[Deck] Ichorid

You don't really hit 2 mana that fast, or that reliably.
Needles greatest strength is that it's actually castable.

And extended does not run chrome mox. Some people did top8 at the ptqs with them, but I recall something like 2 out of ~100+ dredge top8s. Some people just got lucky. A guy actually top8'd with Aethersnipe and Mulldrifter as his DR targets. Talk about suboptimal.

Ichorid needs reliability more than anything else. I find the hate manageable. Sometimes you get assfucked by multiple crypts and crappy dredging, and sometimes the opp. just mulls into oblivion seeking leyline.

If you really want to play serenity, I think you need to up the landcount to ~14 to be able to reliably cast it. I could even see myself siding some lands, because a board of CoV, Serenity and Needle is just so versatile it might be enough to handle any form of hate.

Just my first impressions though.

Yeah, I think you guys are seriously underrating how difficult it is to get 2 mana when you really need. The thing about Pithing Needle and Chain of Vapor, which deal with most of the same problems, is that their both 1cc and can be supported off of all 12 lands.

IDK, if it works for you, go for it, but it seems really clunky.

I was just a little concerned since during Game2 matchups with good opponents sideboarding hate, going second for Ichorid is pretty crappy. I'm not sure about you guys but Chalice at 1 really hurts the deck's consistency overall (no PImps, Breakthrougjs, Careful Studies, even Pithing Needles). First turn Moon effects is another pain against DragonStompy and you need to pray for a manaless dredge effect and good dredge-decking to combo off in his face.

I love Ichorid since this decks steals wins that are unprepared against it. But hate often causes the deck to lose terribly. I was thinking along the lines on how to reduce the reliance of the deck about its one mana spells, although it might dilute the power of the deck.

Basically, Stompy decks, Stax decks running Chalice first turn would slow this deck down, and with Crypts, it seems almost hard to deal with. I've personally tested Phantagosmarian over PImp. It is strictly worse, but it gives you a good and uncounterable discard outlet. I was stressing for more reliance on 2-mana spells, or getting reliable 2-mana outlet on turns 1 and 2, in order to maximize the use of DAs coliseums, breakthrough to keep anti-hate card in your hand while comboing off.

Let me know on how you guys handle Chalice at one and Moon effects at one turn one. Chain of Vapor would not work here, and Moon probably hurts this deck the most.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crz87

Let me know on how you guys handle Chalice at one and Moon effects at one turn one.

---

Lion's Eye Diamond will work. As you mentioned, Phantasmagorian also works. On the draw, keep a seven card hand and use the discard step. On the play, use Cabal Therapy.

Hey guys just took 2nd place last Friday with this list.

Creatures 26
4x Putrid Imp
4x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Ichorid
1x Cephalid Sage
4x Narcomoeba
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

Sorcery 16
2x Deep Analysis
3x Careful Study
4x Breakthrough
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Dread Return

Enchantment 4
4x Bridge from Below

Artifact 4
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

Land 10
3x City of Brass
3x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Gemstone Mine

Sideboard 15
2x Ray of Revelation
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Leyline of the Void


I can't recall all the specifics or the order of the games but I will try my best.

Round 1 Steve playing Suicide Black(Hatred)

Game 1: He drops swamps and a shade I assume he is playing homebrew and therapy naming vindicate. I see a few hatreds and a phyrexion negator. I strip the hatreds and combo of for the win.

Game 2: I forgot to side in chain of vapor. However I don't see Leylines the whole game even after 3 therapies 2 flashbacks. I control the game pretty well. I strip his hand and say go. He has a shadow creature in play, draws hatered FTW. I needed those chain of vapors.

Game 3: First turn Leyline and no chain of vapor or ray of revelation in sight. I strip hatreds from his hand but I cant do much else.

0-1 (games 1-2)

Round 2 Dean Playing Green Black?

Game 1: I therapy naming pernicious deed and hit 2 of them. I then combo for the win.

Game 2: First turn Leyline on his side. I have a land and a ray of revelation in hand. Turn 3 I draw a second land. EOT cast ray of revelation combo for the win.

Not sure if this went to 3 games or not

1-1 (games 3-2 ?)

Round 3 Jerry playing turbo stasis

Game 1: I combo 2nd turn

Game 2: I dredge 2 ray of revelation and he concedes as he cant do much.

2-1 (games 5-2)

Round 4 Name? Playing Spanish inquisition.

Game 1: I combo of 1st turn (yay!)

Game 2: I think I therapy a lions eye diamond and a lotus petal. Chalice for 0 then because I see his hand from therapies I chalice for 1. This game went on for a while but I eventually combo and attack for the win. He had only played one shield sphere and no other spells.

3-1 (games 7-2)

Final Round Treavor (sp?) Playing Draco explosion

Game 1: I think I combo 3rd turn. He had next turn kill.

Game 2: He mistakenly Lim dul's for 12 life. I get 0 dredge spells I kill with a 2/2 imp. he would have won next turn again.

I plan on running the deck again tomorrow. In general things seem to only go bad because of bad play errors or not taking mulls. This is the second tourney I've played it in and the second time I have played the deck period. First time I played it I had no idea how to play it correctly and ended up 2-2 dropping. Better outcome this time.

Hey I would like to have a discussion about a very important aspect of this deck - winning post board- . I play this deck in three tourneys and rarely lose game 1 but games 2 and 3 are murder. So here are some of my points that can help stimulate discussion on the matter.

1. Is there a generally accepted method of sideboarding against the various matchups this deck. Usually I board out the dread return package and put in cards that can deal with the hate I expect my opponent to play. Maybe there are alternate sideboarding strategies out there such as adding land or taking out LED and sharing these strategies will be healthy for the discussion even if they are considered sub-optimal plays.

2. I have never slow dredged since it SEEMS to be a terrible strategy. Can those who used this tactic share its effectiveness in beating slow control decks.

3. Sometimes when I feel frustrated or tired and I know my opponent is not playing leyline then I sometimes de-sideboard and hope for a turn 1 combo (not necessarily kill) game 3. I have done this three times and won two of the games. Still what do other pilots think about this strategy? Do you think it is a good idea?

Concerning the slow dredging plan, I don't like it either in case there is no possibility to speed it up a bit. It's nice to start dredging and accelerating the dredges with coliseum. But going eot discard every turn will not beat many decks in a modern metagame. Even decks like landstill often own you when going for the eot discard mode, as many builds run Humility/Goyf/Cunning Wish --> Extirpate, and therefore wreck you if you're too slow.
Post board I consider the eot discard plan to be absolutely not viable, as you neither have got a way to fight through hate, nor a broken start if you keep a hand where you'd go for it. In general I'd rather take a mulligan, than keeping a 7 card hand without lands, some spells I can't cast and in the best case a GGT as dredger.
In general I think Ichorid doesn’t really need Lions Eye Diamond at all and we'd be better of with some more lands. Don't get me wrong, LED absolutely rocks in this deck and gives you some of the sickest openings ever. But it's only good if there are about 2-3 copies of Deep Analysis in your deck, which actually suck pretty hard without LED because of the low land count. Another aspect is, that LED makes this deck more explosive, but at the same time takes away some consistency, simply by not producing mana one could play spells with that are not Deep Analysis.
At the moment I am trying out an Ichorid list without LED (similar to extended lists without Akroma), which already seems to be much more consistent than the standard lists, but also a bit less explosive. But do we really need those turn 1 kills if we could instead have more keep able hands and a higher chance to draw enough mana to fight through graveyard hate post board?
I think you probably still beat most decks game 1 when keeping a hand with any dredger, mana and a discard outlet.
I've been playing in 2 legacy tournaments with my new build and ended up 4-1 and 3-1-1. (Drawing the mirror with a friend of mine, losing the matches to Armageddon Stax and Landstill (Leyline, Humility, Plague, Extirpate and A force for my Chain of Vapor)
So far I like the build without LED a lot, even if I have to admit I got owned by Chalice set at 1 from the Stax player and definitely would have won this game if the cc 1 cards had been LED. What do you think? Could LED/Deep Analysis be at least not as good as one might think in Ichorid? You mustn’t look at LED alone, always keep in mind, that you still have to play 2-3 Deep analysis to make them good.

If you guys think DDD sucks and cutting LED is a good idea, I think you seriously need to learn how to pilot this deck better. DDD beats control, LED beats aggro, what you do post board is based entirely on your approach to dealing with your opponent's hate.

The Extended version isn't bad if you enjoy being decisively slower than combo, you pretty much cut LED, DA and Coliseum for Tireless Tribe, Brainstorm and Tarnished Citadel and fit in Ashen Ghoul(s) some how.

I have a basic queston about Ichorid that I haven't been able to resolve based on the tourneys I've gone too: does Ichorid ever actually win a tourney?

It seems like Ichorid mainly does one of two things, it either powers through to the top 8 and loses in the 5-8 round or it scrubs out badly in the Swiss when the meta is particularly hostile too it as in when Extirpate, Tormod's Crypt or Swords to Plowshares seem to keep landing in it's path game 1.

