He meant "against".
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He meant "against".
Yeah, with affinity, I figured that I needed to just draw 3sphere, moat or/and humility. Not bad odds really, but I consider relying on three cards to be akin to leaving something up to luck mroe or less. No biggie. Sometimes I am a lucksack, sometimes I am not.
The enchantress match was spirit-crushing though because it didn't combo, it swung...all the cards required female art on them in order to be included, excluding lands. It ran vampirisms and shit like that. It was brutal and sad. Either way, it knocked the chip off of my shoulder that undefeated in matches until affinity and jankchantress respectively.
So. Idea, for the sideboard. Voidstone Gargoyle. Looks useful: can name Deed or Explosives; can also name damn near anything else: Burning Wish / Shattering Spree / Reverent Silence, Serenity (though unfortunately not so well if it's already in play), Krosan Grip, Life from the Loam, Tendrils of Agony, Sensei's Divining Top (FWIW), Tombstalker, Aether Vial -- whatever. Also, beats for three. He's a creature, but they're boarding out removal, right? (Not such a great combo with Humility, alas, albeit awesome with Moat.) I'm not a huge Stax expert, but I like this idea a lot.
I'm also really liking the new Moat + Humility + Elspeth builds which are less dependent on Armageddon. One card combos are best.
The gargoyle sounds like worth a try(I typo'd "tron" originally haha) in non-humility builds, but I wouldn't want to risk running him in the humility/moat variants.
On a testing note, I have been having a hard time find opponents that I can really have reliable test results with because there are so many scrubs on mwsgames...I played, like eight matches or something last night and the most promising match up was against /drumroll on mono-blue dreadstill /cymbalsmash on BUT it turned out that it was some stupid version that ran chrome moxes, diamonds AND(!!!!) lotus petals. Dude that was playing it drew over half of his deck and never drew a dreadnaught or trinket mage, but had no problems drawing all the dazes, fows and standstills early(I mean all of them). Either way death came slow and painfully on the back of a factory that he apparently had no answer for, in the second game he eventually just scooped and disconnected.
I also played against what I surmise to have been some sort of BGWu aggro deck because he got a thoughtseize off on me and had other discard to boot, but I got a first turn chalice off on him while I was on the play(for one of course) and followed with a 3sphere on my next turn and he was like "U wn gg" and dc'd. WTF?!!! I hate these nubcakes!!! This didn't even happen when I played draw-go or stasis.
Good ol' mws testing.
I've tried Gargoyle before in the old build, and he went straight out. Just like Windborn Muse, he's simply too vulnerable. Also, costing :3::w::w:, he's just not worth the trouble. I must admit I haven't tried him in combination with Moat, but with Humility in the same build, again, probably not worth the trouble. I really rather play Pithing Needle.
I've finally gotten to some testing myself. I must say I'm pleased with how it went. It's certainly not perfect yet, but we're probably on to something here.
My first test was against Dreadstill, the deck I played against was an exact copy of Roodmistah's list. This match-up has become so much easier, and post-board, the boils are really awesome.
The other testing was against Aggro Loam. This match-up is still unfavorable, but I must admit I made quite alot of playing errors. Or the opponent just made really good plays:
I'm on the play: Mox Diamond, Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb (or City of Traitors don't recall well), Chalice@2 (shutting down Burning Wish, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf and ofcourse Life from the Loam). I thought I had him. He ends up with Engineered Explosives@0 blowing up my Moxes and Chalice, and he wastes my double land. I had nothing on the board anymore and he still had 1 or 2 lands here, and what's worse...Life from the Loam. I'll try and fit that one under bad luck. In general I still have problems with Aggro Loam, but the chances have certainly improved. Once you have a Moat down, and he can't get Krosan Grip, all his biggies stay at home.
I must say I also like Pithing Needle in the sideboard. Ofcourse you must use it right and not name Bloodstained Mire or Wasteland with it, but Seismic Assault when playing against Aggro Loam. Duh :wink:.
All in all I feel flip and erb were right about upping the number of Moats and Humilities to 4. I'm leaning of getting an extra Elspeth too, because once you've lost her, it's very hard to kill your opponent.
