

Why the actual fuck is STANDSTILL now a criteria or topic?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

Yeah, because we talk the viability of a HYPOTHETICAL card. What's next? Pointing me to the lack of GPs the deck has won so far? Ffs, man.
Why the actual fuck is STANDSTILL now a criteria or topic?

---

So you don't play Dreadnought, you don't have years of experience with it, and you don't really get that a Torpor Orb land means very little to overall build. Thus we arrive at the point where a non-Dreadnought user says: people would be spamming both playsets of the Torpor land and 12/12s everywhere to success.

That's okay, most people don't actually know what constitutes a Dreadnought deck. The knee-jerk reaction of 'that's too good, it would be a problem everywhere' explains why you think such a deck can jam in 4 more colorless lands and keep doing the exact same thing like Wastelanding and Stifling and Dazing and FoWing without realizing the implications of those are 4 more colorless lands. If you know anything about Dreadnought other than just "StifleNought" means A+B, you'd know that you are talking about Standstill, Factory, Delver, and the whole system of mana denial as well.

So when you say:

Quote:

---

Do you tell me the deck cant run Wastes or stifles to combat opposing Wasteland?

---

^Yes, I'm telling you exactly that. Also, the most cheese-based strat would probably be mono-black 2-card monty - which can't cast Stifle, and already has 8 lands off the bat that tap for colorless, so you kinda don't really want to tag on 4 more colorless (Wastelands on top of Torpor land/Stage in a deck without any manipulation). The premise that a land that lets you turn 1 a Dreadnought is too dangerous is kinda ridiculous.

The point of this whole tangent is that they banned the best non-ETB creature in legacy (DRS) and they have failed to replace his anti-SCM (challenging recursion) and anti-Strix (drain~not trading down a card vs deathtouch), and predictably such creatures are overrunning the format - and it's about time everyone gets a tool to hate em out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Michael Keller

It's the age old "because it can be answered by anything" reply. That doesn't matter.

A land like that would free up loads of design space, it would become similar to Stage-Depths, but in fact, better. You don't need to wait until turn three (like you would with Urborg), you wouldn't be susceptible to Wasteland and you don't need a second spell of any kind to ensure a card like Phyrexian Dreadnought resolves as a normal creature would. There's practically no stack interaction, and it's splashable into multiple archetypes, probably opening up new ones in the process.

Assassin's Trophy would be invalidated, and decks would shift their hate to needing Swords, Decay, etc. Fuck, I would play four Welding Jar and tell people to kiss my ass. (Not really, but you get the point.)

---

Well, ok, since you insist:
It's not that it could be answered it's that it could be answered by everything. Your can discard, kill, tap, do literally anything to a dreadnought. It has no evasion. There is no deck that can't handle such a creature.
So let's look at all these cards you named and why, actually, they do hit dreadnought:
Stage depths is better than torpor/naught because 20/20 is leathal in 1 swing, is indestructible, is instant speed, and flies. They're both combos that, under ideal circumstances, can't be lethal before turn 3. T1 cast, T2 swing, t3 swing for dreadnought, t1 urborg, t2 depths hexmage, swing t3 for marit lege. They're also both lands so you can crop rot for both halves of the combo, and get to play your etb triggers as normal.
You would be susceptible to wasteland because dreadnought is still a spell and could be responded to. If the land is destroyed before then dreadnought arrives hungry as ever.
Assassin's trophy can still kill a dreadnought, which can't kill you in one turn. Assassin's trophy can also kill a fancy land. Decks are already running swords, push, and decay all of which kill a dreadnought. You want to add welding jar and go all in on this combo? Well it does nothing against swords, path, edict, grudgr or console's judgement. All cards currently played.
Like I said upthread: I've played many a turn one dreadnought. I've played it with force, I've played it with hymn, heck, last time I played it with ugin. If your plan is "T1 dreadnought, answer or die" you will lose. I know because I have. For years.

Depths under Ideal circumstances is turn one. Manabond. Yep. It's stupid rare

Just because something can be answered does not mean it's healthy, safe or smart. If your playing a deck without selection going up against one that is built to abuse this, you need to find a 4 of naturally. It's not a good idea.

That said, it's sweet sideboard tec in Lands and any removal you spend on something I control with less than 20 power is ok by me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Just because something can be answered does not mean it's healthy, safe or smart.

