Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda

I've honestly been thinking of putting a copy or 2 oof Priest in my main. I'm not sure how many important match ups it helps, but I feel like it's good against my bad match ups, so that has merit. As well as a blocker and a clock.

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Nevermind, that's just a bad idea. Not sure what I was thinking.

Either way, we have 2 choices: Deal with Vial, or deal with this new creature.

I think that the better option is to deal with the creature. So the current idea is to exploit red with sweepers. Specifically low cost sweepers. Outside of this new card, what is the consensus on the D&T match up? I've always thought it was 50-50, ultimately coming down to skill.

So maybe we don't have to panic quite as much? At the end of the day, this card can always eat a sword. And if we need more swords, there's always Path to Exile, which is also good in the Bug and other creature match ups. I can even see taking out 2 Terminus in games 2 and 3 for 2 Path.

As Min referenced - I've been playing with Kozilek's Return in the sideboard since GP Columbus and I've been a big fan of it. It can be such a blowout versus Mom decks and stuff like Elves, Grixis etc. I've just liked it a lot more than Staticaster at the moment especially with most Grixis players not willing to shave bolts versus Miracles postboard.

Another card that might be worth playtesting with is Devastation Tide. I've played this card as a singleton from time to time just to experiment and it can be pretty vicious against Vial decks as most of the time they will end up discarding a few. Miracle it at EOT and then untapping and setting up countertop is a pretty nice sequence. It's even stronger when you get to bounce equipment pieces as well. In general, I don't like Pyroclasm-esque cards against DNT as you run into the same mom problem if they cut off Terminus with the Prelate.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...5720&type=card

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Originally Posted by hyp3r1on

As Min referenced - I've been playing with Kozilek's Return in the sideboard since GP Columbus and I've been a big fan of it. It can be such a blowout versus Mom decks and stuff like Elves, Grixis etc. I've just liked it a lot more than Staticaster at the moment especially with most Grixis players not willing to shave bolts versus Miracles postboard.

Another card that might be worth playtesting with is Devastation Tide. I've played this card as a singleton from time to time just to experiment and it can be pretty vicious against Vial decks as most of the time they will end up discarding a few. Miracle it at EOT and then untapping and setting up countertop is a pretty nice sequence. It's even stronger when you get to bounce equipment pieces as well.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...5720&type=card

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I like it. The only issue I see is the Extra mana in its miracle cost. This also seems like a great card to let them play right into when they think they have locked down our terminus.

This also seems like a great card for the Legends build because most of the creatures have ETB effects, they are creatures, so they get around taxation, and the build runs Karakas, which is good against the eldrazi deck and sneak and show and other decks we have trouble with.

Engineered Explosives already deals with. 2 md or 1 md and 1 sb is a good option (and also avoids Thalia's taxes).

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Originally Posted by Stefanogs

Engineered Explosives already deals with. 2 md or 1 md and 1 sb is a good option (and also avoids Thalia's taxes).

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How does it avoid the taxes? Is it just not affected?

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Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda

How does it avoid the taxes? Is it just not affected?

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You can cast EE using CMC of 3 but putting in only 2 colors for sunburst. For example, if my opponent has a resolved cb on the table but no form of library manipulation, in order to assure that it dies, I can tap Tundra Island Volcanic Plains to make EE cost 4 mana, but using only W and U for the sunburst effect. I then crack the EE, it would kill all permanents with CMC of 2, so the opposing counterbalance. Under Thalia tax (or other sphere effects) simply use an additional mana of a color you're already using so that the CMC is 1+the sunburst colors.

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Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda

How does it avoid the taxes? Is it just not affected?

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Say your opponent has a Sphere of Resistance and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in play. You can declare EE for 0 - then pay the tax of +1 from Sphere and +1 from Thalia using 2 different colour sources. Now you have an EE with Sunburst = 2 that answers both Sphere and Thalia thus "avoiding" the tax".

Also, I like Engineered Explosives against a field but at the same it can be ridiculously clunky against DNT with their mana disruption and sometimes you run the risk of it getting Revoked while it's on the stack.

So I wanted to mention the card, Volt Charge. It does hilarious things to Vial and it also kills stuff. It's also 3 mana, which isn't likely to get called.