The reason I want to know is that I've been playing main deck Leylines of the Void recently and I rarely lose a game to Ichorid, but I'm starting to think I hurt myself too much by doing that against other decks, particularly now that Threshold is not as graveyard dependent as it used to be and Cephalid Breakfast is dormant. I'm trying to work myself into a state of mind that lets me take the loss game 1 against Ichorid and then sideboard to recover.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

I have a basic queston about Ichorid that I haven't been able to resolve based on the tourneys I've gone too: does Ichorid ever actually win a tourney?

---

Yes. Check the recent tournaments in the European Historical T8 thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Muradin

Concerning the slow dredging plan, I don't like it either in case there is no possibility to speed it up a bit. It's nice to start dredging and accelerating the dredges with coliseum. But going eot discard every turn will not beat many decks in a modern metagame. Even decks like landstill often own you when going for the eot discard mode, as many builds run Humility/Goyf/Cunning Wish --> Extirpate, and therefore wreck you if you're too slow.
Post board I consider the eot discard plan to be absolutely not viable, as you neither have got a way to fight through hate, nor a broken start if you keep a hand where you'd go for it. In general I'd rather take a mulligan, than keeping a 7 card hand without lands, some spells I can't cast and in the best case a GGT as dredger.
In general I think Ichorid doesn’t really need Lions Eye Diamond at all and we'd be better of with some more lands. Don't get me wrong, LED absolutely rocks in this deck and gives you some of the sickest openings ever. But it's only good if there are about 2-3 copies of Deep Analysis in your deck, which actually suck pretty hard without LED because of the low land count. Another aspect is, that LED makes this deck more explosive, but at the same time takes away some consistency, simply by not producing mana one could play spells with that are not Deep Analysis.
At the moment I am trying out an Ichorid list without LED (similar to extended lists without Akroma), which already seems to be much more consistent than the standard lists, but also a bit less explosive. But do we really need those turn 1 kills if we could instead have more keep able hands and a higher chance to draw enough mana to fight through graveyard hate post board?
I think you probably still beat most decks game 1 when keeping a hand with any dredger, mana and a discard outlet.
I've been playing in 2 legacy tournaments with my new build and ended up 4-1 and 3-1-1. (Drawing the mirror with a friend of mine, losing the matches to Armageddon Stax and Landstill (Leyline, Humility, Plague, Extirpate and A force for my Chain of Vapor)
So far I like the build without LED a lot, even if I have to admit I got owned by Chalice set at 1 from the Stax player and definitely would have won this game if the cc 1 cards had been LED. What do you think? Could LED/Deep Analysis be at least not as good as one might think in Ichorid? You mustn’t look at LED alone, always keep in mind, that you still have to play 2-3 Deep analysis to make them good.

---

Without LED you have basically no chance to race other combo, and even take away your chance to win before non-Leyline hate comes online. Making the deck like Extended is a mistake because you lose to ability to win turn 1 ever, and turn 2 as often. You also rely more on spells this way, which is bad, making blue decks able to interact with you some (EOT discard is good against Landstill/Thresh if you need to), and also makes Chalice at 1 a pain. Chalice isnt so bad now since we can still get an LED/DA/Coliseum opening, or simply EOT discard, but toploading the deck with more 1s (Tribe, Study).

At everyone, honestly, in my opinion the deck is pretty much perfect at the moment, I mean 58 of the MD slots are standard and most of the SB is as well, we shouldnt mess with something thats already the best, especially when that means playing an Extended legal deck in Legacy.

LED isn't simply used with DA. It provides the required mana for activation of Cephalid Coliseum. Hell, it is a One with Nothing if you want to start rolling with a good hand with no draws (although not recommended). LED is in some sort a one-time Legacy Bazaar with no draws, and compliments the draw with DA. LED-DA is hugely synergistic and is one of the winning combo pieces that outrace other combo.

I'm not sure, but personally I'm worried that the deck is too dependent on its 1cc spells. A Chalice at one destroys this deck's ability to discard, draw, and answer hate (if you run Chain of Vapor). And it's really scary to see Chalice running wild in Legacy (in Stompy variants, some pox variants, Stax and sideboard).

I am in support of spreading out the 1cc spells, and advocate the use of Chrome Mox but I'll have to test and work out a list rigorously. This deck basically needs one dredger, one land (preferbly two mana open), and a discard outlet to spin off. LED provides the latter two crucial key that makes the deck work so I highly suggest keeping it.

