Printable View
Goblins assumes the control role a lot. If it didn't it wouldn't run things like Wasteland and Port. It packs mana denial, card drawing (not just selection), tutors, and runs a bunch of non-aggressively/over-costed creatures (3 mana 1/1s and 4 mana 2/2s), all characteristics of control. One of the decks biggest strengths is its ability to change roles so easily. Read this if you haven't.Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalDragon09
I never said goblins could not or does not assume a controlling roll. It just simply does not win by playing land every turn and passing gripping denial/ removal. As far as the wasteland, port thing goes that is not control just denial. Control is where a deck has mass removal of some sort and well just isn't goblins!!! Come on just because it has some aspects of control as you would like to call it does not mean it is!!!! So the next time i play an aggro deck oh lets say LANDSTILL? I will be sure to run ringleader and matron in place of counterspell and STP because according to some that is control and not aggro based card advantage. Well then again i do suppose that goblins is control now because piledriver is well as most in this particular forum said..... BAD. WHAT? ok im sure i would love to get paired against one person that thinks king is bad and tarfire sucks, playing weirding and wort, then when i bash them because they are trying to edict me/ or them everyturn trying to stay alive i will have more than one driver on the board and they will still think he is a sorry card. That truly is a shame goblins one of the most notorious aggro decks every constructed in legacy has been demeaned to this.
You've totally missed the point.
:frown:
Tarfire is in the same boat as Goblin Sledder, the Titanic. Im sorry but you would have to have a seriously large object lodged in your head to truly believe Shock is better then an Diabolic Edict effect in a format full of 4/5s and shrouded creatures.
What he said. Also shocks aren't good enough. Playing an Edict effect every single turn is much better against Thresh (all of its variants, which also happens to be the top archetype right now) than playing shock to the dome.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeenieBopper
Also I can tell by your post that you didn't read that article I linked to. Do yourself a favor and read it, so you understand what we mean by control.
That's because people got tired of winning with it. It's like a hard-to-kill virus. The deck has endured and people still play (and win) with it today.Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalDragon09
As a side-note: How's Patriarch's Bidding working for you, Mike? Is that something you want to consider keeping and should it stay in the deck? Black is obviously a huge addition, so would it warrant those slots?
Meh. It hasn't been all that great. It's weird. I'm always pissed off drawing it when I don't want/need it, and then when I want/need it, I never have it. It was great in T2 when you could use it as an additional win condition (Prospector, Sharpshooter, Siege Gang tricks) but we don't have that option in Legacy. It's more of an anti-mass removala card, and we don't need any more of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Legend
The only time I play it is when I'm building my board and I've got a slot or two left over and I don't know what to put in it. So I shrug and say, "fuck it."
NO the format is not just consistent of 4/5 or shrouded creatures, it also consists of Dark Confidant and little 2 toughness blockers. (Meddling Mage, Nomad's En-kor, Mishra's Factory and more.....) Tarfire increases your breakfast match up as well, being that they can combo faster than you can do 20 damage to them, so you can RESPOND by killing their Cephalid Sage or Nomad's/ Shaman En-kor. And i did read that link and it was ok i mean i can see logical reasoning but not everything i agree with.
Look at some recent Top 8 results. On many occasions, more than half the decks run Tarmogoyfs. Based on this, I'd say that our format LARGELY consists of 1G beaters.
Now look again at Top 8 results, and see how many times Cephalid Breakfast appears.
Weirding is simply better against a huge majority of the format; Tarfire is not. Plus, Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator help your game against Cephalid Breakfast.
Mogg Fanatic does this.Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalDragon09
Also, Weirding kills more stuff. ZOMG TOMBSTALKER(pretty popular now)!!! Can't Tarfire that one. Thresh is probably the most popular deck in the format right now(besides Dragon Stompy), and sure enough, tons of people play and place with it.
Look at all of the decks that play Goyf. Landstill(some versions), Thresh, Pikula, Breakfast, G/x/x Aggro/Suicide, TEC, The Rock, Survival, Aluren(some), Aggro Loam, Affiniy(some), Goyf Sligh, Goblins(some still do I think) and many others.