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Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda

So I wanted to mention the card, Volt Charge. It does hilarious things to Vial and it also kills stuff. It's also 3 mana, which isn't likely to get called.

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That card is just.... not very good. 3 mana for 3 damage is a very low rate, doesn't actually kill vial and let's them continue with some shenanigans using flickerwisp or something. It's a cute card, but definitely not something worth testing. Each other red card suggested here is much better.

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

That card is just.... not very good. 3 mana for 3 damage is a very low rate, doesn't actually kill vial and let's them continue with some shenanigans using flickerwisp or something. It's a cute card, but definitely not something worth testing. Each other red card suggested here is much better.

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Oh, I know. It is horrible as a card, I just wanted to mention it as a way of thinking of ways around Vial other than the normal "Kill stuff" method. I'm a big fan of thinking outside the box, and it would be cool to inspire people with more knowledge to come up with a creative solution. The mechanic Proliferate works really well against vial, so I figured it was worth mentioning.

ETB choose a number is not an ability?

As, not when. It's not an ETB effect.

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Originally Posted by hyp3r1on

As Min referenced - I've been playing with Kozilek's Return in the sideboard since GP Columbus and I've been a big fan of it. It can be such a blowout versus Mom decks and stuff like Elves, Grixis etc. I've just liked it a lot more than Staticaster at the moment especially with most Grixis players not willing to shave bolts versus Miracles postboard.
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I have played the Izzet machinegun in my board consistently for a long time, but I can see Kozilek's Return being better in a number of situations. They are both CMC=3, instant speed mini-sweepers. Lets do a pros for each card:

Izzet Staticaster
a) Reuseable
b) Pitches to force
c) Does (typically) not hit our own stuff
d) Can not be locked out by the new dreaded CotV on legs
e) Immune to non-creature tax effects like Thalia 1.0
f) Blocks if things are desperate
g) Immune to Duress (rather marginal)

Kozilek's Return
1) Deals two points of damage (but still doesn't kill our Mentor, though monk tokens are likely to die) (Kills: Flipped Delver, Stoneforge, Thalia 2.0, Nettle Sentinel, Deathrite, Mirran Crusader [which will likely not see play anymore], Mishra's Factory, Swiftspear, Goblin Guide, Nimble Mongoose@1/1, Shardless Agent)
2) Gets around protection from red
3) Can get flashback with Snapcaster. This is not always great value, but I'm guessing it will often be worth it
4) Does not "die" to Bolt etc.
5) Immune to Revoker etc.
6) Immune to Red Blast

Versus storm combo I prefer the Statiscaster, but vs. everything else Kozilek's Return seems better. It's nice that ISC is a solution to Xantid Swarm as well as Empty the Warrens, and pitches to force. This let's me cut creature removal more aggressively vs. storm.

OTOH I have been staring at Deathrites (out of Elves) with ISC many times, which is frustrating. This list of creatures that the additional point of damage kills is pretty significant, but I'm not sure the card should be brought in vs. all decks that feature those creatures. I'm especially thinking about Shardless Agent.
Also, I'm wondering if it makes sense to bring in either of these cards vs. Delver decks? ISC seems pretty good vs Young Pyromancer, but apart from Grixis I'm not convinced either card makes the cut. I'd be interested in hearing some thoughts on that?

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Originally Posted by Lormador

My beef with this thread, and the reason it has a reputation for toxicity, is that every time a (possibly new) player comes here with an idea or a question there's always someone whose response is purely negative. Minniehajj, I respect a lot of your ideas and I have sleeved up your list in the past, but in this case you provided absolutely no help or new information. The quality of that particular post was pretty low, and you're capable of real contributions. However, you're far from alone. Practically every page of this thread has a post like that on it, and your post is more an example of how a well-meaning player can get drawn into the negativity of this thread than anything else.

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If the point of your post was the notion that every idea given here by a (possibly) new player merits discussion, then you are very wrong. The quality of this thread significantly deteriorated lately mostly becasue pages are cluttered with discussion of cards like Stifle or Volt Charge. Minniehajj was absolutely right when he dismissed these "ideas" outright and pointed the newcomer to Starcitygames guide.

