[Deck] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

wat

Will watch replay when I get home

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I mean... at least we have a chance against those decks with sideboard cards and the super fast kills the deck can bring unopposed. Especially Rabblemaster, holy cow that is a hell of a clock.

I had no specific sideboard cards for Czech Pile and Sneak and Show/Reanimator are essentially unwinnable even with sideboard cards which is why I didn't bother putting a Stingscourger in my 75. Are there even specific sideboard cards we can play against the Czech Pile? lol

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

I mean... at least we have a chance against those decks with sideboard cards and the super fast kills the deck can bring unopposed. Especially Rabblemaster, holy cow that is a hell of a clock.

I had no specific sideboard cards for Czech Pile and Sneak and Show/Reanimator are essentially unwinnable even with sideboard cards which is why I didn't bother putting a Stingscourger in my 75. Are there even specific sideboard cards we can play against the Czech Pile? lol

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Maybe it’s just a well fought battle lol. I mean chirugeon helps against forked bolts/Bolt/k-command/Push. But in their defense, we have to sac goblins anyways so we are losing board state. Maybe an old build of “4 of every goblin” 4 piledriver and war marshal might be what they have a hard time with? Also if we sac the target of K-Command does the entire spell fizzle?

Against Czech Pile, Relic is very good.

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Also if we sac the target of K-Command does the entire spell fizzle?

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No, if one target is valid, the spell still resolves, but only one of the command will fizzle, see the fifth explanation on magiccards.info here

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

I mean... at least we have a chance against those decks with sideboard cards and the super fast kills the deck can bring unopposed. Especially Rabblemaster, holy cow that is a hell of a clock.

I had no specific sideboard cards for Czech Pile and Sneak and Show/Reanimator are essentially unwinnable even with sideboard cards which is why I didn't bother putting a Stingscourger in my 75. Are there even specific sideboard cards we can play against the Czech Pile? lol

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I disagree that S+S is unwinnable, at least for black versions of the deck. Granted we're always going to lose to their best hands, but most draws have a fair bit of play. Matchups like this are where having all 8 ports/wastes and a settler really shine. Show and Tell often spends it's first few turns "setting up" with it's 12-16 cantrips, giving us time to set up a lackey/vial and then go to town on their mana base. Additionally, they often can't win with Show and Tell itself, as many of the cards we can show beat their emrakul, (as long as our deck has weirding).

I guess the difference is that you're running a faster list with less late-game/control elements. I would love to play Czech Pile with my list, but I see why your faster version might struggle on the CA front.

I take what I perceive to be a realistic approach - "make a big boy" combo decks are a bad time for Goblins. It's unfortunate but I found the solution: play Delver with it's Stifles and Flusterstorms and Pierces.

I really don't think Goblins can afford to be played with specific combo cards in mind. Thalia is amazing and versatile against a LOT of decks so she makes the cut but everything else is too specific. I assume one day they'll print a 2 mana thalia + containment priest hybrid that also has rest in peace attached and then life will be really easy but until then I'm just going to play a very similar list to the one I posted.

The only changes I'm going to make are -2 Containment Priests, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Stingscourger. Props to anyone that can fit Barbarian Rings in the 75 for the sweet combo of Loam-Ring.

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

Thalia is amazing and versatile against a LOT of decks so she makes the cut but everything else is too specific.

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Discard?

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Discard?

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https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/...to-beat-storm/

Permanent based pieces of hate (that also clock) are almost always going to be better than discard, unless you are say Elves and you can kill on turn 3 or 4 WITH disruption very frequently. In the context of Goblins, I have just found Thalia to be good *enough* to warrant inclusion in the sideboard and the splash.

Got a small bit of extra funds and I'm looking to expand my deck building options. Any suggestions? I don't have a Plateau or any white cards I've seen, no Chalice but I have most of the cheaper artifact SB cards. I've also go Therapy from TES and all the core goblin cards. I've got about $150 USD to spend. Right now I'm thinking Plateau, 3 Thalia, 2 Containment Priest.

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Originally Posted by Anubis647

Got a small bit of extra funds and I'm looking to expand my deck building options. Any suggestions? I don't have a Plateau or any white cards I've seen, no Chalice but I have most of the cheaper artifact SB cards. I've also go Therapy from TES and all the core goblin cards. I've got about $150 USD to spend. Right now I'm thinking Plateau, 3 Thalia, 2 Containment Priest.

