Printable View
4x Energy Field
3x Rest in Peace
1x Helm
4x Counterbalance
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Swords
4x Terminus
4x Divining top
2x Counterspell
2x Monastery Mentor
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
6x Island
2x Plains
3x Tundra
Sideboard is TBD because I like the idea of main B2B, but will probably side into red for options.
There are enough graveyard decks in meta that I think this list will be good. When I have evidence to the contrary I will tinker with my list.
I don't have any experience with this sub-type, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I actually think the regular builds are more powerful, but the thought experiment of brewing RiP+Helm is interesting :)Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
4 Energy Fields seem like a lot. It doesn't do much without RiP in play.
No Enlightened Tutor?
The combo(s) is rather vulnerable to Abrupt Decay. Would Misdirection type effects be worth considering?
A maindeck solution to Chalice of the Void @ 1 seems like a must. Probably Engineered Explosives, if you are adding Enlightened Tutor anyway.
A couple of caveats:
1) E.T. does not like CotV@1
2) EE is less flexible with only two colours.
Something like Oblivion Ring could be considered instead.
3 Tundras seem unnecessary with no WW spells.
With that mana base, I would consider adding Back to Basics as an additional silver bullet. It is also a 3 CMC card that can be E.Tutored for.
Mentors could be changed to Vendilion Cliques, as they can pressure AND protect the combo. In that case I would add 1-2 Karakas as well. This will make you more all-in on the combo, but I think you need to maximize the combo element to justify not playing the usual build with a red splash.
I would be tempted to cut down on creature removal, as you have the EF+RiP combo to make creatures mostly irrelevant anyway.
Something like this:
Deck: Miracles RiP+EF+Helm 20160817a http://deckstats.net/mana/m/w.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif
//Lands
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
//Spells
1 Back to Basics
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
3 Energy Field
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
3 Rest in Peace
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
//Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
//Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
1 Containment Priest
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Misdirection
1 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics
the 4 Mentors in the board as a "transformation option" are probably too cute, as the game play such a deck would want to execute is vulnerable to much of the same hate anyway. Additional Vendilion Cliques might be better; the more I think about it, the more I like them in the deck.
Mentor could be a powerful sideboard card, but does not seem main deck worthy here.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozimek
Thanks for brainstorming with me.
My thought on 4 Energy field was that you could fetch early, and jam one to slow the game down depending on your match up, as i said previously most decks want to deal damage to you, so short of MD discard this could buy you an amount of turns. I wanted more permanents in the deck so i wouldn't have to discard down to hand size ever, if you turn 1 top, turn 2 EF, the plan is to casually sculpt a perfect hand.
I do like the philosophy of getting the opponent to their end game, so I am in no rush to find the helm or mentors in the deck. If I was going to cut removal I would maybe want more counterspells or something: making me want to go into red for a REB/pyroclasm (I've always liked the idea of main Wear//Tear because Legacy consists of 99% 1 and 2 drops), also making EE an option.
I have always been more a fan of Entreat as a win con over Mentor, but to keep energy field in mind I thought a permanent based threat would be ideal.
4 RIP might be better for my meta, as they are mostly graveyard decks, but it could be SB for stability.
Naked Energy Field is a perilous plan, as I trust you will see with experience. Discard is only one problem you create for yourself. You won't always have two basics to cast the Energy Field, opening you up to Wasteland. Also, when you've cast your Turn 2 Energy Field, you can no longer Force of Will or Brainstorm or Ponder. You really just make land drops, and this isn't profitable unless you were on the play and landed Turn 1 Top (neither of these things you have much control over, unless you plan to mull to Top). Turn 1 Top is worse if you can't fetch to shuffle away the worst cards it shows you. Plus, if you decide to cast anything after Energy Field is in play and your spell/permanent gets countered, you lose the Energy Field. And if you had to fight a counterwar over something scary your opponent played, the Energy Field still goes away.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
As a person who is always playing against Miracles, I would love to play against a 4 Energy Field build with almost any Legacy deck. The card is an unplayable liability that sets up 2-for-1's in your opponent's favor unless you are all-in on Rest in Peace, and in that case, you still don't ever play four Energy Field. Go back and read older posts here from when Rest in Peace was new if you want more details than my summary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ESG
This may be the wrong way for me to plan my Legacy life, but I tend to look at top8 major events to see what's going on, and there is a ton of aggro style decks currently, with a few miracles and Delvers. I feel like chance of running into a bunch of counters is pretty low currently, (and also for the meta I am playing in) The scariest thing I can think of (which is also probably wrong) is my opponent sneaking or showing an Emrakul into play, which I would want to counter, otherwise they can cast what they want. I do agree it's a perilous plan, but that's why I would want 4, the first one is just to stall, and if I need to cast a better spell or counter something important, I am ready to.