I have played with chrome mox in one tournament and from my experience every colored card in the opening hand is precious with the exception of opening hands containing narcomoebas and extra dredgers. There were also plenty of times that the mox was useless due to the color requirements of the deck.

I also tried a slower a modified extended list (with ashen ghouls and other legacy goodies) that was slower, could still combo kill on turn 2, and had a better midrange strat in the form of flying, recurring 3/1 beatdown. I went 0-3 and and never looked back on that build again.

The time I was grateful for chrome mox was in some game 2 and 3 since it is an assured unwastelandable source of mana. This is critical in games that drag long due to both players mulliganing for hate and answers. (In this case it was chain as the other sb cards can never be cast without rainbows)

I believe lotus petal is a better slot for this since this enables turn 1 kills better, helps reach threshold, provides access to every color and though it can only be used once. Again discussion on the matter would be productive.

Testing accelerants I concur that Lotus Petal is a better choice. You'll usually only need the mana once if you play correctly and it keeps a card in your hand that you would've needed to RFG. Important when you may need to rely on DDD.

Dr. Kokusho..

Slow playing against control is so powerfull because you can win without ever playing a spell. Rolling into Ichorids and Narcomeoba's is enough on its own to win against decks like MUC. If an unexperienced Landstill player drops a Standstill on you the game pretty much goes to you if you play through correctly.

Dredging Cabal Therapies is the key to alot of your control problems. It helps to trigger Crypts when people see a Narcomeoba coming into play, and provides you free ways to disrupt countermagic.

I normally do remove 2 Therapies against goblins since keeping men on the table is so crucial against them. They normally drop all their good targets in the first turn anyways. (lackey, fanatic, crypt) All thats left is mid game Pyrokinesis and Matron targets that dont get played the same turn.

LED should always remain in the deck and never under any circumstance be sideboarded out. Often a resolved and activated LED will just win you the game. Thats the difference between the deck in Legacy, extended, and even Vintage. Vintage relies on 1-2 Bazaar activations and plays about a turn slower. Extended doesnt have LED. The combination of a discard outlet and a free manasource is simply so powerfull because it fullfills 2 of the three combo pieces you need to go broken.

Slow rolling is often the right play if it assures you resolve your LED. The mirror is very dependant not only on Leylines, but Chalice @ 0. Have people been testing the mirror much yet?? I've had it down for a while now. Its a reason Platinum Angel stays in my board as well..

The new Vintage Ichorid decks are actually running LED as extra discard outlets. They run 1 LED, which is trivial since LED is restricted in Vintage. We, however, have the luxury of a disgusting 4 copies, that does everything for this deck: a FREE One with Nothing + 3Mana + possible first turn wins or improved consistency of turn 2-3 wins.

Platinum Angel is pretty good in my opinion. People in general have artifact hate in sideboard, but if you're playing Ichorid, they'll board all hate out in favor of graveyard hate, and your Platinum should be safe from removal. Unless the opponent somehow keeps StP (which he should always board out for yard hate against Ichorid), Platinum Angel may just steal a win/draw sometimes.

I am a little disappointed with the list of Shadowmoor cards but there is one that may see a good replacment for Cephalid Sage in dredge:

http://mtgsalvation.com/shadowmoor-spoiler.html#2460
River Kelpie 3uu
Creature - Beast 3/3 Rare
Whenever River Kelpie or another permanent is returned from a graveyard to play, draw a card. Whenever a card is played from a graveyard, draw a card.
Persist
Illus. Jeff Easley #49/301

This card seems to be a God-send for dredge. It draws one when it is returned from the yard. Note that we usually use the second part of the card. Flashing back Cabal Therapy as a free spell allows you to draw, which inevitably means dredge. If you happen to flashback Dread Return, you get to draw and dredge as well. If they bolt this creature, it comes back for another turn activating dredge again (due to Persist: When this creature is put into a graveyard from play, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to play under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it). It may not be as explosive as Cephalid Sage, but with the synergistic build with graveyard recursion in the deck. This is amazing.

I think it might be possible to build a different version of Dredge using this card, which focuses on getting this card out fast via Dread Return, and then using the ability with Cabal Therapy/Dread Return/Ichorid/Nether Shadow/Ashen Ghouls recursion to allow for uncounterable free draws/dredge. It might even be possible for "manaless" Ichorid to work again. The important thing with the card is it says if you "play", so even if your spells get countered, the draw still activates, making it uncounterable unless stifled, but you can simply play a couple more flashbacks. Just a thought. I was just a little shocked they gave Ichorid something more even though this deck is already insanely consistent.

