[Deck] Grixis Tempo

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Originally Posted by Miscanthus

Question for the experienced Grixis Delver players out there:
In general, how does this deck typically fare in an Eldrazi heavy meta?
Is the matchup approximately even? In their favor? In our favor?

I'm normally a storm player, but looking for an alternate (and different style/approach) deck during times of hostile metas, and/or when I become too well-known at my local LGS, etc.

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Personally I find the Eldrazi matchup to be pretty heavily favoured for Grixis. (My spreadsheet says I have won 78% of my matches over the last 3 months vs Eldrazi with Grixis in mtgo leagues). All of Grixis' threats line up well against what Eldrazi is trying to accomplish, meaning you can ignore everything aside from reality smasher with young pyromancer, true-name nemesis and gurmag angler. Whilst you are defending on the ground with these, you should be chipping in with drs/delver.

The early disruption of daze/force/bolt/wasteland to stymie their mana, along with a quick clock means it's often easy to prevent them from sticking threats until you are well ahead in the damage race.

I tend to be more positive than most when discussing this matchup, so it may have something to do with my sideboard - I bring in 2 decay, 1 grudge, 2 needle, 2 strix and cut all the probes and therapies and the spell pierce. Most lists aren't running decays at the moment, but I find it helps with chalice/jitte/ratchet bomb/baby eldrazis (though obviously, it's especially important for chalice).

Are you on the standard 3 Volc, 2 Sea, 1 Trop, though? Eldrazi runs Wastes and losing access to green for the Abrupt Decays seems dangerous. Obviously you wouldn't go blindly fetching without the need, but has that been an issue?

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Originally Posted by revenantkioku

Are you on the standard 3 Volc, 2 Sea, 1 Trop, though? Eldrazi runs Wastes and losing access to green for the Abrupt Decays seems dangerous. Obviously you wouldn't go blindly fetching without the need, but has that been an issue?

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For sure, this comes up - more often than not though, you're the one pressuring their manabase. They often need their wastelands to cast their spells through your daze/wasteland plan. Also, you should really only fetch the trop when you need it - and as you're only playing 3 green cards (2x decay, 1x grudge), if it gets wasted the damage tends to be minimal. In addition to this, you're playing a 4 drs deck and the Eldrazi player needs to save their removal for the more important creatures in the match up (young pyromancer and gurmag angler) so you often can rely on deathrite for green.

hi guys!

I recall a rumor that Fire Covenant is somehow broken on mtgo, but couldn't find anything with google. Does anybody know if that's still the case? It wouldn't surprise me given that they still weren't able to fix ponder...

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

hi guys!

I recall a rumor that Fire Covenant is somehow broken on mtgo, but couldn't find anything with google. Does anybody know if that's still the case? It wouldn't surprise me given that they still weren't able to fix ponder...

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I've played with it a week or so ago and it was fine.

Wondering how you guys board against Shardless Bug and Infect? I've seen the opening post regarding Shardless, but I dont really agree with it. Assuming the deck below, how would you board against those two decks? Thanks.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21763&iddeck=167304

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Originally Posted by kabal

Wondering how you guys board against Shardless Bug and Infect? I've seen the opening post regarding Shardless, but I dont really agree with it. Assuming the deck below, how would you board against those two decks? Thanks.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21763&iddeck=167304

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I would start by cutting all force of will for 2 strix 1 pyro and 1 therapy. The rest depends on what you expect from the shardless player. For instance, some people in my meta play jitte so i would board in decay/grudge as well.

Sent from my SM-J700M using Tapatalk

Hi all.

I recently wrote an article discussing Grixis Delver, its matchups, and the MTGO Legacy metagame.

All feedback is welcome, please let me know what you think! I hope this information is useful.

Thanks.

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...grixis-delver/

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Originally Posted by FGCmtg

Hi all.

I recently wrote an article discussing Grixis Delver, its matchups, and the MTGO Legacy metagame.

All feedback is welcome, please let me know what you think! I hope this information is useful.

Thanks.

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...grixis-delver/

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I would say the most useful information in articles like this are the ones that explain what goes out and what comes in. Gives reasons why the decisions were made.

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Originally Posted by kabal

I would say the most useful information in articles like this are the ones that explain what goes out and what comes in. Gives reasons why the decisions were made.

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There have been a million and one Side boarding guides written and a large part of how they work is different person to person.
I think this article is useful as a way of using MTGO to get you to play better if you have a plan on how to use all the data and options available to you, rather than a prescriptive 'do this and do that'

Sib

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Originally Posted by kabal

I would say the most useful information in articles like this are the ones that explain what goes out and what comes in. Gives reasons why the decisions were made.

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As Sibelius has mentioned, this wasn't intended to be a guide on 'how to play Grixis' and more of a 'this is my experience with the deck and how I feel the matchups are'. I also included information on how I used MTGO to test the deck.

