If you Dread Return Reveillark and sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy, you can get back two Trolls.
And yes, it works.
I'm pretty sure it's a wasted slot. Instead of trying to dredge the Reveillark, you can just Dread Return the first Troll.
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If you Dread Return Reveillark and sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy, you can get back two Trolls.
And yes, it works.
I'm pretty sure it's a wasted slot. Instead of trying to dredge the Reveillark, you can just Dread Return the first Troll.
Yeah, and 2 StP/PtE still take care of them. Iona on white wins in three turns ond most decks can hardly do anything about it.
I tested Lark loosely after seeing your list and it kinda felt like winmore.
If you are getting your Dread Return targets removed by Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile, you are doing it wrong. Regardless of what the target is.Quote:
Originally Posted by paK0
Honestly, the best thing Iona does is fly.
Without Therapy you can't really do anything about it, can ya?
Most of the time DR is gg, i could target Eager Cadet and still win with the Tokens. However the question I'm asking is: What creatures wins games that others don't.
Play both ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
ancestor's chosenQuote:
Originally Posted by paK0
What Dread Return targets lose you games because they are blanks?Quote:
Originally Posted by paK0
I only play three Ichorids. Even if I wanted to play five, your latest list shows a split in favor of Bloodghasts; why? And is it worth not maxing out on Tireless Tribe? Further, how often do you want to kill yourself because you can't activate your Cephalid Coliseum?Quote:
Play both ...
re: DDD vs Tarmogoyf: The loosest parts of DDD is bricking on more dredgers and how hard it can be to race a Tarmogoyf. It depends on how their lists are constructed, too; a UGW list that can Plow your Narcomoeba is a little harder to chump against than a list that has Bolt to clear out blockers. If you are just straight dredging from seven and if they play Tarmogoyf, you have to dredge into Narcomoeba by your fourth dredge. Alternatively, you can hit Ichorid + black creature + Bridge by your third dredge. When you do hit Narcomoeba, they can't have a spare counter or Stifle for it, and they can't have a second Tarmogoyf.
That's actually all reasonably low percentage. I think postboard you want to aggressively play outlets because you don't want to give them time to cantrip into hate and you want to be poised to kill them as quickly as possible after you get Crypted, but in game one you can take your time.
So it's a function of how many counters you can beat as opposed to how many games they will play Tarmogoyf and you will lose to it. I think you're probably more likely to beat Tarmogoyf + two counters + Plow on the DDD plan than you are to just beat three counters, although it's close. I think either plan beats one or two counters with no Goyf pretty easily. I dunno what the math is, but it's probably reasonable. Further, if you slam into double Force with Imp and Study and just stone never draw another outlet, you are completely kold. The Wasteland decks might also be able to make their Dazes live.
Choosing to draw is loose; there are nonblue decks that you actively want to be racing, and it tips control decks off that a hand of Ponder, Stifle, Plow, land, land, Top, Tarmogoyf is actually seven blanks, but I think if you find yourself on the draw and have seven cards and your opponent leads Island go, you probably just ship your dredger and pass.
I'm currently running a version with 1 FKZ and 2 SPhinx MD to seal the deal G1 asap, but I don't know which DR targets to play in my SB.
Currently I play Iona and Woodfall Primus. Any other good targets? Ancestor's Chosen? Sadistic Hypnotist?
what do you expect to face?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
Well, thats the interesting part of it - I don't really have much information as it will be the first Legacy Tournament here in my city. I only know there will be 1 B/W-Aggro-Something, 1 G/R Goblins and 1 Team America.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
I expect about 3 CounterTop and a good chunk of Zoo... from what I've heard most people coming play simple things like beatface.dec, competitive, never the less. Sligh, Zoo, you name it.
Sure. I don't cast Dread Return without Therapy. It's highly unlikely to hit a 2 or a 3 of (Dread Return) and a 1 or a 2 of (Dread Return man) and not get access to a 4 of.Quote:
Originally Posted by paK0
I'm pretty sure maindeck Dread Return targets are cute, not good. Sure, you can be clever by running these guys, but they're just blanks. I find it highly unlikely game 1 that you can Dredge into Dread Return + 3 guys and not win. If you're having trouble winning in that situation, you probably need to switch decks. Because the metagame has adapted. If you want to win, I think you'll find dedicated Dread Return targets in the main are cute, win-more and more clever than good. Post-board, the only ones I find interesting are Ancestor's Chosen and maybe FKZ for the combo matchup, although I'm interested in seeing if AC fulfills the necessary role there.
Sideboard space is at a serious premium with this deck. I sincerely doubt you can afford the slots for maybe a 1% advantage.
A quick question: Why would you want to play FKZ over Hypnotist in the combo matchup? I mean, both pretty much seal the deal, right? But I can't think of any other matchup where FKZ would be better than hypno... I mean, he could even be boarded against something like... Landstill.
And nuking away their hand seems easier than assembling enough dudes for the final rush.
