You could also potentially run Helix Pinnacle and Trade Routes/Words of Wind and Explorations and generate 100 mana in a single turn...
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You could also potentially run Helix Pinnacle and Trade Routes/Words of Wind and Explorations and generate 100 mana in a single turn...
Well, yeah, I usually do it in 2 turns: deal 0-6 the turn it lands and the rest in the following turn. I actually did it in tournament setting when turns were called.Quote:
Originally Posted by waSP
What are you suggesting to run as better wincon?
I'm a big fan of infinite combos. I run Living Wish to increase the consistency of a turn 3 Enchantress, so my kill folds right into that. I have Wheel of Sun and Moon as well as Vineyards (alternate kill) for too clever opponents who like to counter Wish and then Extirpate it.
Greetings all of you enchrantress players. I have been playing this deck for a while and I am going to pilot it at GP chicago since I am doing that I am going to spend the cash to get exploartions, runed halos and a moat or 2.
So my question to all of you how do you feel about the tendrils matuch up(ANT or TES). I can see most of you just pray to that is all holly that you pull your runed halo and protect it.
What do you guys think of 4 orim's chants in the side, is this a waste or not? I was thinking of running 4 orim's chants in the side for this matchup along with a total of three ruined halos(either all 3 in the main or 2 main 1 side). Which still leaves me 10 to 11 side board spots.
I am fairly certain that there will be a good amount of control and thresh present so I will bring city of solitudes and chokes. My major concern is I want to be some what prepared for most of the field. Granted the chants are only good against TES, ANT, and solidarity but I do not want to get caught with my pants down.
Chalice of the Void at 0 or 1 is probably going to be a lot better against ANT/TES. It should give you enough time to get your other answers up.
Keeping myself away from the combo subject, since I have null experience on that, I just want to point that I've been way happier with Gaea's Touch than I have been with Explorations. I now run 2 and 0, respectively. Also, I'd probably test 1 Moat in the deck, but no way I'd play more than that. There's been some discussion on this last issue already, so I should better leave it alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by e1567
Against ANT with white, there should be 0 effective answers we can come up with, simply because Serenity will blow all of them. The earliest you can land a Chalice @ 1 is turn 2, so there's at least 1 turn for Top/Mystical/Cantrips to do what they do and find the single card that will be needed to beat everything you put in front of them. Coming online soon enough and/or paired with Orim's Chant, the only thing you can do is try to blow it with Seal of Primordium before it can trigger. Also, Karmic Justic will do close to nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by e1567
The same should hold true for TES players that still pack Cleanfall/Tranquility in the wishboard.
How is vineyard an alternate kill when half the format is running green and/or sensei's divining top? Wheel of Sun and Moon (enchanting yourself) acts like a pseudo-squee, so you can keep confinement alive long enough for your opponent to deck themself, is a much better "alternate" win con. However, this takes considerably longer than Words of War.
@ Living wish: you (should) run 4 presence, 4 argothian, and 4 grove. That means you should (on average) have 1-2 of said cards in your oppening hand. Factor in mulligans, then chances are you have 2-4 "engine cards" during your first 3 turns. If one gets destroyed/countered, you have 3 replenish to get them back, plus moat/choke/city/grass/halo/bloodmoon/o-ring/aura/sigil/mesa to stall until you find what you need.
By adding 4 living wish, your making replenish much less effective (if wish gets countered, your screwed), slowing your own deck down, and giving your opponent two chances to counter your important spell (counterbalance <3s living wish). And don't forget that wish means removing 3-4 cards, and running fewer enchantments. Wish = jank.
EDIT:
I think 4 chants are a mistake. Sure, you can buy yourself a turn or two, but you don't have anything relevant to do during that turn. They will have bounce long before you have grove-lock and halo. Use those sideboard slots for something better. I run 1 Gaea's Blessing in my board against painter-grindstone. That makes painter-grindstone, ichorid, belcher, and solidarity all win-able matches.Quote:
What do you guys think of 4 orim's chants in the side, is this a waste or not? I was thinking of running 4 orim's chants in the side for this matchup along with a total of three ruined halos(either all 3 in the main or 2 main 1 side). Which still leaves me 10 to 11 side board spots.
"Within three turns" is inclusive. 3 turns is the outside.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
Not as relevant as turning 1 wasted slot into 6 wasted slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by wasp
Look, the kill condition in the deck is mostly a formality. Keeping that in mind, it should A) Take up as few slots in the deck as possible, and B) Be an enchantment.
Living Wish is just too damned slow. I don't want to have to wait for turn 3 to play an Enchantress, by then you're a turn behind the rest of the format.
Yes, the ability to grab Sanctum or an Argothian or Squee can be useful, but it's usually outweighed by the way it slows down your main gameplan. Even if it didn't cut into your SB slots, it wouldn't be worth running.
re: Combo match-up. I suggest putting 4 Chants/CotV in the SB and praying a lot. Not much else you can do.
See I am not so sure about using chalice if I go ahead and throw it down at 1 I shutdown the possibility of me putting down more acceleration(I am assuming that they are either going to bounce or destroy the chalice) I have been looking at competitive deck lists and some of them run orim’s chant where as I have seen very few run chalice of the void.Quote:
Originally Posted by waSP
I have also used Gaea’s touch in the past as a two of but I am shifting the mana base around to support runed halo more consistently so I don’t see its ability of droping an extra basic forest all that beneficial on the other hand I do really like its sack ability in conjunction with replenish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
I personally know of very few decks that bring in serenity I see much more of tranquility personally. If tranquility is in a TES side board I really don’t see much we can do. A Karmic justice will simply slow them down while we have lost all of our permenants. But I do see chalice at 1 being pretty good against ANT and Solidarity but not so much against TES. But the more I think about it the more likely TES is completely unwinnable if they run tranquility in the side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
But against the other two I still think that chant can stop them during a crucial turn in which we will have maybe another turn to throw down runed halo with protection. Where as chalice should slow down ANT to a crawl solidarity will just grab a bounce spell from its board to stop chalice…..
So is chalice the consenses, I would still like a good argument against chant I appreciates Jaiminho’s response but he did admit at having little experience in the combo matchup.
I'm pretty sure no one has much experience in the combo matchup. However, you should feel free to test the ANT vs. Enchantress matchup, that sure sounds like a fun afternoon. You should try out Belcher v 42land while your at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by e1567
If your gonna play anything, i think chalice would be best. However 4 halo + 4 chalice + 4 Enlightened Tutor is still gonna have a poor matchup against tendrils.dec
Chalice is applicable against other decks, mainly. LftL comes to mind. As does Burn.
It's also good with E. Tutor in the SB, if you're running that.
On the other hand, Chant is potentially useful vs. Control? Has anyone tried this strategy post board?
Also, CotV doesn't get hit by Thoughtseize (as much).
I have said the same thing before, I think a Words kill is too slow. With regards to Sigil of the Empty Throne, if you want that as your kill, try Concordant Crossroads as a one of to kick start your barrage. It's one thing to drop 6 angels in one turn, it's another for them to be hasted. Follow that up with Pegasus, and you have a sizable army. Now, if you added Mirari's Wake to that, that would be fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by waSP
I don't think Gaea's Touch is worth it either, especially when the second land you want to drop is Sanctum. Exploration makes turn 2 Presence possible. But that has been fought over before.
As for the Artifact for the sideboard, I have finally decided on Null Rod. It's a disgusting way to stop artifacts in general, Jitte, Ravager, Top, even artifact lands.
*facepalm*
In the last few pages we discussed this, so I advice you to read the last 4 pages or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by e1567
My opinion is to just give up the combo matchup: you're going to lose EVERY g1. Winning both G2 and G3 is hard, even with Halos+Orim, so I'd just lose the match and win the other ones with 6 more SB slots at my disposal.
I would run Titania's Song over null rod. Aside from being an enchantment, it hurts more decks harder.Quote:
As for the Artifact for the sideboard, I have finally decided on Null Rod. It's a disgusting way to stop artifacts in general, Jitte, Ravager, Top, even artifact lands.
I did read all the pages, i.e I have been a lurker on this topic for a while now. Most of this discussion involved giving up like you said or using chalice and enlighten tutor I was just curious to why everyone dislikes chant. I still have not heard a definite reason why it sucks, sure it might just slow them down a turn while we try to get a lock, but in essence does not chalice do the same?Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
Chant requires you to leave mana open, which means that while you are slowing your opponent down, you are slowing yourself down too. With Chalice you can just set it and forget it.Quote:
Originally Posted by e1567
However, I'd tend to agree that combo is pretty much a lot cause without a significant change to the maindeck. I had been testing a GWBr build with a set of maindeck Thoughtseizes. Besides making the combo matchup winnable (though still highly unfavored), they certainly went a long way to letting my Enchantresses resolve. In the end, however, it was a huge strain on my manabase and made me feel a bit light on enchantments sometimes, and I'm back to a more traditional GWr build right now. It still might be worth exploring further though.
To be honest, first time I've ever seen that card. I can see Song doing wonders to Affinity's lands, but won't stop Ravager. Plus Rod is cheaper. I just need a turn or 2 extra in which not to die. The song won't give me that fast enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by honz
Song may not be as good in the affinity matchup, but it is much better against stax, chalice aggro, and combo (if thats relevant)
Wait, why is it better against combo?
The other problem I found with Song is that against Stax, and to a lesser extent XStompy, it may shut down their lock pieces, but suddenly you find yourself staring down 8+ points of power.