There are quite a few sideboarding guides for the deck around the web - and whilst yes, the sideboard certainly affects win %s, it should be reasonably obvious for the most part what comes in and out in what matchups.

Thank you for your feedback! If you're particularly interested in a certain matchup and how to sideboard, I can give you my thoughts on that.

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Originally Posted by FGCmtg

...Thank you for your feedback! If you're particularly interested in a certain matchup and how to sideboard, I can give you my thoughts on that.

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You guys must have superior googling skills than me, I have not found the many articles with guides you are referring too. Not ones written within last year.

Anyhow... Wondering how you guys board against Shardless Bug and Infect? I've seen the opening post regarding Shardless, but I dont really agree with it. Assuming the deck below, how would you board against those two decks? Thanks.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21763&iddeck=167304

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Originally Posted by kabal

You guys must have superior googling skills than me, I have not found the many articles with guides you are referring too. Not ones written within last year.

Anyhow... Wondering how you guys board against Shardless Bug and Infect? I've seen the opening post regarding Shardless, but I dont really agree with it. Assuming the deck below, how would you board against those two decks? Thanks.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21763&iddeck=167304

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Vs Shardless -

(Assuming on the play)

in 1 Pyroblast, 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Winter Orb, 1 Ancient Grudge

out 4 Force of Will, 1 Vendilion Clique

Is what I'd do at a first glance, Clique seems a little poor against Baleful Strix so I'd take that out, I would expect them to cut any planeswalkers post board as they are poor vs Young Pyromancer, and in the case of Jace, Pyroblast and Lightning Bolt. Pyroblast is useful for fighting AV, they need more mana to operate efficiently than you do so I'd bring in the Orb. Ancient Grudge is useful for clearing out their value creatures which allows you to get damage in. In addition to this, there is a reasonable chance that the Shardless player is running some number of Umezawa's Jitte, so this is a nice answer to that.

The other card I'm interested in here is Fire Covenant, which serves a similar purpose to Grudge in clearing out their smaller creatures - I would expect the Shardless player to cut their countermagic and so this is relatively safe. However, they can easily put you behind in the race with Goyf and Drs and so it can be risky.

On the draw post board I'd cut two Daze and bring in two Baleful Strix - it's a lot easier for them to stifle the aggro plan post board especially if they are on the play, which tends to make the game go longer, making Daze less useful. Strix is nice for dealing with Goyfs which are sometimes too large for Dismember and Angler to fight against.

Vs Infect -

This matchup depends a lot on how your opponent plays. Are they trying to aggressively combo you out or are they a more conservative player? In the case of the more conservative player, I like bringing in the extra therapy to try and shred their hand whilst they are waiting for the opportune moment to go for the combo with protection - here I would take out Daze. Against a more aggressive player, you tend to be safer just trying to kill all their guys and overloading on removal and taking out Therapies completely as they will often be too slow.

In general I like cutting the slower threats - so -2 Angler, -1 Young Pyromancer, -1 Clique. You can easily finish them off with Shaman and Delver for the most part. Clique is better vs the more conservative player.

And loading up on answers. Pyroblast is a nice counter to Brainstorm (obvious but I thought I'd mention that) and Blighted Agent. Flusterstorm is good to have early for cantrips and later if they try to kill you with something like Become Immense.

Pithing Needle and Ancient Grudge are good answers to Inkmoth Nexus, with Needle being very effective if you find it as they can't counter it with Vines/Flusterstorm.

Strix is a useful card in the matchup but you can't rely on it too heavily, you need to be wary of Beserk. Decay is also an option, but 2 mana is a real cost in this matchup and you can easily get blown out by Vines. Decay tends to be better against more aggressive players relying more on Force and Daze to push their combo through.

So yes, this one is tricky and sideboarding is situational, I don't really have a set plan.

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Originally Posted by FGCmtg

Vs Shardless -

(Assuming on the play)

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Thanks for the information. Some of the more insightful info in this entire thread.

Adding to FGCmtg's point, I like Strix regardless if on the play or on the draw. The other thing is that Strix helps you catch up from behind because of the actual card advantage it provides and the tempo advantage to boot.

There is also an arguement for Sulphric Vortex against Shardless as it does provide a reasonable clock demanding an Abrupt Decay and shutting off Deathrite's life gain ability. That said Vortex is really only good if you are ahead so play at your own risk.

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Originally Posted by kabal

Thanks for the information. Some of the more insightful info in this entire thread.

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I'll consider writing a follow up article detailing how I approach sideboarding for the popular matchups. Whilst there are 'sideboarding guides' on the internet, you are right, they are few and far between and not particularly informative.

Going off on a bit of a tangent, I feel like a more Delve focused version of Grixis Delver is better positioned in the current metagame that is stuffed with BUG decks. The bigger threats like Gurmag Angler and maybe even Tombstalker are very difficult for these decks to deal with.