Sadistic Hypnotist doesn't beat the "Topdeck/Mystical Tutor for Ad Nauseam" plan. Iona might even be better than Hypnotist there because you can name black and they have to bounce it. It's unclear.
For game 2 and or 3 where the opponent has boarded crypt. With a list that has no dread return targets except for troll, and have tireless tribe MD, and 2 Dread Returns MD. What's the more reasonable slot to cut to board in the ancient grudges?
The tribes? The Careful Study? The Breakthrough?
I've usually been taking out the tribes, but from the conversation here, seems like some people value them over the draws.
Running less than 4 Ichorid and 4 Bloodghasts is really, really bad, because games 2 and 3 are defined by grinding thru' Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus - in which case you need every threat.
Tarmogoyf does not consistently race DDD, if you're playing Bloodghast and you're playing 4 Undiscovered Paradise and 4 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds you'll easily recur enough threats to keep up the pace.
Cephalid Coliseum is debatable, because right now I'm convinced Bloodghasts and Oboros both speed up the deck and fight thru' the hate, where Cephalid Coliseum only accelerates your dredging under ideal situations.
Also, I'm not convinced more outlets > more dredgers necessarily, I've tried boarding in or MDing 4 Shambling Shells and just concentrating on DDD with Breakthrough, Careful Study and Brainstorm with interesting results.
So how do you find room for 4 Ichorid and 4 Bloodghast in your list? I can definitely see that this setup is a very strong one postboard against graveyard removal. However I am still convinced that Bloodghast is quite weak in comparison to Ichorid. He doesn't die at the end of turn but this seems to be rather bad in this case because he can't provide you with a critical mass of tokens in case of a stall on the board. And not having haste unless your opponent's life total is less than half also doesn't make him better, not speaking of 3/1 being better than 2/1. Nevertheless it sounds really strong to have 4-offs of Bloodghast and Ichorid in the deck as both together also makes DDD insanely strong because you get another 4 threats you can dredge in addition to Ichorid and Narcomoeba.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Cut Dread Return targets and cut lands, the problem the other lists have is they're playing too many cards they don't need to play in order to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muradin
Start here,
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Oboro, Palace in the Cloud
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Dakmor Salvage
I fiddle with the ratio of Oboro to Coliseum a lot, I just can't put in the volume to come to any conclusion (tho' I think SBing Oboros might be really smart.)
Bloodghast is rarely blocked, so he's free damage. He's good when you were even or winning in this respect. If you need to quickly catchup on the board, he's really not very hot. Sac outlets are quite necessary with him. I desperately wish Bloodghast could block. More than once I've been forced to DBlast him for Bridgesex.
My largest problem with bloodghast is the required changes in the mana-base. As for Oboro, I really don't care for its legendary status. 2 seems safer. I do prefer running Oboro to Dakmor though. I only run 1 Dakmore just in the case I'm missing the self-bouncing land and I've got a GY chuck full of the BGs. If you dump your library, a single land trigger is usually all you'll need to finish the combo.
Currently testing:
// Lands -- 14
4 [OV] City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine or CC
4 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
2 [SOK] Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage
// Draw and Discard -- 14
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
2 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [OD] Careful Study
// Dredgers -- 14
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
2 [RAV] Darkblast
// GY-Goodies -- 18
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
The deck is noticeably less explosive. I don't have a problem with this, but others might. It plays out differently. If you go the Bloodghast route, you are going for the full slow-roller build. The nice part is that recursion is likely to occur, to some degree, even with minimal GYs. I think Bloodghast, at 4x, comes at the cost of Narco's. I take the math on dredgers pretty seriously, and I'm not going to be cutting below 13 (and if I can help it, 14).
peace,
4eak
Having 4xOboro, Palace in the Clouds in game 2 is huge vs Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus tho'; if you're not MDing them, then you should be SBing them because Oboro is the card that helps you win small by recurring your threats and activating Crypt/Relic.
IMO, 4 Undiscovered Paradise, 1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds and 2 Dakmor Salvage is probably optimal in your MD, that gives you 3 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds to SB in game 2 and you can MD your Cephalid Coliseums game 1 to win big instead of winning small.
2 Dakmor Salvage is solid, producing black for Putrid Imp, adding the extra Dredge to your Careful Study, Breakthrough or Cephalid Coliseum and letting you ramp up to 2 mana for hard casting creatures makes it a versatile card (besides obviously triggering Bloodghasts).
current list:
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
2 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage
// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
2 [OD] Tireless Tribe
// Spells
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 4 [MM] Unmask
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
Other version is to cut 1 Ichorid and 1 Careful Study, then maindecking a Sphinx and an Iona, cutting the DR targets from the board, replacing them with Wispmare/Chain of Vapor/Firestorm/other targets like Ancestor's Chosen.
What do you think about Null Rod? It has to show up in your hand and costs 2, but kills every Crypt and Relic.