If you get to DR - you should win.
River Whelp (?) does not win you the game, so no go. I'll keep my combo as it is.

And vintage ichorid usually wins on turn 2. If it's built for it. Mine is, because our vintage is very combo-heavy and I need to be able to outrace them.
So legacy is not a turn faster, and a one-of LED sucks ass in vintage. You don't need it game one, and in game two and three, why the fuck? You have no combo in games 2&3 if you didn't go balls-to-the-walls. It does not rfg for ichorid or unmask either, so it's worse that chimney imp in the decisive third game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crz87

Flashing back Cabal Therapy as a free spell allows you to draw, which inevitably means dredge. If you happen to flashback Dread Return, you get to draw and dredge as well.

---

Note: this happens if you don't sacrifice Riverkelp itself to either Therapy or Dread Return. "When something is played"-triggered abilities will trigger upon you FINISHING to actually play something, i.e. after costs have been paid. A Riverkelp that's been sacrificed will not be around to notice the flashback spell actually 'being played'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crz87

Unless the opponent somehow keeps StP (which he should always board out for yard hate against Ichorid), Platinum Angel may just steal a win/draw sometimes.

I am a little disappointed with the list of Shadowmoor cards but there is one that may see a good replacment for Cephalid Sage in dredge:

http://mtgsalvation.com/shadowmoor-spoiler.html#2460
River Kelpie 3uu
Creature - Beast 3/3 Rare
Whenever River Kelpie or another permanent is returned from a graveyard to play, draw a card. Whenever a card is played from a graveyard, draw a card.
Persist
Illus. Jeff Easley #49/301

This card seems to be a God-send for dredge.

---

First: Stp can really screw you, of course they dont board it out.. Especially multiple STP can screw you.. STP on Ichorid.. (when you dont have "combo-kill")

Second: the card is not better then Sage, when you can D Return your Sage, you normally have more of the half of your deck in the grave.. So drawing 3 cards is enough to go for the win..

I gonna play a tourney with this list tomorrow:

3#Cephalid Coliseum
4#Gemstone Mine
4#City of Brass
1#Undiscovered Paradise *

4#Ichorid
4#Putrid Imp
4#Narcomoeba

4#Golgari Grave-Troll
4#Stinkweed Imp
2#Golgari Thug
1#Darkblast

2#Dread Return
1#Cephalid Sage
1#Flame-Kin Zealot

4#Lion’s Eye Diamond
4#Cabal Therapy
4#Bridge from Below

4#Breakthrough
3#Deep Analysis
2#Careful Study

// sideboard

4#Gamble**
4#Chain of Vapor
2#Pithing Needle***
2#Chalice of the Void***
1#Contagion
1#Ray of Revelation
1#Ancient Grudge

* Because of the Gambles in the board, I need more non-blue mana.
** I play them instead of Leylines, because the first 3 tourney I played with Ichorid, I never boarded them in (ok, in the Mirror, but then he bounced him with a copy of the Chain I used on his Leyline), Because when you play against goblins/affinity, you want to see him, but the only thing they do, is protect your bridges, so I better want to keep other cards for more speed/consistence (like the D Return package, when you keep that in, its very hard to board uit 8 cards..). Boarding in Peedle and COTV against Crypt is the only thing I do here.. So holding the Leylines especially for Ichorid is very random, cause I almost dont see that in my meta.. Gamble is soo good, cause you play your hate 5 to 8 times.. And it can even find LED/Breakhrough, when you have hate in your hand.
***I want to play 3 Needle and 1 Cotv (keeping1, cause its also good against combo (and I can search it with Gamble)), but I only have Needle, and a friend also has only 1 who he doesnt use, maybe I can find the 3rd tomorrow.

You hear from me how its gone (the meta is good, last time there were 130 players, and I went 12th, and it was with a suboptimal build, cause the cards I bought didnt arrived, he sended me the wrong ones..)

Has anyone been running blazing archon? I played against it in the mirror in my last tourney, and i would have lost if I did not have a bounce of it. Now that ichorid is a DTB we might see more of it popping up, and he could become a better side card.

He is also useful against gobs, red thres, and dreadstill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maagler

Not that ichorid is a DTB we might see more of it popping up, and he could become a better side card.

He is also useful against gobs, red thres, and dreadstill.

---

Not a DTB? Did you notice what thread your posting in? I still feel Platinum Angel is the better choice since combo decks win without the combat phase.

She's even kept me from decking myself which Archon can't do.