I am going to try this list tonight

Land
2x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
1x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sorceries
4x Ponder

Instants
4x Stifle
2x Thought Scour
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
1x Dismember
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Pierce

Creatures
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Gurmag Angler
2x True-Name Nemesis
1x Tombstalker

Sideboard
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Baleful Strix
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Painful Truths
1x Pithing Needle
2x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Winter Orb
1x Submerge
1x Thoughtseize
1x Grafdigger's Cage

Thoughts on the list and my idea?

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Originally Posted by kabal

You guys must have superior googling skills than me, I have not found the many articles with guides you are referring too. Not ones written within last year.

Anyhow... Wondering how you guys board against Shardless Bug and Infect? I've seen the opening post regarding Shardless, but I dont really agree with it. Assuming the deck below, how would you board against those two decks? Thanks.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21763&iddeck=167304

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With that list i'd go:

In
1 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Winter Orb
1 Fire Covenant
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Baleful Strix

Out
4 Force of Will
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Spell Pierce

The scariest things shardless can have against you are sweepers, goyf, and strix (only goyf if you dont have angler or token army and only strix if you have only gurmag or delver).

You can actually grind them out with this approach.

We sideboard essentially into a more powerful midrange deck, and reduce the risk of drawing dead cabal therapies when we need to interact on the board. Fow is also bad. I wouldn't cut clique as it can pressure a liliana or jace. Most shardless players will leave a liliana or two because there are otherwise too few outs to angler. Fire covenant is amazing here, we are the ones pressuring their life total, and we need to clean up shamans strixes and goyfs. Pyroblast is mainly an out to ancestral but also deals with strix on the stack profitably. Dont play all of your creatures out unless you can burn them out after a toxic deluge, just play enough to pressure them through decay. You should be able to daze effectively unless they get more than 1 deathrite shaman. Be sure to kill shaman on sight btw. Gl

I could also see a case for a pure tempo approach (card advantage be damned if they are just dead)

In
1 Pyroblast
1 Winter Orb

Out
2 Cabal Therapy

Cabal is really more of a midrange card in this matchup. The case for leaving in forces is to counter their sweepers or trump cards.

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Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan

Going off on a bit of a tangent, I feel like a more Delve focused version of Grixis Delver is better positioned in the current metagame that is stuffed with BUG decks. The bigger threats like Gurmag Angler and maybe even Tombstalker are very difficult for these decks to deal with.

I am going to try this list tonight

List

Thoughts on the list and my idea?

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Update: Went 4-0 last night at FNM!

Quick Report

R1: 8Rack- Delver of Secrets is a good card. He did get my Tombstalker out of my hand both games though, and it was about to hit play in G2 before he Hymned it out of my hand.
2-0 (1-0 2-0)

R2: Sneak Fit- Game 1 I got to Stifle his first land then follow with Delver and cast Tombstalker on turn 4. Game 2 wasn't that exciting but I managed to win in convincing fashion.
2-0 (2-0 4-0)

R3: BR Reanimator- Game 1 he mulls to 5 and apparently keeps no lands and scrys to the top. He then reveals Chancellor of the Annex but does nothing and passes. From there I am able to just take over the game with Daze, Force and threats. Game 2 he unfortunately mulls to 5 again plays a land turn 1 and passes. I had kept double Wasteland, Force, Cage and a couple other cards. I played the Cage turn 1 and made sure that he could never hard cast any of his monsters.
2-0 (3-0 6-0)

R4: Shardless BUG- He mulls to 5 and I mull to 6 to start. I am able to win the Deathrite Shaman dance and land threats making sure that he doesn't get double black with Stifles and Wastelands. Game 2 I seem to be far ahead with 2 Deathrites and a Delver until he resolved a devastating Toxic Deluge and followed up with a Tarmogoyf to bash my head in for the victory. Now my dream is ruined the perfect 4-0 8-0 dream. To be fair I ruined that dream for him in game 1. Game 3 we only had 5 minutes left, so we had to play fast. Despite that I don't think that any of us made any notable mistakes. I got ahead quickly and was able to Stifle an Ancestral Vision (which felt amazing) and right after that he gets Shardless Agent to find another Ancestral. However I had already resolved a Gurmag Angler and a few more creatures to boot. He went for a Dismember dropping himself to 5 fearing Daze, thus leaving up a Wasteland and also leaving him dead to my Deathrite Shaman and my flipped Delver.
2-1 (4-0 8-1)

To wrap up, I did not miss Young Pyromancer at all, heck I didn't even think of the Pyromancer all night. Stifle felt great and the extra True-Name Nemesis and Delve threat felt like they gave the deck enough top end threats to really compete with the grindier midrange decks that are starting to see an uptick in the current Legacy metagame.

Thoughts? I would love to explore this variation of Grixis Delver in this thread.