Nimble Mongoose isn't as played in decks, but since Thresh is huge right now, you cannot deny that Weirding is much better in almost every situation OTHER than 'zOMG gotta burn my opponent' and 'need to shock that dood'. Even then, we have Incinerator to do that job.
Your reasons to not splash black are weak.
This forum needs a facepalm smiley. That article is pretty much the basis of advanced play technique. Role misassignment cost games and wins tournaments. Trying to counter the preceeding statements should prove difficult, if not impossible, if you were really to try to.Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalDragon09
@Tarfire vs. Wierding: Wierding suplements Incinerator, which does all that you want Tarfire to do, but better. Incinerator is uncounterable, nets CA, and does all the other things that it does that I never thought that I would have to explain to a goblins player in my lifetime. Also, you aren't going to respond to en-kor by killing it. Maybe the Illusionist, but not the Nomad. Considering that they generally won't have any other creatures on the board aside from one or the other, you still throw off thier combo, so Tarfire has no merit in this situation.
I'm playing 4x Weirding right now and they're very strong. Especially with Wort. Now that that subject is exhausted, do you guys splash Green in RB goblins, for Hooligan/Grip Postboard? It seems worthwile to me.
I've been testing a Rgb list for a few weeks and it showed very good results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
Here's the list i'm playing:
2 Taiga
2 Badland
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
5 Mountain
1 Wort Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Siege Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Warren Weirding
4 AEther Vial
SB:
3 Warren Weirding
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
And this is the strongest version of Goblin i've been running since i started to play it 2 years ago.
Cabal + Leyline makes the combo matchups quiet easy and Weirding is very strong vs ******** and aggro decks.
Krosan Grip is a very strong addition that gets rid of most of the former lethal threats for this deck.
The only matchup that i havent been able to win is aggro loam. But I guess it cant be helped whatever version you run.
Doesn't the lack of synergy between Hooligan and Warchief suck? Maybe drop him for the second Wort. Also, maybe do a 3/2(or 2/3)split of Incinerators and Weirdings. Weirdings owns. Incinerator is nice for the draw, but usually doesn't do the trick soon enough. Plus it gets a discount from Chief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasha
Your board looks good, but I like Crypt over LotV. I don't like having dead draws later.
Just wondering, but do you guys just never run into Jitte? You all seemed to have dropped TSH, but what do you do when a resolved Jitte with counters is owning you?
You lose. Or you run Goblin Sledder and lose more because you run Goblin Sledder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
After about a month of messing around with it I've determined that I hate the black splash. Tin-Street and Krosan Grip are way too good. Hooligan's either an undercosted artifact eater or an extremely undercosted 2/1 haste beater. Grip solves everything ever. Oh, and Red has a way to deal with Tarmogoyf, if that's a concern. Here's my current Goblins list.
4 Taiga
6 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tin-Street Hooligan
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Siege-Gang Commander
SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Spitebellows
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
Spitebellows, for all intents and purposes, reads as follows:
1RR, Sorcery: Spitebellows deals 6 damage to target Tarmogoyf, which is almost always enough to kill it since your goblin build doesn't run Enchantments, Planeswalkers, or Tribal cards. If an opponent has more Engineered Plagues in play than you have Krosan Grips, Spitebellows may in rare cases also be used to destroy target opponent, though this will rarely work.
Okay, yeah, it's not a Warren Weirding / Wort lock. It has a worse matchup against Threshold.
However, it has an incredible mirror match, with 4 Hooligans eating every Vial in sight. It also has a pretty solid Dragon Stompy match, as Hooligans can eat Jitte, Chalice, and the opponent's manabase in Chrome Mox. (And Spitebellows is -fantastic- against Dragon Stompy. Watch their face when you do it to a flipped Akroma!) It has a fairly unassailable manabase which can support up to 4 Ports or down to 0 depending on your Port preference.
It actually has a few decent combo matches, too. Crypt + Spitebellows + Fanatic slaughters Ichorid. Crypt + Pyrokinesis + Fanatic gives you a pretty solid fighting chance against Cephalid Breakfast. Lots of Hooligans ups your chances of racing turn 4-5 kill decks. You still die to TES and Belcher and SI and stuff like that, but Goblins has been doing a good job of dying to speed combo decks since Legacy began. As long as half the universe plays Threshold, those decks won't be seen all that commonly. (Also, it's actually possible to Pyrokinesis your way through an ETW to beat Belcher, or randomly Wasteland TES into a rough spot, so they aren't complete auto-losses, just really bad.)
Mostly, though, the mirror is pretty crucial. Our last tournament was over 1/3 Goblins, and R/G + 4 Hooligans crushes face in the mirror.
Just a thought if you're not a huge fan of black but like me felt compelled to play it due to Wort and Warren Weirding. You don't have to.
EDIT: I fully expect the suggestion of not running black to be 4C Landstill's Not Running Wasteland all over again, so I won't argue that the black splash has anything wrong with it. I just personally hate it and never had good results with it.
When I see some of you talk about Tarfire, I cannot get around suggesting the "Tribal - Changeling" Removals.
Nameless Inversion is a "Goblin (,Elf, Beast, whatever)"-Removal, killing anything Tarfire kills plus any x/3s, like Kird Ape/Skyshroud Elite, Finkel Mages, pumped Factories etc...
Basically it's just a better Last Gasp.
Crib Swab is the same, just like StoP. Ofc it's a slightly worse version of StoP, but at least the opponent does not gain 4-5 Life/Goyf. A 1/1 vanilla can be dealt with/overrun, i suppose.
Both are recurrable with Wort, both get cheaper with Warchief and both are tutorable with Ringleader/Matron, both are instants, so you can interrupt your opponents Breakfast-Combo, one of them kills goyfs reliably.
I guess they have to be tested, but both look better than Tarfire.
Go figure...
I don't know what you're smoking, Tacosnape, other than possibly Pointlesslys Nonconformistia. To me, Warren Weirding is the whole reason that Goblins feels like an unfair deck again. Wort isn't as critical, but it's still a must-counter for most of my opponent.
And what's with packing Tarmogoyf answers in the sideboard only (and terrible ones at that, when compared to Weirding)? If your meta looks like 2006, fine, but outside of that your build is unjustifiable. Whatever mirror advantage 4 Hooligans over 2 Worts give you, it just can't be compared to what Weirding and Wort give you against half of the meta.
And finally, why do you have to give up on Grip/Hooligan to play black? Run eight fetches and you'll easily support two Taigas for the SB Grips, and one maindeck Hooligan if you need it (personally, my answer to Jitte is "kill your creature, swing"). You wouldn't want non-Red basics anyway. All you lose are two Rishadan Ports, hardly critical.
I'm going to have to agree with Nihil on this one Taco. Pounding face at your meta is fine, but I really don't think your deck could ever win any large tournaments. Cutting black becasue you've had bad luck with it in the past is not a good enough reason to cut the best goblin removal spell ever printed. You also just throw your hands up and pray that a turn 4 or 5 kill will get there against fast combo and burn. In a 5-7 Round tournament, and if you plan on T8ing, you WILL run into fast combo (though admittidly, probably not burn). I go to tournaments planning to win. Meh, again, fine for local metagame, but I would never consider it for anything outside of that.
Tacos list is strong in the mirror. I run a bastard r/b build, and it did smash me 2 games. Although 1st game was a shit hand i should of mulliganed, and 2nd game was a completely wrong sideboard call. With that being said, I feel any mono red or red with a light splash of green deck has the advantage against me. Especially game 1. This is the first tourny that I've had to play another goblin deck. Anywho top 3 all goblins haha. Ya was a janky tournament though, people trying out new decks and failing with them :wink: . Also its the tourny we run in town to try and get new players into legacy, and the newer guys are new. So deck quality isn't tier 1 per se.