The maindeck Replenish is just silly. It often just sat there in my hand, while I desperately wanted it to be a Moat or Humility. Guess what's going to happen to the Replenish slot :wink:. In the sideboard it's still okay though, I once had a real cool revival after a Krosan Grip :laugh:.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in the sideboard can be replaced I think. Perhaps for either Ajani Vengeant or Wrath of God probably.
I also stay with the Powder Kegs. They're also pretty awesome against Dreadstill, and they've also shown use against Aggro Loam. Against Dreadstill you set it to 1 and leave it there. Pretty good insurancy. Against Aggro Loam you just let it sit at 2 and if needed you can pop the third in against Terravore or Countryside Crusher.
The number of Armageddons can indeed be dropped to 3-4 instead of the traditional 4-6. 5 or 6 is probably too high, but Armageddon is still a huge bomb against alot of match-ups. Not against Aggro-loam, mind you :wink:.
I did experience some trouble producing the second white mana sometimes. I'm not sure how to juggle around with the manabase though. An obvious adaptation seems to replace the singleton Kor Haven for a basic Plains. However, in testing the singleton Kor Haven has repeatidly saved my behind, so I'm unsure of cutting it. I'm already running only 6 double mana lands, so cutting there seems to be asking for trouble too. I also run only 3 Wasteland and 3 Mishra's Factory, I have no intention on cutting the Factories. Perhaps cutting a Wasteland will provide the answer, but I'm already running less Armageddons. The last option is to just put in the extra Plains as the 61st card...
On Boil:
I'm still hesitant to pick Boil over Defense Grid for the SB. I feel it comes down 2 turns too late in comparison. In builds that still feature Ghostly Prisons, mind you, Boil would be my spell of Choice. But making your opponent's 12 counterspells dead draws on turn 1 and proceed resolving anything feels just smoother than:
...Us dropping Chalice@1 -> Opponent dropping Goyf -> Us playing Boil -> opp. dropping Mongoose -> us getting Moat countered.
In a nutshell: We resolve all our spells = we win against most blue decks, no matter what.
We destroy all (or 90% of) their land = not gg yet.
Okay, it's 330 am where I am at and just finished an mws mini. Not a big one because eternal players are kind of few and far between on mws. In the end, I'll assume the shuffler was the biggest reason for me losing to a standard format deck with duals, counterspell(the original) and fow in it. I had to mull down to five in all THREE games and it was absolutely brutal. I still won one game at least, but yeah. Very sad. He was playing some sort of janky 5c deck that is all the rage in standard right now.
ANYWAY on a non-/wrists note:
I played against a 4c countertop deck and this matchup was interesting. I presume that he was running white for swords, seals and bigger explosives only...unless his deck was completely garbage.
Anyway, the games went something like this:
1st game was sort of slow. The mws god seemed like it was going to be nice and I was on the play. I got the ability to do a first turn CotV, so I went for it. It got a big fat FoW. M-L folks(with a few big exceptions) seem to like dreadstill more than anything, so that is what I figured I was against. My opponent played conservatively with his lands initially. I wasn't sure what he was playing really because all that I saw in the first few turns of his was a swamp, island, a bob and a delta. Anyway, it turned out he was playing said deck and the game was won on moat's back. Yay. Good times for me. I still didn't get to see what he was playing really because he scooped as soon as I got everything but a humility out...BUT I saw a tropical and a tundra, so...yeah.
2nd game was pretty interesting. He was on the draw, had a sort of do-nothing hand and my hand was about five cards at the start, so I didn't feel like pushing my luck with another mull. I dropped land and said go for a bit and managed to lure out his one and only fow that would see his hand that game with an early crucible...weeee.
Eventually the board looked like: me several land in hand, numerous in play, a moat, o-ring on a cb(was counter bait for the crucible) and crucible out and a mox. He had a top, two bobs and four lands, with four cards in his hand. I had seen what two cards he had drawn and both were lands, so I decided to go all in with a geddon. The geddon worked and blew his shit up. Then I got a trinisphere out and a smoker out while he was recovering still. I had another geddon in hand and was planning on making him die from bobs, but the stack happened first. He ended up scooping to an Elspeth before he got locked though.
Either way, I'll be more glib about my thoughts on the deck when it isn't 4am, but I am pretty luke-warm on the boils at the moment and am going to be looking into increasing Elspeth and moat numbers.
Here is the build that I was rolling with:
Skegstax
// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [NE] Kor Haven
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [R] Plateau
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
8 [4E] Plains (1)
// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Spells
3 [LG] Moat
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [TE] Humility
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [B] Armageddon
4 [US] Smokestack
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [UD] Replenish
SB: 3 [8E] Boil
SB: 3 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 4 [FNM] Aura of Silence
Right off of the cuff, I'm thinking -3 boil -1 plateau -1 geddon +1 moat +1plains/wasteland +3 defense grid and MAYBE -1 smoker +1 Elspeth
I hate feeling like I have lost the game almost when one Elspeth gets a FoW straight off the top of my opp's deck, but in the same token, I hate feeling like some wild hair up my opponent's ass in the form of a seal, disk, fourth random splash colour etc, can make my invulnerability to creatures collapse like a Tai hooker after an oil tycoon convention. Smoke stack is a great must counter(at least in the minds of some opponents) and a win-con in many matches...it may seem win-more, but there are lots of games that I have lost because one wouldn't stick...in fact that is why I lost to the aforementioned shitty standard deck. The geddons are creat sometimes and subpar others with the new approach, so maybe I will do some CRAZY changes and test more tomorrow...
(I.E -2 geddon +1 Elspeth +1 smoker +2 sb geddon or something)
If breaking away from the traditional Magus builds, how vital is Moat? I have all the cards to play this "Dutch" build, except for the rediculously expensive Moats.
@armageddon (ofcourse this only applies to Dutch stax)
First of all cutting armageddons would probably be ther right choice..In my testing, I have cut it down to 3 and never missed them at all...( I might even cut them out completely)
@Loam,
Any version that runs loam is problematic to us, we usually have problems with these variants.
@ Moat and HUmility numbers,
Since these are your replacements for magus and ghostly prisons, We would normally replace them appropriately. 1 for 1.
@ Replenish,
Yep their only good for sideboard against decks that would normally run Grips and disenchants. Because it only really brings back to play enchantment cards, I am not sure if these are even worth your sideboard space.
@ kegs
Their really worth the spot specially if you are expecting teegs, which are absolutely annoying for stax. They too are quite versatile althought they are slow as well.
@ Boil
I have never tested boil, however I have always wanted an added out vs blue. Defense grid is good since it comes a turn earlier, but at times, it already feels like trinisphere does that already. If you are going mono white, significant advantage of boil vs defense grid has never been proven or even argued about.. Even the red splash is not needed at all.
@ Elspeth
Your right about elspeths number skeggi, I have actually upped the elspeth count to 3...as it is usually hard to dig for her as a win condition..
@ Arsenal
Moat is vital to Dutch stax. It has perfect synergy with humility, it prevents non flyers from attacking, protecting you and elspeth enough to buy you time to get what you need via lock or win via elspeth. Moat shuts down a lot of decks by itself. I can't seem to find another card that can replace moats sheer power, of controling creatures(of course this doesn't stop flyers). You cant combine humility with ghostly prison,as they will end up attacking elspeth (so this means changing your win condition too (which cannot be angels or creatures in particular because of humility)). In the dutch stax builds, it seems to focus on elspeth, thus protecting her is quite vital. Moats and humiliy does this job best. Other combinations of humility with ghostly or magus just doesn't seem to work.
@ Dutch stax over all
One of the biggest problems I have encountered with this particular build
as comparison the armageddon stax,is that we don't really have a good way to wipe the board clean of creatures. So creatures tend to just hang out and wait until their master(opponent) finds a way to get rid of either moat or humility. Swarms of 1/1's would kill you instantly. And a single flying creature will get to you fast.
This particular problem tends to make smokestack useless late game too or if not it would make smokestack take forever to get rid of his permanents-->> meaning it would also take you forever to win a match. This makes elspeth seem like your only win condition.
Bumping up elspeths count, might help this issue a bit.( gives you a faster way to get your win condition out)
Because of the problem we might actually need to dedicate some space for wrath of god, or some other board sweeper in the sideboard against swarm decks like goblins and the likes.
Comparing to armageddon stax, which would wipe the board clean of creatures with a resolved magus and armageddon. Magus alone also tends to keep people from playing more creatures, to be able to free up their mana making them play fewer permanents, which actually is good for smokestack and the prison theme
There may be a lot of comparisons that we can make and learn if you actually played stax for quite some time, as you will actually see the strength and weaknesses of both builds. For now, armageddon stax has better overall synergy as a prison deck and for smokestack itself. Dutch stax however has better raw power defensively .
This however only goes by testing against goblins and angel stompy variants. I am unsure if it goes the same way for other match ups.
Why wouldn't you include some number of WoG's as well, since Magus and Prisons are leaving, kick out the Geddons as well, and replace them with WoG's, 1 for 2, and then you could have two open slots, even. Or, 2x Geddon 2x Wrath wouldn't be entirely horrible, just completely random...
Personally, I don't see why you think you need Humility.
Also, the WW in a lot of cards could be a bad idea...Just saying.
WW in cc:
Elspeth
Moat
Humility
Wrath of God (if you listen to me, anyway...)
Both of the cards you are dropping for Moat and Humility contain only a single W. The cards you are adding cost an additional color to their cost.
With there only being a few flyers played in the metagame, I don't understand why you don't just add Moat and drop Magii out of the game, leaving Prisons and Armageddons. Prisons do something for the Ichorid matchup as well as the Zoo matchup. Humility doesn't do a whole lot for you when you are staring down 14 goblins or on their turn one or 9x 3/3 hasted goblins on their turn two and you only have a humility. Prison would save your ass in both of these scenarios, and they are common scenarios for both TES and Ichorid.
I think Elspeth is good. Great even, for this list. Humility is underwhelming when a moat is out, and I think an O-Ring solves your problem for the creatures that fly over it (those creatures being what, Tombstalker, Sea Drake and Exalted Angel? I think you can handle them. Reprisal even works) Heck, You can out-race those with a elspeth'ed Factory. I'd even be tempted to run 3x Elspeth.
Pce,
--DC
Having a few flyers in the metagame is actually what makes moat better than magus, However, I have already answered this a few times before, ghostly prison alone doesn't protect elspeth as they can attack him without paying 2. Humility doesn't protect her as well but it makes those 1/1's easier to block and to take.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
About TES and ichorid, it is already a good match up for us. This lowers a bit when replacing ghostly prisons but generally its still good with or without prisons, as it is not really our key card agaist those combo decks. Oh and I don't get the part where 9x 3/3 hasted goblins attack you when humility is out...haste? 3/3? humility...(this doesn't matter though 9 1/1's gobs will hurt)
How can it be underwhelming?It specifically prevents any creature from attacking at all. Creatures with no ability, no flying... can't attack. Because of moat and humility combo, which is actually all the creatures in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
About tombstalker, sea drake and exalted. In paper or in theory it seems easy to handle. In reality however their not. Single creatures Get around ghostly prison. When Equipped they are going to really hurt. Once in a while we would get an O ring to handle them, but this is only if you are planning to run 3 or 4. Stompy variants has a lot of creatures that can chew on your life fast by itself(a lone creature). And no, You cannot out race stompy variants. They were specifically designed for speed. While Stax was designed to be prison.
Considering one of the biggest factors in choosing to test this variation for me was to improve upon getting destroyed by one big dude or one dude holding some equipment, I will never remove all of the armageddons. The decks that I am wanting to have better matchups against, armageddons are awesome on their own. Having wrath against one dreadnaught/goy/angel/something with equipment on it is shit. If I was going to add wrath, I'd remove a copy of the four rings or something or run them in the sideboard. One of the huge factors in my destroying the decks that I sought/seek to destroy with testing this build is having a fucktonne of "must counters" I'd much rather draw a geddon against a landstill deck or even thresh, considering their small number of lands.
Either way, I am not feeling too inclined to bother with wrath when I just added another moat and Elspeth. Wrath might get into the sideboard eventually, but in almost every single first game of a match that I have played, I have always been happy to see my geddons. Another factor is that most decks don't have a way to remove a moat or humility in the first game anyway.
I'm starting to doubt this too.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
Wrath of God is going to be in my sideboard as a 2-of at least. Dutch Stax was designed to handle decks with a single beater. When you face swarms, Armageddon Stax used to handle them with Magus + Armageddon or Prison + Armageddon. Magus used to be the key factor in the evolution from Angel Stax to Armageddon Stax to cut Wrath of God. While we're not as vulnerable as Angel Stax, my guess is that Wrath of God is a good sideboard card indeed.