I think that I can speak for a lot of people, that we expect certain quality of posts made on the Source, in the sense that this is the place for more advanced strategy and questions. There are literally dozens of beginner Miracles guides all over the Internet and most beginner questions can be answered by proxying the standard decklist and playing 200 games with it. Afterwards more advanced question arise, and here is the place to discuss them.

Basically, my point is that by insisting on being "helpful" to a single beginner, you are making this thread objectively worse for all the others.

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Originally Posted by Claw_Outcast

If the point of your post was the notion that every idea given here by a (possibly) new player merits discussion, then you are very wrong. The quality of this thread significantly deteriorated lately mostly becasue pages are cluttered with discussion of cards like Stifle or Volt Charge. Minniehajj was absolutely right when he dismissed these "ideas" outright and pointed the newcomer to Starcitygames guide.

I think that I can speak for a lot of people, that we expect certain quality of posts made on the Source, in the sense that this is the place for more advanced strategy and questions. There are literally dozens of beginner Miracles guides all over the Internet and most beginner questions can be answered by proxying the standard decklist and playing 200 games with it. Afterwards more advanced question arise, and here is the place to discuss them.

Basically, my point is that by insisting on being "helpful" to a single beginner, you are making this thread objectively worse for all the others.

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This addresses what I consider to be an underlying issue with this thread as a whole and something I'm in the process of alleviating with Dragonslayer_90's excellent help.

The primer at the beginning of this thread is woefully out of date and doesn't give an accurate and good introduction to miracles as it is today. When people ask questions that seem to have simple answers, such as stifle and volt charge, we should be able to point to an FAQ section on why these cards and their ilk just aren't playable.

I'm in the process of finishing the work of Dragonslayer_90 and rewriting a miracles primer to post here on the source, hopefully revitalizing the Miracles thread while also answering these questions for newcomers, using a lot of the ideas and articles written by Einherjar and others. I will not be biased towards any variants and will include the strengths and weaknesses of both. I haven't had as much time to write as I would like in the past, but expect it within a month or so. I've already had the go ahead from Dice_Box to submit the new primer and I think this will help a lot of the issues that this thread has, and will, ideally, go a long way in revitalizing the thread.

I've made it my personal mission earlier last year to produce quality posts and answer questions in a quality manner here on the Source in an attempt to revitalize what used to be THE place to discuss Miracles and that just hasn't been the case, but I hope this rewriting of the primer will assist in that.

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Originally Posted by Claw_Outcast

Basically, my point is that by insisting on being "helpful" to a single beginner, you are making this thread objectively worse for all the others.

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At the risk of putting words in Lormador's mouth, it's not that every idea merits discussion, especially if it's an old one and nothing has changed to merit a fresh look. He's talking about the toxicity, the elitism, the negativity. If you honestly don't see it, I'd have to wonder if you're incapable of empathy. If you do see it, the next question is whether or not you think it's a good thing.

The best communities always welcome beginners, despite their repeating the same questions over and over again. Welcoming to new people, even if they're annoying or if they occasionally derail high-end discussion, is the best way a group can prevent itself from dying out as existing members inevitably stop contributing.

It's important to be helpful, but it's fine to concentrate on helping those who will help themselves. I'd argue that Minniehajj did a great thing by pointing to existing resources. Having a "FAQ" like SCG articles, http://www.theepicstorm.com/, or http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/ is great because you can point beginners to existing, relevant content rather than having to type out the same thing over and over again.

Anyway, 2c. Keep up the good work, folks.

As one of the "Beginners" of Miracles, I'm more happy if someone tells me that an idea I have is just bad and won't work and then say why, than if someone just says I'm bad and shouldn't be playing. It's what stopped me from improving earlier in the year. But there is a huge vat of knowledge here and the information in this thread is extremely valuable. It should definitely be shared with everyone.

As for the Miracles discussion, I have the ability to get my hands on a single Engineered Explosives. Is it worth it to get a single copy, or is 2 the optimal number?

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Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda

As one of the "Beginners" of Miracles, I'm more happy if someone tells me that an idea I have is just bad and won't work and then say why, than if someone just says I'm bad and shouldn't be playing. It's what stopped me from improving earlier in the year. But there is a huge vat of knowledge here and the information in this thread is extremely valuable. It should definitely be shared with everyone.

As for the Miracles discussion, I have the ability to get my hands on a single Engineered Explosives. Is it worth it to get a single copy, or is 2 the optimal number?

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The thing that the other users are saying is that all of these cards that are being suggested, like stifle, RIP/helm, volt charge, etc, is that all of this stuff and how things evolved away from them are simple philosophies that are described earlier in this thread and the timeline of the evolution of miracles.

The issue is that the new players repeat the same questions that were asked years ago and the veterans don't have the patience to say why they're wrong.

People will say that the deck shouldn't play narrow cards because they're just bad, and should stick to the more streamlined elements while others (tend to be newer) players will say that well people should try it out first before dismissing it.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle I think. Try narrow cards, test them, but make sure the power level aligns with the rest of the deck.

I think that positive threads are those which give their members what they want, be they new or experienced. The reason we all come here is that a lot of other Miracles players read this thread. It's clearly the premier Miracles forum on the Internet. The reality is that new players are going to come in here all the time, read the primer, occasionally find it wanting and post various things. This may or may not occur in the middle of pretty technical discussion of particular plays. But since we have a reply function and apparently endless space, I don't see how this is a problem.

@Claw_Outcast, if an idea does not, in your opinion, merit discussion, you are free not to discuss it. If the idea is that there's a standard of thread quality that (potentially newer) players violate by posting (potentially dubious) suggestions, I don't buy it because this is, after all, a public forum. I would further argue that a 5 page wild goose chase devoted to a patently absurd card has considerable value. The original poster of the idea would surely have learned a great deal, and if the other participants weren't gaining something in the discussion, why would they take time out of their day to conduct it?

The alternative to being welcoming and treating even silly ideas with respect is for everyone to privately police the thread by shooting down ideas that they don't happen to agree with. Isn't the problem with that pretty obvious?

@King, I think 1 E.E. is a great asset to the deck even if you can't tutor for it. It's MD playable, and has been a staple in UW control for a very long time. There are only three problems with the card, the fact that it's pretty sluggish most of the time, the fact that it's vulnerable to Decay if you need to pass the turn with counters on it, and that it's stopped by Null Rod. It probably is better in the MD than in the board (since the Null Rod problem doesn't exist for G1). Two copies might certainly be valid also, and the fact that very experienced players attest to the value of 2 EE suggests that this works pretty well.

I personally play 1 copy MD, but I can tutor for it also because I play a silly enchantment build. I have no shame at all. I'm not even above testing a few games with an Esper build for Dreads and Plagues, but that's because my meta is saturated with DnT in a way that's very hard to overemphasize.

@ozimek, you sold me. I clearly need some Kozilek's Returns in my extended collection of Miracles cards. I very often play versions of the deck that will never suffer friendly fire from them. I am also going to pick up some Sudden Shocks. If the argument is that it costs red mana, well, basic mountains are available, and I'm looking for that anyway to be able to reliably cast Wear, right? I also see splash value against Infect and Delver, though Kozilek's Return boasts similar splash value.

Hi everyone,

I am trying to build Miracles deck, since I like control and Angels, haha... Anyway here is my first attempt at it. I know I am running some budget lands like Steam Vents and Hallowed Fountain, but overall I am trying my best to get the deck built to play at my LGS. Here is the general meta at my LGS:

Miracles
Death & Taxes
Burn
Delver (Grixis & Rug & Blue Red)
Lands
Eldrazi
Either some form of combo (Oops All spells, Manaless Dredge, etc)
Occasionally High Tide, Merfolk, and Doomsday
Jund

Here is my deck list:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/miracles-v10/

I would appreciate any advice or help you all provide. I can't wait to get my deck built to play. I used to loathe miracles as a delver player, but after seeing Edwin Pena's deck list that only used basics, it caught my interest as someone who is trying to go to a cheaper deck, but one that is still competitive. I only play once a month for paper and then rely on xMage for practicing and play testing.

Here is Edwin Pena's deck list if you are interested:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/452595#paper

I have obviously heavily modified my version, but I think it's more suitable for where I play.

Thank you in advance for your help.

- Technofox


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