Not trying to say my build is right or good, just my thoughts on it.
This type of build of the deck makes me happy as a player, and I want to run something entertaining like it. I feel like there is not much room for change from the communities perspective, but this is a Legacy Development thread. Metas change, decks change, what used to be terrible may suddenly work one day, it's un...predictable.
From the perspective of experimentation, it's generally a good idea to start with a high number of copies. Test games will reveal whether the idea has merit or not, and whether it might be better to cut some copies and perhaps cover those slots with Enlightened Tutors or some different cards entirely.
I didn't really do that systematically when I started working with RIP/Helm, I began with 2 Energy Field 3 Rest In Peace 2 Enlightened Tutor from a list from the past. I quickly found myself cutting these numbers back because of the unusual fragility of Energy Field. It seems like only corner cases and Abrupt Decay that can really remove this card profitably, but I found that almost every MU had those corner cases somehow. Moat does almost the same thing with no questions and no problems, so I'm happy running that instead.
I think that unless you are playing the combo because you like it then you're better off refining your play with a stock Miracles list. Generic Miracles can beat anything if played well. At least for me I prefer practice over brew.
From what I understood you wanted to experiment with these card choices because of your meta and the amount of aggro decks. I think you'll net better results overall if you just play more miracles than branching off into a sub-archetype.
Don't mean to sound harsh or anything, but Miracles is an exceptionally hard deck to play well. There are other decks that funnel into day two in bigger numbers, but those that make day 2 are usually very good players that tend to place high overall. This years GPs are an example where Miracles was the 4th most played deck in Day 2, but still occupied 2-3 slots in top8, whereas Eldrazi which was the most played deck day 2 didn't reach top8 in any of the GPs.
I have had the Miracles deck for at least a year now(maybe longer), I built it casually to have to test against/get better at magic/and have so my friends can practice against it. I will not make any such claims of being good with the deck, but I am comfortable with the 'stock' list, and I have a habit of wanting to evolve my decks.
I like Moat, I feel like there might be too many high impact flyers to worry about.
It does nothing against the reanimator I run into all the time. My buddy is also very lucky with that deck as when he plays against my Lands deck he almost ALWAYS goes off turn 1.
From my experience with Miracles, I want more counter spells, (not the card necessarily)
The last couple of days' spoilers have revealed trouble:
http://mythicspoiler.com/cn2/cards/sanctumprelate.jpg
Sanctum Prelate seems like horrible news for Terminus. :(
D&T can vial it in in response to a miracle trigger and set it to 6, or just set it to one or two, and be a pain. Note that you cannot even play the spells to trigger mentor, like you can against a Chalice@1.
Do we need to diversify sweepers? Problem is, Supreme Verdict can be extremely difficult to cast vs. D&T.
The immediate solutions I could think of, don't seem great:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...1095&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...6528&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...3365&type=card
For starters they are all red which is generally a liability. Having to name white with Sudden Demise could often result in friendly fire, and getting sufficient mana at sorcery speed could also be difficult. Being damage based they are also vulnerable to Mom.
http://mythicspoiler.com/cn2/cards/r...oftheguard.jpg
This new dude is also trouble, as it will give D&T and possibly Maverick style decks a tutor for disruptive creatures. How about a stoneblade revival? Chaining small creatuers with equipment on the battlefield could be hard to deal with.