---

Aye, but is it worse than the ETB-crew largely pushing out non-ETB guys; and is it worse/less healthy than SCM flashback Surgical/Hymn/Kcomm/whatever leading to increasing TNN and [looser association] TNN/SnT/Eldrazi play?

Land, 12/12, go. I would say that is worse than a SnT or hymm shit because it's so very little invested for so much. Your not talking about needing 3 cards here, and you are talking about something that will chew up more non Blue decks.

If your response is "You can find an answer" your almost guaranteed to be pushing the format more Blue. Because the decks that can find answers are those with cantrips and removal, not those with just removal.

Also, just because there is broken shit in this format does not mean we need more. "Hey shits already fucked" is not a good excuse for more fucked up shit. We have problems already in Legacy, let's not compound them.

Or you know, do, and I will rotate for the land. I'm likely playing one of the few remaining non Blue piles that can abuse this idea.

Your message box is full @Dice_Box :tongue:

Anyways the thing is, the 2x 4-of Dreadnought/Torpor land isn't a winning deck idea, and it's certainly opposed to anything blue at 4x levels. There's the UG Crop Rot stuff with 1 actual copy [maybe], but you're mostly talking about a 4x + 1x phenomenon; this would be rare.

It's empty now.

I don't care if we are talking 2 of or 4 of or a combo deck built around it, if you designed this and put it on my desk I would ask how does this make Legacy better? I don't think anyone has a good answer to that.

If you want to kill Snapcaster your better off targeting the yard anyway.

I'm gonna be that guy. In the name of all that is good and holy please learn the difference between "your" and "you're", Dice Box; I want to read your posts but my eyes are bleeding.

I know the difference, I don't care.

Just make it ETB tapped. Or have it not produce any mana, or artifact mana only. I mean we are talking about a hypothetical card that won't get printed any time soon given WotC's stupid new design policy, might as well go wild with suggestions.

I still stand by my Magus of the Chalice, Magus of the Trinisphere as well as Duospheres and Monospheres. I won't have a rest untl playing bad cards is actually good, and playing good (cheap) cards gets punished.

Sometimes I wonder how much the printing of the Storm mechanic had to do with the rise to dominance of Blue/Brainstorm decks.

Before Storm decks combo decks were exactly that, a combination of specific cards that did something amazing. Post storm combo decks were giant piles of redundant spells that often could win off of just one card (Ad Naus, PiF, etc). When it was a mix of cards that needed to work together, you could fight that with discard or varied removal timed correctly. Once the changeover to Storm happened, that ceased being an option, so if you weren't packing FoW, you could count on a game one loss to combo. In turn, this shifted how both blue, and non blue decks were constructed main and sideboard - non-blue had to devote more resources to combo, even if they were already packing discard, and blue became a much more attractive choice, especially because you didn't have to worry as much about 1-for-2ing yourself with FoW being followed up by a second Hymn or something else nearly as often.

This effect in the metagame eventually got replaced by white taxing effects, so I guess after several years it's been a wash, but it's still something to think about.

TL;DR: ban every card with the word "Storm" on it, and all the OP blue creatures and Show and Tell, because WotC clearly will not stop printing giant dumb monsters, and we'll have a much more diverse format where a lot more things are viable in the Tier 1.5ish space and can occasionally take down a tournament.

I think its pretty simple, ban these four and the format will be way more diverse.

Brainstorm
Ponder
Show and Tell
Dark Depths

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

So you don't play Dreadnought, you don't have years of experience with it, and you don't really get that a Torpor Orb land means very little to overall build. Thus we arrive at the point where a non-Dreadnought user says: people would be spamming both playsets of the Torpor land and 12/12s everywhere to success.

That's okay, most people don't actually know what constitutes a Dreadnought deck.

---

So you claim that a hypothetical future Deadnought Deck has to run Standstill, because the decktype ran Standstills 6 years ago before it vanished?

Guess UW Miracles was never a deck in the first place because UW control has to run Standstills and Fact or Fictions out of tradition, i guess?

Decks have to be reinvented and adjusted to the meta. It's bollocks to root arguments on outdated cards. You are like the people who evaluated Survival being a safe unban based on 8y old list without even considering that DRS is an obvious boon to the deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Also, the most cheese-based strat would probably be mono-black 2-card monty - which can't cast Stifle, and already has 8 lands off the bat that tap for colorless, so you kinda don't really want to tag on 4 more colorless (Wastelands on top of Torpor land/Stage in a deck without any manipulation). The premise that a land that lets you turn 1 a Dreadnought is too dangerous is kinda ridiculous.

---

...as its ridiculous to dismiss how easy FoW + T1 12/12 can win you games or how easy the cantrip shell it makes to assemble 2-card-combos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

The point of this whole tangent is that they banned the best non-ETB creature in legacy (DRS) and they have failed to replace his anti-SCM (challenging recursion) and anti-Strix (drain~not trading down a card vs deathtouch), and predictably such creatures are overrunning the format - and it's about time everyone gets a tool to hate em out.

---

I never questioned that. EtB value creatures already define modern and standart without viable hate to them. I guess its intended from WotCs side that these creatures replace spells in their classic form.

I honestly don't know what peoples issue with Depths is. It's a good card, goes in good decks, but it's no Emrakul off a SnT or Sneak Attack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

So you claim that a hypothetical future Deadnought Deck has to run Standstill, because the decktype ran Standstills 6 years ago before it vanished?

Guess UW Miracles was never a deck in the first place because UW control has to run Standstills and Fact or Fictions out of tradition, i guess?

...as its ridiculous to dismiss how easy FoW + T1 12/12 can win you games or how easy the cantrip shell it makes to assemble 2-card-combos.

I never questioned that. EtB value creatures already define modern and standart without viable hate to them. I guess its intended from WotCs side that these creatures replace spells in their classic form.

---

My point is that people would play 2x 4-ofs is absurd, particularly in a blue shell where you're talking about how they'd Stifle and Wasteland to protect the Torpor land - you can't just add that and pretend it's a thing that wins games. There are cards which the archetype plays, particularly in the most common presentation, so you shouldn't be blown away when I start talking about Delver, Standstill, or land counts vs mana denial. Same thing with Force of Will - what blue cards sir? Sleeving up 4 more colorless lands = no Standstill, horrid Delver flips, lands presumably at 22 which kills Daze, which then makes mana denial (Stifle/Wasteland) look quite poor...and now we're down to a deck with FoW + a more questionable Brainstorm + now-dubious Stifle and not enough cards to alt-cast FoW with any kind of coherent plan and 8 colorless-only lands. Explain how they're casting FoW or denying mana in the 8 colorless land shell, because it sounds a bit ridiculous.

So again yes, the turn-1 Dreadnought would be 'a thing' that could happen - it's not a gameplan, it's not consistent, and it's not going to win reliably. You can't just add 4 more colorless lands and pretend like it's the same deck with all the same tools and start making credible inferences about how much of a problem it would be. Start adding cantrips and now you're talking about the crappiest SnT-analogue ever made, whose only benefit is sometimes you can make a 12/12 on turn 1??? Like sure that 22 land deck that can't really run Delver or Daze anymore at least has Stifle, Wasteland, enough blue for FoW with extra cantrips - this is an upgrade for the deck how?

As far as UW goes, Standstill and FoF are a great way to win less games than playing Counterbalance combo (while also being unable to ever beat the Counterbalance matchup). You're listing off worse strategies there, but doing the opposite and advocating for a garbage version of Dreadnought as the next best thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I honestly don't know what peoples issue with Depths is. It's a good card, goes in good decks, but it's no Emrakul off a SnT or Sneak Attack.

---

The only thing I have about Depths is that it took a super interesting control/prison lands deck and turned it into a combo prison thing. That's more on stage, but I always liked the 3 and 4 color lands decks hell-bent on full on resource denial, recurring EE every turn, and winning with a tar pit after you've exhausted your opponent or even just using academy ruins to Mill your opponent by putting Mox diamond on top every turn. That and it's given the rise to turbo Depths, just another derp I win combo deck for the apes. I don't think it's too good. Just uninteresting

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I honestly don't know what peoples issue with Depths is. It's a good card, goes in good decks, but it's no Emrakul off a SnT or Sneak Attack.