Ofcourse, whether you favour the original Armageddon Stax or Dutch Stax is meta dependant. If your meta has alot of Aggro Loam, Dreadstill or Team America I would go for Dutch Stax. If there is more Zoo, Goblins or Ichorid, Armageddon Stax is probably better; however, keep in mind Dutch Stax handles Zoo, Goblins or Ichorid better than Armageddon Stax handles Aggro Loam, Dreadstill or Team America. So if there is a tie in the meta, I'd still lean towards Dutch Stax.
About dropping Armageddons: I really think the minimum is 3. The card is still a real hard bomb. The prison of Stax, the Chalices and Trinispheres still depend on an Armageddon. Without it, they can still cast 3cc+ spells. Dropping Armageddon for Wrath of God maindeck would be a big mistake (well in my meta at least, if all you face are Zoo and Goblins, you should probably just stick to Armageddon Stax rather than Dutch Stax). Also: most decks are more land-dependant than creature-dependant. There are only a few which aren't: TES, Belcher and Ichorid. But combo has problems with Chalice@0 or Trinisphere already.
Yup yup on the geddons: they give you a way to deal with all of the creatures on the board with a ramped-up smoker, which this deck can do handily thanks to Speth and Flagstones as well as other more obvious uses.
I have been sort of "meh" on the replenishes, but haven't had a chance to use them yet. Should I save myself the trouble and just replace them with wraths while I am ahead? If only there was an artifact that could just sort of shuffle artifacts or enchants into my library...lol.
Yeah, I'm going to replace them for WoG for sure. Instead of reviving potential creature-cripplers, you just kill the creatures. It broadens the spectrum of potential a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
There is such an artifact: Feldon's Cane, Reito Latern, Soldevi Digger, Thran Foundry. But I wouldn't go for any of them :wink:.
Yeah, I thought about digger, but needs a shuffle effect to accompany it and the others are all one shots.
Maybe I am just a sadist/not playing the deck optimally, but in the dreadstill and numerous other pseudo-control/aggro matches smokers are pretty much my chief tool for victory besides 'geddon.
I hate the idea of splashing blue and won't, but boy do I wish academy ruins has a white mana in its cost instead of a blue =/
@ armageddon
As I said, I was only getting to test them against angel stompy variants and goblins. Which wouldn't really care as much for the land unless you had a quick lock to slow them down. Having them at 3 is still the safest choice.
@ Mordel
Why would you want a shuffle effect for artifacts and enchantments?
I feel find of odd explaining this, but...
If I am putting things on the bottom of my library with something like a soldevi digger, I will want a way to shuffle them into my deck other than sacrificing flagstones.
Digger is sub par even if there were several incidental shuffle effects beyond flagstones, but it would be pretty pointless to even bother with it if there was only three ways(not counting enablers for sacrfice etc) to get those cards somewhere other than the bottom...no?
Mistveil Plains was thought to be a card that could be played, but through testing the come into play tapped and the lack of shuffle effects made people not play it anymore
Not being able to be used unless you are already on the way to winning is a strike against it too.
Edit: Testing on mws is really starting to get annoying because I am only finishing one out of three matches. The most irritating thing is that I don't get to see how games turn out against stuff like landstill when I get good, but not auto-win hands like the one I just got earlier:
Crucible, Plains, City of Traitors, Mox Diamond, Armageddon, Trinisphere, Elspeth Hot Knight Bitch and I was on the play!!!11
I rarely get to enjoy these hands or see if they are actually auto-wins still when my deck lets me down. This is really starting to piss me off.
This is my new tweaked list...
// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [NE] Kor Haven
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
9 [4E] Plains (1)
// Creatures
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Spells
4 [LG] Moat
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [TE] Humility
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [B] Armageddon
4 [US] Smokestack
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 3 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 2 [5E] Wrath of God
I find myself not sideboarding very often, so maybe the wraths and o-ring will be changing that. I am strongly considering adding three more focused affinity hate cards...maybe in something that splash damages other shit too, like suppression field or something.