Both of these cards will probably make D&T play more 3CMC creatures, which could make EE better, but again 3 mana at sorcery speed, and they have to be in 3 different colours.. Also EE@3 hits Mentor & Clique. Preemptive EE@1 to take out vials & moms ASAP seems good, and also more castable. Only Phyrexian Revoker stops that, but they will most likely name Top blindly anyway.
Do we need to panic? How do we adjust?
I don't like the one shot red answers as Mother of Runes saves Prelate as you say. Grim Lavamancer is a good option, hard for them to wasteland or port off if we have a Mountain.
EE is also OK, but 3cmc and needing 3 colours can be tricky vs DnT.
Moat is useless against Reanimator because you don't want the creatures to even hit the board. I play 4 FoW and 1 Spell Snare (hits Exhume and Animate Dead). If you play more creatures you have Clique and Venser which is really good in the match-up. Post-board you have 2-3 Flusterstorm and you can even side a few REB effects if you want to go nuts on their cantrips or if they side in Show&Tell. I don't see the need for more counterspells tbh. Especially not since you win by landing CB and protecting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...7608&type=card
It's not perfect, but it's not something Mum can stop and it wipes.
Stifle?Quote:
Originally Posted by ozimek
You can't Stifle anything about Prelate, if that's what you're referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
Maybe some Sudden Shocks would do the trick against the Prelate.
You don't want your answer to such a card to be rely much on red mana, we want to (ideally) be a two color deck when playing against DnT in most scenarios, so we'd have to look towards non-white cards in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
That being said, out of all of the answers so far, I'm a fan of Kozilek's Return over anything else because it also hits everything out of Grixis delver (minus Angler ofc).
It's also an Instant. So if your being Ported you can still cast it. It's also "Colourless" getting around Sofi and Mother. It was the best thing I can come up with on short notice. Honestly, this new COTV creature is going to fuck my deck. So I am happy to help keep it in check.
Heh, well thanks for your help =P.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I overall like the idea of KReturn and started testing it last night on my own with some suggestion from Hyperion =P.
Also, I'm thankful that new tools are being printed for non-miracles legacy decks so that perhaps the "Eye of Sauron" of the disdain of legacy players peers away from our deck for once =P. Perhaps that's a selfish way of thinking about things, but anyone that gets new tools to play with that isn't miracles makes me quite happy, so that they gain some more tools to fight the "miracles menace".
I'd like to address another weakness of these new DnT cards that most people seem to be glossing over and not addressing: Both of these new cards are 3CMC.
So the earliest that they will hit the board will be turn 3 normally or t4 via vial. This might not seem like the biggest detriment in the world, but I think something along these lines are exploitable. I think you can, theoretically, you can get "under" a lot of legacy decks and DnT will not have to be built with this new recruiter in mind. They WILL become slower than they used to be, and still heavily dependent on vial.
I think a lot of miracles players will agree that the DnT matchup is significantly easier if they don't have a vial or if their vial is "checked" somehow, via containment priest or wear//tear or disenchant, etc. I think it's important for us to now start overloading on hate for cards like this, more so than simply including 2 copies of wear//tear, which was the standby in the past.
Many people have already adjusted in this way, of course, because of Chalice of the Void coming out of Eldrazi and such, but just be cognizant that, going forward, we will need to keep an over-abundance of these effects. I'm currently on 2 MD EE and 2 W//T in the sideboard, and I think I'm even going to be wanting some containment priests in addition to that.
I'm not going to pitch what I'm currently playing here, mostly because it's moving between two very different builds constantly, so there's no point in presenting a solidified list if I don't have one =P but I think the idea of "going under" this new and improved DnT shell is definitely a viable approach.
I've honestly been thinking of putting a copy or 2 oof Priest in my main. I'm not sure how many important match ups it helps, but I feel like it's good against my bad match ups, so that has merit. As well as a blocker and a clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj