Why would Squee be a bad topdeck in Survival? That might be so when there's no survival in play but even then it's less a bad topdeck than Lynx. It still has a power of 1 and you can use it as a blocker each turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
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Why would Squee be a bad topdeck in Survival? That might be so when there's no survival in play but even then it's less a bad topdeck than Lynx. It still has a power of 1 and you can use it as a blocker each turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
Unless you are not even playing red, like majority of current Survival builds... Being a bad topdeck is a serious issue for a card, but doesn't cross the card out immidiately. Discard spells are a bad topdeck quite often, yet they are played in almost any black deck (not like black is the strongest color or anything, but thats a different topic). Searing Blaze is a very strong early play but probably belongs more to Slight than Zoo. In Zoo it seems viable but situational, which points in the direction of SB, which in turn is probably better used by something else?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
Hello,
at Saturday is Legacy in Frankfurt and I wanted to play this build:
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
1 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
1 Price of Progress
3 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
At the moment I am not sure about 3 Chain Lightning, I think 3 are random for this card. I wanted to play the Gerry Nauer Zoo from Hanau German Magic, I saw him at the tournament and I liked the way this deck is created. I made the 8. place at this tournament (I am Sven S.) and now I wanted to play a little bit more aggro-control than my Zoo/Fast Zoo from Hanau. I would cut usually -1 Helix against +1 Chain L. but in my experience Helix is with 2 Library very very important. 1 Fireblast and 1 PoP are the finisher in this deck, it looks like a good split to finish the game. Do you think this build looks solid?
I would be okay with piloting that, except for the Scalding Tarns. Do you have Windswept Heaths to put in here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Svenyboy
Also, in my experience Chain Lightning is the better of the two when comparing it to Helix. Your list is more burn heavy than normal so you'll likely be wanting to end the game with multiple burn spells. At half the CC, Chain is better suited to your build especially when your drawing extra cards off Sylvan Library.
Right now you're looking a little too Sligh if you want to play a" little bit more aggro-control".
I have Windswept Heath but I think its very important to get always the basic mountain. I see a lot of builds running KotReliquary but I find cc3 is very hard to cast in a meta with a lot of Canadian Thresh builds. In my opinion he is to klobig and to slow. I haven't got sooooo much experience with the Library because I tested this card in only one tournament, but I know that -4 life can be a hard thing against other Aggrodecks so I think 4 Helix are necessary. The problem at the moment at this build is that you play a lot of Burn, Creatures and cards like Jitte what needs an other card to do something and the gameplan isn't really good at the moment. I think you have to decide between Fast Zoo or really Aggro-Control Zoo and my builds looks something like a hybrid. This is the reason why I asked some people who tested Zoo builds in many different variants and knows how good is Jitte for example...
Yes, I realize your build looks like a hybrid, and now I must ask, are you trying to stay hybrid or are you trying to make the decision between what you call Fast Zoo or the more controlling mid-late game version? I can talk to you about the Hybrid because thats the way I lke to play it (even though it's not the DTB version). Otherwise, only you can make the choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svenyboy
I think a typicall Fast Zoo is something like this build:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31237
I've played a lot of Burn in combination with the best creatures in Zoo. Fast and strong, Ive shooted the burn mostly to the head and not to creatues as removal. An exclusion is Merfolk and the Mirror.
An other list what is in my opinion an aggro-control Zoo is this:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31526
I think in this build you can't play really fast because you haven't got a lot of Burnspells. I think the pilot used the burnspells as removal and not as a "burnspell" thats the reason why he played Path to Exile.
In my opinion this list are very different. I have an other plan than Tom Ross build (or other Zoo list). Or what do you think about this differentiation about this lists.
@Svenboy: I wouldn't really worry about casting 3drops against Canadian Thresh. I tend to slow roll them anyway to not walk in to their early game tempo shenanigans. And they just can't deal with Goyf or Knight without 2for1-ing themselves anyway. 3 Chain Lightning isn't bad either, i think it's the right number myself, and it's the number I've always ran. And Kudos for running Jitte.
Also, a friend of mine Thor top 8ed the same 30ish man tourney i top 8ed with Countertop last week. Another win for Bailey's pimped out, highly opinionated, Zoo deck :)
What do you all find to be the appropriate number of lands to run? Is 20 enough? Or do you generally want 21?
I like 21 lands with 3-4 Fireblast because it's easier to support the second blast. But only with 2 or 1 + Sylvan Library are 20 lands enough. An other exclusion is if you run Canopys because you want to sacrifice it for the card draw and I would play in this kind of builds 21 lands too.
My current list is running 2 fireblast, 2 library, and 2 canopy.
I much prefer 21 lands to 20. I've run it both ways (And even 22) but I find 21 tends to be the perfect balance.
List:
Lands (20)
3 Wooded foothills
3 Windsewpt heath
3 Arid mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Horizon canopy
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Creatures(22)
4 Wild nacatl
4 Kird ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim lavamancer
4 Qasali pridemage
2 Woolly thoctar
Spells(18)
4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 Path to exile
2 Sylvan library
2 Fireblast
2 Lightning helix
This is my current list. I don't have a sideboard nailed down, as the sideboard changes with each tournament, based on the metagame.
Bant Survival is becoming a popular deck. I was wondering how people are side boarding for this match-up. Or how people are planing to defeat it considering it can bring out the Loyal Retainers into Iona on turn three.
Seriously? I thought Retainers were rare as cool drink in hell and already over $100 each.Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishLegend
Since when did a card that costs $100ish stop anyone from running it if its good?
You do not choose the cards - you are chosen by them!Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank The Tank
(Just applies for cards above the 100$/piece cap)
Is that a serious question? I mean, really? If people can't find or afford a card, they play without it. Obviously goyf is an exception, because he is required to play almost any deck competitively. Loyal retainers is not remotely needed to be competetive, so not many people will be willing to shell out $50+ for a niche card.
I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by beastman
It seems that this combo pushes Bant Survival that little last bit that it needs to go from an established deck to DTW status.
A discussionworthy card, but I think we should concentrate in this thread how to deal with it, and -infact- if we really need to deal with it.(appearance of combo, possibilty of combo to REALLY wreck zoo instantly etc.)
Bant survival was putting up solid results long before people started playing retainers. Don't get me wrong, the combo is sick, and I love it, I just don't think a whole lot of players are going to run out to buy such a niche card for such a huge price tag.
Plus, they found a card that fills the same purpose, that is much much cheaper... don't remember it, but they talked about it in the thread a few months back...Quote:
Originally Posted by beastman
hey guys anyone tried loam lion yet? the new kird ape in world wake? But I am thinking it probably doesn't work since the deck is mainly red vs white
I don't like it, generally a taiga is the ideal land to have on the first turn.
Ok, so if we compare Loam Lion and Steppe Lynx, the Lynx wins, right? He can do 4 dmg on turn two, where Nacatl can only hit for 3. And we really don't want to fetch a Savannah on turn 1 for the Lion, because most Zoo decks only run a singleton Savannah.
But what about Goblin Guide? Isn't He worh considering? Most Sligh lists run him and he's also capable of doing 4 dmg by turn two for only one red mana!
In my build the creature base looks something like this:
4*Wild Nacatl
4*Goblin Guide
4*Steppe Lynx
4*Tarmogoyf
4*Qasali Pridemage
2*Grim Lavamancer
2*Knight of the Reliquary
What do you guys think? Please comment. How many creatures do you run?
With Goblin Guides in the deck i would use way more burn to end the game as fast as possible, alot more like a Sligh Deck instead of a Zoo deck.
I agree. The issue you would run into is that on occasion Goblin Guide will give your opponent card advantage when they do hit a land. Even in a format like Legacy where most decks pack less lands, it is not good to give this advantage to your opponent since the format is so quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
I like loam lion, but the mana base would have to be adjusted for it.
@ Dr.Ag0n, I'd drop the KotRs, and replace them with two more GLavamancers.
That, and include a burn suite that's equivalent to a raging inferno.
I don't know about that. Without the Lynx's i'd agree, but if you run Lynx you're likely going to run more fetches which makes KOTR better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesarius
I do agree with needing 4 lavamancers though.
Why would you want to run 4 lavamancers? You rarely want to see them in multilpes, and as far as creature removal: they don't kill much.
I personally run 2 lavamancers nowadays, and even then I'm not certain how much longer they are going to retain that spot.
KotR with Lynxs ARE a must though.
I've been thinking about new cards to try in this deck lately, and I've decided that I am going to test the new creature from WorldWake that tutors for Equipments. I love Jitte more than anyone, and it's a body to go with! I'm excited and I'm hoping that this new creatures proves to be fruitful.
Excellent!
Even though I think the equipment tutor creature is a bit slow for this deck, I always enjoy people trying new techs and sharing the results on this forums.
And I love Jitte too!
Good luck with that.
Well i tend to play Zoo slow anyway, so it works with my playstyle. I'm not saying i won't headshot someone when i have the chance, but i like to think of Zoo as a efficient midrange deck as well, and i play it like that as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grillo
I just wanna try something new with the deck, and Jitte reads: you win the game if i get active, so i figured I'd try it out. I haven't been impressed with 4 Lavamancers, or Sylvan Library either. I love Library, but i usually use it on the weeks when control is present in mass. Otherwise I'm not too fond of it.
Playing Goblin Guide in a format with Brainstorm, Ponder and Top just seems foolish... "yes, I would love to draw an extra card every turn you attack me"Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
Quote:
Originally Posted by mchainmail
Yea, and thats why Goblin Guide is more of a Sligh creature then a zoo. More burn to do the job faster before they can get anything serious out of the Guides drawback.
That's true but as Rizso mentions, its more a sligh creature and it still does not put the lands into play. Which means that we can still outrace them. Even if they draw one card more every second to third turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by mchainmail
Goblin Guide just allows you to attack for six second turn if you play Lynx, too. And it makes Sligh even more straight...
Lynx's problem is that he's terrible at defense, and that in Zoo mirrors he's terrible as he tends to get removed with Landfall triggers on the stack. And running Lynx makes me want to go all the way: Lynx, Plated Geodude, Vinelasher Kudzu, KOTR, Scapeshift, Flagstones of Trokair, etc.
Lavamancer's problem is that he can shrink your Tarmogoyf, and multiples is a pain. And KOTR's problem is that he's yard dependent, meaning running him, Goyf, and Lavamancer all together makes you graveyard dependent, and makes yard hate good against you.
So there's an argument here somewhere for Kird Ape and Woolly Thoctar and even Loam Lion and other guys who don't get worse when your opponent wrecks your yard.
Ditto. I've argued all over this thread over Thoctar with Mr. LION and he has his advantages. So does KOTR. It's just preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
I've been against Lavamancer since this thread started, but i eventually got to running him. I've been getting less and less results with him, so i keep cutting copies one by one.
Hell, I've even seen Zoo players board out Goyf for Relic of Progenitus and things of that sort.
Yeah, I hope we never have to go into that again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
I still don't see why people want to play this deck without Lavamancer ;\ I know people keep saying they're unimpressed with his contributions, but I have difficulty figuring out how that can be. Granted he's not really the 1 drop I usually want to play on turn 1, but he's so ridiculously powerful that I've always found making him work to be worth it.Quote:
I've been against Lavamancer since this thread started, but i eventually got to running him. I've been getting less and less results with him, so i keep cutting copies one by one.
I've done that before.Quote:
Hell, I've even seen Zoo players board out Goyf for Relic of Progenitus and things of that sort.
I don't reccomend it.
I do agree that lavamancer needs to be in this deck. Hes there for removal, burning opponents to the face, and nerfs oppenents goyfs when you dont have one out. lol love that combat trick.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
I run 4 of him but i feel i pull him when hes not needed. What a good number to run? 3 maybe?
I always run 3, have for the last year and a half now.