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I felt like the white splash was to slow and i was always dying on my opponent's turn 2 when i was on the draw before i was able to do anything. I feel like black discard spells are your best option for combo hate because, you can play them on turn 1 and you can bring them in against any combo deck. You won't have sideboard cards for specific combo decks like containment priest that you won't be able to bring in against storm, depths, etc. This also gives you more consistency if you dedicate all of those sideboard slots to discard.

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Originally Posted by PrinceCortez

I felt like the white splash was to slow and i was always dying on my opponent's turn 2 when i was on the draw before i was able to do anything. I feel like black discard spells are your best option for combo hate because, you can play them on turn 1 and you can bring them in against any combo deck. You won't have sideboard cards for specific combo decks like containment priest that you won't be able to bring in against storm, depths, etc. This also gives you more consistency if you dedicate all of those sideboard slots to discard.

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It's a valid point, but on the other hand the white DnT creatures can be Vialed in, Caverned in, and give you a clock. So I can see points for both sides. From your perspective then, what would you get? I could get some Thoughtseize...

Has anyone tried Goblins with both the black and white splashes? I've seen green, green/black, white, white/green, but never black/white. Seems like it'd be great for combo matchups.

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Originally Posted by Anubis647

It's a valid point, but on the other hand the white DnT creatures can be Vialed in, Caverned in, and give you a clock. So I can see points for both sides. From your perspective then, what would you get? I could get some Thoughtseize...

Has anyone tried Goblins with both the black and white splashes? I've seen green, green/black, white, white/green, but never black/white. Seems like it'd be great for combo matchups.

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I think is duable.
White splash work well with chalice imho so you have a turn 1 play while develop a boardstate:
T1 lackey (or vial) + chalice @ 0
T2 lackey connect cheating other beater + play Thalia, canonist, chalice @1 or start to port them is a strong sequence.

If you have around 150 to spend the double splash could be out of budget, since badland price grows lately tnx to Czech pile. But also chalice are quite expensive and I would not play less than 3 to have good chances to find it in opening hand, so they could take a big part of the budget too.
You could try Rwb with 1-2 plateau and a singleton rb shockland just to fetch in combo MU, try it with proxies first or ask to a play mate one badland just for some tournaments and buy it in the future.

Tnx to who post the article on how beat storm, good read

Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by menph

I think is duable.
White splash work well with chalice imho so you have a turn 1 play while develop a boardstate:
T1 lackey (or vial) + chalice @ 0
T2 lackey connect cheating other beater + play Thalia, canonist, chalice @1 or start to port them is a strong sequence.

If you have around 150 to spend the double splash could be out of budget, since badland price grows lately tnx to Czech pile. But also chalice are quite expensive and I would not play less than 3 to have good chances to find it in opening hand, so they could take a big part of the budget too.
You could try Rwb with 1-2 plateau and a singleton rb shockland just to fetch in combo MU, try it with proxies first or ask to a play mate one badland just for some tournaments and buy it in the future.

Tnx to who post the article on how beat storm, good read

Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando Tapatalk

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Oh! I'm sorry, I should have specified. I have two Badlands and two Taiga so I have pretty much everything else. I just can't afford Chalice and I don't have any Thoughtseize (but I do have Duress and Therapy).

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Originally Posted by Anubis647

Oh! I'm sorry, I should have specified. I have two Badlands and two Taiga so I have pretty much everything else. I just can't afford Chalice and I don't have any Thoughtseize (but I do have Duress and Therapy).

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I would get a Settler, and add in Kiki if you're not playing it. The settler-kiki combo is truely devastating in so many matchups, and can be a great way to steal games against lands, Punishing Fire decks, Sneak+Show and others.

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

I mean... at least we have a chance against those decks with sideboard cards and the super fast kills the deck can bring unopposed. Especially Rabblemaster, holy cow that is a hell of a clock.

I had no specific sideboard cards for Czech Pile and Sneak and Show/Reanimator are essentially unwinnable even with sideboard cards which is why I didn't bother putting a Stingscourger in my 75. Are there even specific sideboard cards we can play against the Czech Pile? lol

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The relics in your board are pretty much enough against Pile. Besides messing with their many graveyard synergies (drs, snapcaster, Liliana last hope, k command), the delayed cantrip can be fantastic against their frequent discard-heavy hands. Getting to store up a card “on board” is really great.

The one sideboard card that is fantastic against both pile and SnS is definitely Pyroblast. We’re probably underplaying that card as a whole, the blue decks are maindecking it sometimes lol.

In my current build I have a couple cards that are really helpful postboard against Pile: 2 relics, 1 pyroblast, 1 k command, and a siege gang. I’m also gonna try boarding in 2 therapies on the draw since I’m gonna board out all the lackeys and want more stuff to do on t1. So -1 warren weirding, -4 lackey, -1 prospector. Also would bring in squad if I’m not already maindecking it.

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Originally Posted by Anubis647

While we're having a controversial discussion on card choices, I thought I would throw out two more questions.

First, has anyone tested multiple Skirk Prospector? I always considered it a mid to late game sac outlet, but I realized just the other might that it also enables turn 2 Matron, lords, and Blood Moon. Is it worth running multiple copies to enable those types of plays?

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I'm playing 2 prospectors main deck actually, and they perform extremly well, especially in a build with 4 tarfire/gempalm/ MWM, super grindy list for the long run

The main problem with Prospector is that it's such an anaemic card a lot of the time. Obviously in a few of my matches it was absolutely fucking insane, and I've had some pretty funny games with it (Krenko + Skirk Prospector beats Tabernacle:tongue:) but unless it's doing really explosive things like turning 2 War Marshall into Matron into Rabblemaster on turn 2 or turning your Goblin Sharpshooter into an M60, it's not really a card you want.

It is the perfect one of but I would find it hard to justify playing more than the singleton.

Life from the Loam is a card that greatly interests me right now that can fulfil a similar role of getting your mana online.

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

The main problem with Prospector is that it's such an anaemic card a lot of the time. Obviously in a few of my matches it was absolutely fucking insane, and I've had some pretty funny games with it (Krenko + Skirk Prospector beats Tabernacle:tongue:) but unless it's doing really explosive things like turning 2 War Marshall into Matron into Rabblemaster on turn 2 or turning your Goblin Sharpshooter into an M60, it's not really a card you want.

It is the perfect one of but I would find it hard to justify playing more than the singleton.

Life from the Loam is a card that greatly interests me right now that can fulfil a similar role of getting your mana online.

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Never used it as a ritual :rolleyes:
It's just insane if you're playing 3/4 marshalls and interactive lists, just give it a try.
Futhermore it's a 1 drop, that means you can actually win a game without vial or lackey in your opening hand.
It actually makes your moves unpredictable since you can bolt creatures from nowere, and your opponents know that. This will lead 'em playing safer which means tempo for us. Won't never go under 2 copies again, i'm playing 2 since top's ban and i couldn't be happier :smile:

Reading through the thread I remembered a theory of deck building. If you bring in a card more than 50% of the time then it should be in the main deck. I extrapolated a little bit on that and went through the different 1 of goblins we run and took a % of the meta that I would want them against. I then did this for finishers and for a couple other non-core characters. Now this is subjective to me believing a card has impact on a matchup or at least a target so I encourage those with the time and dedication to do this themselves. For the lazy here's a quick summary of what I came up with.

Utility Guys, Typically 1-Ofs

Goblin Sharpshooter: Good Against 33% of the Meta
Tuktuk Scrapper: Good Against 34% of the Meta
Tinstreet Hooligan: Good Against 38% of the Meta
Stingscourger: Good Against 57% of the Meta
Earwig Squad: Good Against 41% of the Meta
Skirk Prospector: Good Against 52% of the Meta
Goblin Settler (I don't have much testing with this guy): Good Against 64% of the Meta
Goblin Chirurgeon: Good Against 38% of the Meta

Finishers: Typically 1-Ofs

Krenko: Good Against 53% of the Meta
Seige Gang Commander: Good Against 95% of the Meta
Kiki-Jiki: Good Against 87% of the Meta
Goblin Piledriver: Good Against 67% of the Meta
Goblin Rabblemaster: Good Against 53% of the Meta
Lightning Crafter: Good Against 70% of the Meta

A couple other dudes I also looked at

Goblin Chieftain: Good against 73% of the Meta
Mogg War Marshal: Good against 64% of the Meta


I used the percentages on MTG top 8, so this kind of analysis will also have to be done specific to the meta you expect. I did not do all the cards, It would take a while and I wanted to post the thought process more than the specific numbers. Each deck is weighted based on it's percentage of the meta. Only the following Decks were taken into account.

Grixis Delver, Miracles, D&T, Eldrazi, Czech Pile, Show & Tell, Grixis Control, Stoneblade, Lands, Storm, Ranimator, Bug Delver, Elves, Dark Depths, UR Delver, Merfolk, Infect, Bug Midrange, Cloudpost Ramp, Dredge, Mono R Stompy, Burn, Maverick, Punishing Jund, RUG Delver, MUD, 4C Loam, Nic Fit, Mono R Sneak, Alluren, Belcher Food Chain.

There are the decks on MTG Top 8 that make up 1% or higher of the meta.

Any card under 50% I believe should theoretically be in the sideboard for the most consistent results. I will be adjusting my list by this theory and testing it out.
Appreciate some thoughts on what these percentages may mean to other people. I have an excel document that lists out the specific matchups I think each card has play against. If somebody wants those I can post 'em.

Working with the theory I posted above I've crafted this list:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Plateau
5 Red Fetch

I was heavily debating going white and black splash. Mainly so I can make my decklist name "What's up Mardude?" My thought process for just splashing white is as follows.

Started with wanting Earwig and Weirding in the side. 1 badlands was only a 27% chance to get my black source to cast Weirding. At 22 lands. I've been at 22 lands with a fetchless list and it has been going well. Removing the badlands for an additional mountain changed my chance of getting wastelanded from ~25% to ~20%. To me this was 1 in 5 games vs 1 in 4 games, so it seemed significant. Unfortunately that made me have to drop Earwig from the side. I kept white splash because I agree that permanents that slow down the opposing combo deck are, while slower, where I would want to be. So, Rw and I'll have to try Mardudes another time.

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Goblin Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Siege Gang Commander

3 Tarfire
2 Gempalm Incinerator

~1.5 average CMC making 22 lands work nicely. I typically run kiki Jiki because against combo with a lackey and a piledriver it kills T3 and it grinds CA nicely while avoiding push. I got rid of him this time because of how much more impact Siege Gang has against the field. And swinging for 17 on T3 is pretty much just as good. No krenko because he seemed to be less impactful right now, although I love him and I'm hard pressed not to play him in a list with 7 haste lords. Skirk MD with no sharpshooter because Skirk Does more by himself in more matchups than sharpshooter. Sharpshooter to the sideboard. No lightning crafter because Piledriver costs less and is good against close to the same percentage of the meta. 5 removal is lighter than I am used to however this list will apply more pressure allowing for removal to be used on more key pieces of the opponents.

Sideboard
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Tuktuk Scrapper (Over Tinstreet because of the aforementioned issue I ran into with badlands as well as running 4 Warchief)
1 Goblin Piledriver (Was the earwig slot, does a lot of similar things in the matchups I wanted earwig for. Namely speeding up the clock, but also applying pressure without having to commit too much to the board.
3 Pyrokenisis (I found it's well positioned against 54% of the meta right now. That makes me feel like it should be main decked but I didn't find room.)
1 Stingscourger (I've really enjoyed having 2 of these guys in the 75)
2 Surgical Extraction (Quick interaction vs combo decks and can snipe loams and pfires
2 Relic of Projenitus (Was swapping between this and Grafdiggers, Graf hits Elves but relic hits a few delver decks. This is apart from the normal GY strategies they both address.)
3 Thalia (Bae is back. Great against 55% of the meta right now, I almost want to main deck her again but I don't want to lower my ringleader percentages.)

I'm going to sleeve this up and see what it can do. Our weeklies here have been getting close to 30 people a night so it should be able to take on the gauntlet.

Hey guys, after thinking it through, let's go ahead and have a discord.

https://discord.gg/2jd7WBf

I intentionally didn't add anything special to the discord. I figured I should see how it grows before adding anything.


I'm also working on an update to the Primer as it's getting dated.