---

I 100% agree, but I also don't think SnT or Sneak are a ban-worthy cards either. I'm usually the one slinging Depths (@Megadeus: admitted ape here, loving my 20/20's, lol. I have the body hair to back it up too, wanna see?:tongue:) However, I don't mind facing against it with other decks as well. It's the kind of anomaly that should exist in Legacy IMHO (powerful strategy, but not oppressive.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I 100% agree, but I also don't think SnT or Sneak are a ban-worthy cards either. I'm usually the one slinging Depths (@Megadeus: admitted ape here, loving my 20/20's, lol. I have the body hair to back it up too, wanna see?:tongue:) However, I don't mind facing against it with other decks as well. It's the kind of anomaly that should exist in Legacy IMHO (powerful strategy, but not oppressive.)

---

I'm playing painter right now so I can't really complain about A+B combo. I just am salty. It is nice that there's an incredibly powerful non blue combo deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megadeus

I'm playing painter right now so I can't really complain about A+B combo. I just am salty. It is nice that there's an incredibly powerful non blue combo deck.

---

Local player is playing mono-blue Painter, and it's pretty funny considering your comment. The fact that these types of combos can be effective in the current metagame is really encouraging, at least to me. Storm seems to be climbing back into the metagame as well, likely due to the decks preying on Miracles/Grixis giving them good matchups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

No type of playable ETB hate exists, and b/c of that we're reaching a point where you can't win in legacy without non-ETB guys.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

It's a bad land that endangers the whole idea of Delver, Standstill, Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland.

The whole point here is maybe it's time we got some ETB value hate to force them to diversify or suffer the consequences.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dice_Box

If your response is "You can find an answer" your almost guaranteed to be pushing the format more Blue. Because the decks that can find answers are those with cantrips and removal, not those with just removal.

---

Dice has this right - if anything, this land would produce MORE Grixis Delver - Delver doesn't have an ETB ability, neither does Gurmag, and Grixis is the most likely to be playing all the answers that work against 'Naught (Force, Push, Daze if they're on the play, Wasteland your ETB-hate land and Strix you anyway, even shit like Abrade or whatever). I think the deck trying to do the proposed land into Dreadnaught just wouldn't be good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Also Let's be honest, who doesn't want to see Rogue Elephant and Greenbelt attacking into Strix and Crop Rot into Elephant Graveyard?

---

Meanwhile, this wouldn't just be "not that good," this would be stone cold unplayable.

Moreover, I question the motivation to incentivize "stat line" creatures. Delver is a "stat-line" creature, Gurmag is a "stat-line" creature...and why do we want to just bump a bunch of efficient, vanilla guys into each other? P3K or literally any limited format can provide that sort of battle, if you're interested in it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chunderbucket

I still stand by my Magus of the Chalice, Magus of the Trinisphere as well as Duospheres and Monospheres. I won't have a rest untl playing bad cards is actually good, and playing good (cheap) cards gets punished.

---

:laugh: Now THAT'S an honest player. Those cards sound miserable, but at least you're upfront about wanting the format to be miserable for it's own sake, rather than pretending getting rid of cantrips or something will make the format better somehow! :tongue:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by morgan_coke

Before Storm decks, combo decks were a combination of specific cards that did something amazing. Post storm combo decks were giant piles of redundant spells that often could win off of just one card (Ad Naus, PiF, etc). When it was a mix of cards that needed to work together, you could fight that with discard or varied removal timed correctly.

---

That's exactly what I love about Storm, though - it's more of a puzzle, and requires more than just assembling two particular cards. It what makes Storm the more interactive and interesting kind of combo deck, because it isn't just about knocking out one of two arbitrary pieces - you have to engage with it holistically. Grixis Delver vs. Storm and Miracles Vs. Storm pre-bannings were great examples of complex, interactive magic that was more than just, "here's A+B, do you have the Force or whatever?"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman

I think its pretty simple, ban these four and the format will be way more diverse.

Brainstorm
Ponder
Show and Tell
Dark Depths

---

At the risk of taking the bait here, what do you actually think this would change about the format? Why do you think it would make it better?

Imagine a format without Brainstorm and Ponder but Griselbrand and Entomb are still legal, no thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whitefaces

Imagine a format without Brainstorm and Ponder but Griselbrand and Entomb are still legal, no thanks.

---

Yea, seems weird. I’d almost say that ponder would be easier to ban only cuz brainstorm is such a easy card to misplay. Ponder has a lower skill threshold, but still is immensely good. Also, BS has fringe interactions with Leovold, sylvan library and dack fayden, notion thief.
I feel like the big legacy tournaments seem to have a pretty ok variety in decks though. Is the B/R list not working?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk