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Has anyone else tried taking the deck in a more controling direction?
4 Brainstrom
3 Ponder
3 JACE
4 FoW
3 Daze
3 Snare
3 Thoughtseize
4 Ghastly Demise/Smother
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Goyf
2 Tombstalker
2 Clique
22 Land : 3 Wastes, 4 basics
SB Options
Extirpate
Grip
Plague
Removal
By removing all the tempo generators, you've just turned the deck into bad Landstill without Landstill.
That is sooooooooooooo true!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
True, except that playing standstill in control is just wrong when Merfok is a dominant force.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
It just seems that this control deck has a better percentage against the current metagame then traditional Team America, which struggles against Merfolk in particulair. Snare, Deed, Extirpate are very strong right now - more so then the tempo alternatives in Team America.
So I recently decided that I was going to start playing legacy after one of my friends convinced my to actually play a few games and I have to admit, despite my close-mindedness I really like the format. So after reading up I think I want to try Team America out via borrowing some cards, my main question is: what do the deck's matchups look like?
You have 53 pages of skimming ahead of you, better start now!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyselm
But yeah, really, read the thread :)
Quick roundup:
The more reliant a deck is on particular interactions, the BETTER team america will be against it.
Merfolk and Zoo are probably the hardest matchups out of popular decks because they have so much redundancy and interchangable threats, so it is easy to have the wrong answer for their threats and difficult to disrupt them. They put TA in the control role rather than the disruption role and that is not the position the deck wants to be in. Merfolk is worse than Zoo IMO, but still beatable. BUG landstill is also tough just because of the amount of removal they run (innocent blood is really good), but other control decks can be easy if they run a lot of expensive spells.
Any deck centering around particular combinations like combo decks, counterbalance, vengevine/survival, stax, goblins, lands, I would say all those are favorable to varying extents. The GW survival list is tougher than the U/G because it can function more like a better beatdown deck after you disrupt their survival plan.
Of course these matchups can be shored up with the SB slots.
This list has been performing well at various tournaments, including a top 8 finish in a large Japanese tournament.
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Tombstalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Snuff Out
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Smother
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Pernicious Deed
It has a lot of heavy disruption, but has late game capabilities thanks to Jace and Deed. In testing, it still seems to struggle against fast aggro like Zoo, but I think that matchup could be improved with some tweaks.
I'm thinking of sleeving up Team America again. I've been playing UGB Thresh for a while now but quickly realized that Nimble Mongoose and Dark Confidant aren't very good at blocking Vengevines. On the other hand, Tombstalker eats Vengevines for breakfast.
However, while I love Hymn, it seems like it would be bad against Survival decks so I'll probably run the following modified list:
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Snuff Out
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Jace TMS
2 Maelstrom Pulse
My suggested build:
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendillion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Snuff Out
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trygon predator
2 Umezawa's jitte
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Divert
Jitte in the board addresses aggro matchups better than trying to 1-for-1 with black removal. 12 creatures + 8 cantrips means it shouldn't be too hard to get online. It is admittedly slow, but Team America packs enough disruption to get you to that point.
Jace is questionable, since too often he's just a 'win more' card. But he's a great top deck later in the game, and can be shuffled back with brainstorm early on.
Divert is great against opposing discard, burn, removal, and counterspells. It's a very flexible card in my opinion.
4 crypt may be overkill, but I hate losing to dredge.
@ wcm8:
I would definitely play Hymn instead of Sinkhole and possibly Go for the Throat instead of Snuff Out (though that is something that needs to thoroughly tested, Snuff Out is a solid card). Pithing Needle should also be considered in the board, imo.
The reason you want to run hymns over sinkhole is that sinkhole only helps you if you are already winning.
Hymn will not only do that, but helps you come back from behind.
Who cares if the have 2 lands if they have no cards in hand, yadig?
@wcm8
Nice build. I have some comments for you, keeping in mind that you should expect to face a fair share of aggro in a normal meta.
1) I would consider running a 4th removal spell over the 1x Jace. Chance of you drawing the Jace is extremely low, and in fact I would try a 2x Snuff Out / 2x Go for the Throat split.
2) Try Spell Snare over Sinkhole? Is blue and lowers your curve. Aggro doesn't care if you nuke one of their lands on turn 2.
3) I would run Dispel over Divert, but that's a matter of personal preference.
4) Mana base - I would suggest trying 3x Bayou, 1x Swamp instead of 1x Bayou, 1x Trop, 1x Swamp. You can cut a fetchland.
5) Have you considered Engineered Explosives instead of Jitte in the board for mass removal? That's also a way to kill enchantments/artifacts that slip past your counter suite.
My modified version of your build:
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendillion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Snuff Out
2 Go for the Throat
4 Spell Snare
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
1 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trygon predator
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Dispel
Think of sinkhole as a precision sniper rifle and hymn to tourach being a sawed off shotgun. With sinkhole and the other land destruction spells, you can cut your opponents off their key colors long enough to get there with your fatties. Counters are there for cards that slip through the cracks. I'd rather have an opponent have a full hand they can't do anything with than allow them to ramp into end game spells -- if you get to that point, TA is going to lose anyways. Sinkhole keeps you functioning as the beatdown.
In matchups where it isn't helpful (aether vial.deck) it's usually the first card to get cut, especially on the draw. We need to think of a deck as being 75 cards, not the best 60 + 15 narrow answers.
Jitte + 8 evasive beaters can get there vs merefolk. As long as you kill their lords, your creatures are much much better.
Fair enough. Plus there's always the "oh shit" factor when they realize their BASIC LANDS AREN'T SAFE.
Another sideboard option to consider is Pithing Needle to shut off Vial.
Are you planning to take TA to a tournament/event soon?
I'm not sure if it's right for my local meta-game (too much random aggro, hardly any combo), but at a larger tournament I think TA could do really well. I will probably take some variant to a SCG Open or Grand Prixs this year. I have been testing my list on Cockatrice, and it has been doing pretty well. I beat Merfolk pretty easily with this configuration.
Land destruction is very underrated. It can have just as much 'oops, I win' factor as a turn 2 Dreadnought. Along with counterspell backup, you can really punish opponents who keep a risky opening hand.
Divert is definitely a flex slot in the sideboard, I am not completely sold on it. It is absolutely brutal if you can redirect a Hymn to Tourach back at your opponent, but sometimes in the late game they might have the two extra to pay for a StP. I'll continue testing with it, but I think you definitely want something in the sideboard to help address sligh/burn without being too narrow.
Edit: even with the trygons, I think Krosan Grips should still be in the sideboard. There are various artifacts and creatures that really suck to have land vs you (eg: ensnaring bridge, humility). Maybe I'd cut a crypt and something else for 1/2 of them.
As far as Sinkhole vs Hymn goes, I think it's best to say it is a metagame choice.
Sinkhole is probably better in underdeveloped metas, whereas hymn works better in metas with more non-basic lands.
That having been said, I probably would NOT play this deck in an underdeveloped meta, OR where there is a lot of Rock or Dragon Stompy.
I still stand by my reasoning that hymn is an overall better call than sinkhole, just due to how legacy works in general.
Against decks like Zoo and Goblins, which run many, many lands - sinkhole is the wrong call. You will not be able to overcome their threat/card advantage engines by one-for-one'ing them. Yes, it may keep your dazes relevant, however any good pilot will play into them to set you back a turn on tempo. By and large, their red cards will trump your black ones, and over time this becomes largely problematic.
Against blue decks with daze and force: A turn 2 hymn is probably your strongest play here. The following will occur:
They force your hymn - result: that's awesome! They are down a counterspell, 2 cards, and life!
They daze your hymn - result: that's awesome! They are down a card, and on tempo, because they have returned a land to their hand.
The Spell Snare your hymn - result: OKish. One for one trade. Make sure you don't lose on tempo here.
Hymn Resolves - result: that's awesome! You are probably going to win.
Sinkhole is ALWAYS a one for one - unless its Force of willed. Thats really bad for you, cause if you tapped out to play that card you can be sure you will go behind on tempo. A reminder that this deck is not Tempo Thresh - tapping out is how you will win most of your games. ALA Turn 1 stifle, turn 2 hymn, turn 3 goyf with force/daze backup, and hopefully you just landed your wasteland.
Sinkhole provides virtual card advantage by mana screwing your opponent. It also has more of an effect on the board state later in the game, being able to remove man lands, mazes, or other utility lands, whereas Hymn is dead when your opponent is topdecking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scordata
There are good arguments for playing either card.
I was brainstorming in Archeology class about a Team America/Dreadstill/Dark Tempo Thresh hybrid. I haven't really tried it out much, but I was just thinking of a few things:
-We run Stifle, why not add a Trickbind and run some Dreadnoughts, too?
-Dark Confidant is becoming my favourite creature evar, why not play him (besides flipping a Tombstalker)?
So, I quickly put this together during the midterm:
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Clique/Tombstalker/Bitterblossom/Something
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
2 Top/Ponder/Preordain
3 Thoughtseize/More Counters/EE/Open/Ghastly Demise/Etc.
Basically, you run the same suite of awesome counters and tempo, but you also run a bit more card advantage (Bob). Bob is crazy good, but again, I'm not sure if this is the thread or not. Here, you can decide to control a bit more until you drop Goyf betas, or you can go all-in on a 12/12 on turn 2. I guess this means you have to use your Stifles slightly more sparingly, or not, because you still have Goyfs and other creatures on the attack as well.
Let me know what you think of the basic idea.
-Matt
Dreadnought is too conditional for a deck like this. It is a card that requires a deck to be built around it. Dreadstill achieves this by having a tutor (trinket mage), card advantage (standstill), and protection (counterbalance, other counterspells).
Team America does not want a conditional beater with built in card-disadvantage. If there was a significantly good U/B/G creature for 2-3 mana that fit in with the deck's goals of disruption + fast beats, then I'm sure it would find its way in. As it stands, no other creatures in those colors match the power-to-casting-cost efficiency of Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf.
The deck you are suggesting has been built before, it's called "Dreadstalker". But I don't think it is as good/consistent as a more stock Team America build.