Didn't end up being able to head to Indy this weekend for SCG; anyone there repping the onion burst?
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Didn't end up being able to head to Indy this weekend for SCG; anyone there repping the onion burst?
Running 8 reanimation spells vs running 4 + 4 burning wish isn't that bad in practice. I will miss TCruise from the SB, but it's probably fine still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkgobs
I totally agree Koby. Here is what I am rocking at side events this weekend... Stole Pomegranets latest Post Cruise changes... Thanks Pom!Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
http://s13.postimg.org/eb8vag63b/IMG...201_011429.jpg
Good looking deck and hope it ran well for you!
I played at SCG Indy and while starting well with a 5-0 record, I finished the day losing four matches in a row, all in three games. I can jot down some game notes if anybody is interested in how the tournament went. Round five I had a feature match on the SCG stream if anybody wants to watch. I didn't play incredibly well, as I punted game one, but if you want to see my version of the deck do it's thing, it's there.
Personally I'd like to see some notes/tourney report.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pomegrant
Dropping a link to the SCG match for anyone interested (hope ya don't mind Pom)
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/618582124?t=4h35m04s
Long time lurker, just putting this up here. Would be interested in a short report as well, Pomegrant. I've been watching your streams; deck looks great!
Sorry this update took so long.
Round 1: Dredge (2-1)
I've played this match up a few times and I think in the abstract it favors us. Seeing that their discard is very minimal, the only way they win is through a combo oriented finish which a lot of the dredge decks have been taking out anyway. Game one is easy, but games two and three are more difficult since there is a turn zero Leyline of the Void. Game two I kept a turn one hand on the draw but it went off through a Lotus Petal so I spin the tires trying to cobble something together and die to zombies. Game three my hand is a lot more defensible as I'm able to Burning Wish for a Void Snare and then combo off.
1-0
Round 2: Shardless BUG (2-1)
I don't remember that much about this match but in general I like it. Game one their only real point of interaction is Force of Will, so I win that. Game two I believe I can't get under a Grafdigger's Cage and lose. Then game, I cantrip on one, my opponent has a Deathrite Shaman on two, and I make him discard and combo off. Some of the lists that are splashing white for more hate are definitely problematic but I think the Burning Wishes help for that still.
2-0
Round 3: RUG Delver (2-1)
I win game one. I thoughtseized something and went for a kill. Game two I lose when I try to go off turn one. He tapped out for a Delver and I had enough mana to play through Daze. So I decide that I'm okay losing to Force of Will and I still would get Griselbrand in the graveyard to try to go off again. Until he Surgical Extracts Griselbrand and I pack it in. I don't remember game three but I won so whatever.
I don't think RUG Delver is a good matchup and something I'm pretty afraid to play against. They have main deck Spell Pierce again and have the mana taxing elements that can just end a game on the spot.
3-0
Round 4: UWR Stoneblade (2-0)
I remember my opponent this round because he looked like he'd rather be doing anything other than playing a Magic tournament. In game one I Therapy Force of Will and see a Spell Pierce I can play into and then win. Game two he kept a hand of Containment Priest and Meddling Mages which all got swept up by Burning Wish into Massacre.
4-0
Round 5: Elves (2-1)
I get get the feature match against somebody I'm pretty certain is playing Elves. It's nice that they gave me an easy match up especially because I wasn't going to play well. Game one I fizzle (which becomes a theme during the rest of the tournament), and I think that I keep a Shallow Grave, so I can Therapy myself for Emrakul then attack, but I kept a second Burning Wish instead. So, I try to go on some real convoluted way to win and end up in a game state that I'm not comfortable playing in. At the time I didn't want to Burning Wish for Pyroclasm because I felt that him gaining life from the Scavenging Ooze was bad for me, but it was probably the best play regardless. Games two and three end up being good for me with some nice draws.
I think the Elves match up is good, as most combo decks, just because of our speed. It's easy to get under Elves and they don't have many sideboard cards that matter.
5-0
Round 6: UWR Delver (1-2)
My opponent plays turn one Delver off of a Tundra so I'm feeling pretty okay. Some of these UWR Delver decks don't play a full four Daze and don't often play Spell Pierce in the main deck. I therapy for Force, which he didn't have, then combo off. Game two is where I get really unlucky, as game three he had the nuts and I would never have won. I'm playing slowly because I'm assuming he's boarding in Containment Priests and/or Meddling Mage and I wait for him to make the first move. He plays a Stoneforge Mystic and I use discard to rip up the equipment then I make 12 Goblins through Empty the Warrens. He is at 19, then bolts one of the Goblins. He draws an obscene amount of creatures this game, something like 6-7 which lines up really well against the Goblins and I can't find enough pieces to Griselbrand him. Game three he had Force of Will, Daze, Spell Pierce, two Flusterstorm, Clique, and a Containment Priest so I was never going to win.
5-1
Round 7: Sneak and Show (1-2)
Game one Sneak and Show doesn't have much counter magic so I combo off and call it a day. Game two I get unlucky again. I have Emrakul in my opening hand, so I want to try to craft the game in such a way where I want him to feel pressured so he just has to Show and Tell his Griselbrand to dig for counter magic. I eventually get him to do this and now he's staring down an Emrakul with his Griselbrand. He's priced into drawing and he has a Sol land untapped so he needs to find three Lotus Petals and a Sneak Attack and an Emrakul to win, which he obviously does and kills me. Game three, I have a turn two kill, so he naturally has Grafdigger's Cage. Then without any sculptors he find the perfect draws of sneak attack emrakul and griselbrand plus enough mana to kill me on turn three.
I generally think this is a good match up and I hit a variance low, to be honest. We know all about how sometimes you dig with Griselbrand hoping to hit when it's low chances and my opponent got there.
5-2
Round 8 : UR Delver (1-2)
I'm feeling the pressure now, as I thought I was going to cruise into day two and now it's questionable. Game one my opponent game a creature and bolt heavy hand which amounts to me storming all over the place. Game two, he sticks an Eidolon of the Great Revel on two and that is pretty hard to beat. Game three, I got off on turn one and fizzle. In 21 cards I needed to hit either one more Lotus Petal or a Dark Ritual to end it and it just didn't happen. I try to set up the game state to try to kill again but he plays Grafdigger's Cage and battles back. It comes down to a really close game in the end that requires him to top deck a spell to grow his Swiftspear and he gets there.
This match up is both good and bad. I feel that most Delver players will keep trash hands because they just assume that their deck will get them there. I feel the game ones are good for us as a lot of the time they will mulligan permission heavy hands just because of how the meta game shapes up. I'm not super afraid of their sideboard but they always have their one Grafdigger's Cage because Magic.
5-3
Round 9: Infect (1-2)
For this match up, I'm not feeling great. I feel that both of our decks kill on the same turn on average with my deck being able to turn 1 while his can't. I feel the pressure of comboing early which is difficult through his permission. Game one, I Therapy and see he has no permission but he's kept a hand of no infect guys but has brainstorm. I figure I've got a bit of time but with no permission I'm going to go off, which is a great idea until I fizzle. By this point I'm pretty frustrated because I've fizzled a bunch and most of it comes from problems generating mana which my version is specifically built to be heavy on. He finds an infect guy so he goes in and kills me. Game two, he keeps a hand that has no infect guys again but has some flusterstorms and spell pierces that I can either play into because I can generate a lot of mana or Therapy. I win game two and I'm feeling a bit better but we don't have all that much time for game three. This is a pretty crazy game. He's got soft permission and no infect guy again, and I'm playing a more tradition Tin Fins game with two lands, two entombs, and some Shallow Graves. I'm just trying to force through my combo but I'm not really getting anywhere but that's okay because he isn't either. I'm only taking one per turn from a Noble Hierarch so it's fine. However, I'm starting to flood in a bad way and all I need to do is fine a reanimation effect. He finds a Blighted Agent so I know I'm not long for this world as he has two Invigorates in hand. He attacks, and even though he probed me an saw a Chain of Vapor, he goes in and give me the "good game" look and I vapor the Agent and get a bunch of draw steps to draw out of it. I'm getting so flooded that the turn before I die to this Blighted Agent, if I had drawn any non LED mana source I would have been able to hardcast Griselbrand. But, I lose and that's it.
5-4
This tournament was frustrating to say the least but I'm glad that I started so well and got a feature match (although I wish I had represented the deck better when it counted). It's easy to say I would have done better if the deck didn't fizzle on me so many times, but it's part of playing the deck. On the day I got a lot of free wins from my opponents not knowing what was going on, and even if they did, they often didn't have the presence to play around potential Wish targets. The reason to play a deck like this is to catch people off guard and get free wins, which happened a lot on the day. I feel great in game one, and as shown by how the matches shaped up, I think I can get there in one of the last two games. It just didn't shake out in a bunch of the matches, but in the four that I lost, I really felt that I was extremely close to winning all of them. Only a few times on the day I truly felt out of a game, which is much better than with other combo decks I've played in the past.
Right now, I don't think I'd change anything with the deck but I haven't played it since last week. If anybody has any questions about my tournament or matches or whatever, feel free to ask.
Hello to everyone! What do you think about using Abyssal persecutor in Tin fins' sideboard against RUG/Miracles?
"...he has a Sol land untapped so he needs to find three Lotus Petals and a Sneak Attack and an Emrakul to win, which he obviously does and kills me."
Pomegrant, just bad beats and variance gone wild, it was terrible to read, I was feeling your feels. Although I shouldn't talk I did something similarly ridiculous with three Lotus Petals the other day. It will swing back around to you buddy, don't worry! I sympathise, Lady Variance came back to haunt you in the latter rounds :( But still, shows the deck is gas when you go out to 5-0 ust like that!
While it feels like bad beats, it's easy to forget when variance swings in your favor. I think my big take away from the tournament was that there are still a lot of areas I need to improve in to pilot this deck to a truly successful result. I just need to keep working on the deck because I know it can get better. And I need to get better at Magic too so I don't lose games due to mistakes that I make.
I just hope a get another chance to play the deck soon at a larger event and get another crack at it.
Against RUG - sure. Although I think I might prefer Phyrexian Obliterator. Against Miracles... I don't think they have enough cards to bring in to take out all of their removal. Maybe though. I don't like needing to kill Persecutor to be able to win though - seems too conditional.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainactivenet
I'm thinking of building this deck on MTGO. I have been playing a slightly incomplete reanimator list. but I think I'd rather win the game the turn I play Griselbrand :laugh: I know that the deck seemed sweet when I faced it online.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pomegrant
Hey guys, I plan on playing TinFins more often because my meta is full of combo+Miracles+random nonblue decks such as DnT or Stompy something; almost no Delver decks and no casual stuff like Burn. Since ANT's most MUs are even or difficult (against Miracles), I want to slam some Fins locally in order to improve my combo+fringe deck MUs. Playing ANT mirrors is not the best feeling, although I can win the majority of the mirror matches.
Now, I seek for a juicy SB against Miracles without having a transformational board into DD or stuff like that. I want a nice reactive board that improves my chances against this deck.
Currently, I play a rather standard UBw version with the following SB:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Pithing Needle
2 Massacre
3 Silence
1 flex slot
I try to make room for the SB lands in the main but in contrary to ANT, I don't like them there.
Would be cool to read your SB techs against Miracles.
Depending on your build colors and amount of SB slots available here are some options:Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Meltdown
Thoughtseize/Duress
Defense Grid
Wipe Away
Flusterstorm
Vexing Shusher
Xantid Swarm
Force of Will
Daze
extra SnTs
Pithing Needle
Abrupt Decay
Divert
Disrupt
Boseiju is great but vulnerable to Wasteland. Discard effects are a catch-all and never a bad SB option but they take away only 1 counter each. Xantid Swarm can actually pull its weight because the opponent is likely to side out creature removals, but against non-blue decks with post-sb grave hate they are not worth the splash and side slots without other green SB cards. Defense Grid is slower than Xantid but a nice card in builds without green splash, if you can find the space for it.
TBH, what you should be running depends on their SB hate package. Wipe Away for split second and Pithing Needle against Tormod/Relic/Top is a nice catch-all package. But even then, you need one more card against opposing pithing needle/Rest in Peace which does not destroy your own Needle. Also, SB Containment Priest, Phyrexian Revoker or Meddling Mage can be a pain if unexpected. Pyroclasm or a similar effect may help.
Overall, you want speedy opening hands into g2/g3 and you should hope the opponent's grave hate of choice is not Leyline of the Void. Especially when you are running an Abrupt Decay build. So...don't side out too many proactive combo cards for reactive SB cards.
If there is not a lot of Containment Priest and/or Wasteland in the metagame, main deck "sol lands" + Extra SnTs in the SB is also a valid option without being "too transitional". "Extra mana" from the Sol lands helps you play through tax counters (Daze, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm), leaving the opponent with only a very limited amount of hard counters (Spell Snare is generally a miss against us, btw).
Conclusions
1) Counterbalance + top is very slow to get online against our fast hands
2) hitting a cmc 3 for counterbalance against SnT is not easy for them
3) opposing t1 Pithing Needle and t2 Containment Priest/Rest in Peace on the play are the real problems we need to deal with
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karhumies
Thanks for the reply. The main issues are Counterbalace Top + things like Cage, RiP. I think that I should move the two green duals to the maindeck in favor of Swamp and Island. Then I have 3 extra slots for Miracles, although I don't want to overload on anti-hate.
If they start with t1 Cage/Needle on the play, you can respond with t1 Engineered Explosives @1. I forgot to mention that card in my previous post.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
Here's my sb plan that I've been using forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
mb:61 cards
sb: 3 silence
2 surgical
3 chain
2 needle
2 massacre
2 serenity
Miracle/Countertop: -1 Reanimate -1 Goryo -1 Mox -4 Probe -1 Ponder
+3 Chain +2 Serenity +2 Needle
I use my discard aggressively, and sometimes you can just bust them early. I'm not a fan of our long game, since all it takes is a topdecked RiP to wreck all of the hard work we previously made.
In other cool news, check out these bad boys:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B_ixjpeUgAAOelR.jpg:large
Sounds nice. Since I usually play ANT, I went for Decays as my primary weapon against Miracles but now I guess that I will try your plan. Hence, I can switch back to basics main and forget about Bayou/Tropical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acclimation
I got my 1/2 set at GP Denver. They are pretty cool.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
I have my four since GP Milan :wink: and crushing players since then.
Greetings,
Kathal
Got some questions about Doomsday sb. Is it possible to side in just Shelldock part if we are sure that opponent won't let us play Tendrils route anyway? It's like 3 Doomsday, 2 Tops, Shelldock, 1 CoV/PN, leaving 4 Shallow Grave, 1 Griselbrand, 3 Entomb in the MB? I guess it's too fragile, but in this case we keep the option of onion burst on 1-2 turn, if our opponent can't draw gravehate. (will try it)
And - is there an option of Maniac win? I think, I'm just too bad at counting to 10 with Tendrils...
To lazy to write it down, so I just copied it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dziga Murnau
-If you have IU, LED, GP or SDT in play or hand you can add a chant/discard spell in for just its mana cost-
--Cantrip pile--
In Hand: DR, DD, LED, GP
In Play: B source
-->DR, DD
IU
LED
GP
SDT
LabMan
-->LED, GP resp crack LED for UUU, IU, LED, Top, GP resp crack LED for UUU, LabMan, activate Top for the win.
------------------------------------------------------------------
--Pass the turn pile--
-If you pass the turn twice, you can beat 1 piece of removal-
(U)(U)(1) + 2 life available post Doomsday
-->Doomsday -
IU
SDT
GP
LED
LM
-->pass the turn, Ideas Unbound, LED, Sensei's Top, Gitaxian Probe resp crack LEDs for UUU, Lab man, activate top for the win.
Greetings,
Kathal
I'm not sure what you mean by certain they won't let you play Tendrils? We run so much discard... But anyway, lets say it is. I don't see why what you suggest wouldn't work, however I would fear that you're diluting both halves of the plans too much. Seems like you're going to be relying on LDV a lot here. And if you're on a reanimation plan at all, I can't see it being right to ever have less than 3 Entombs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dziga Murnau
If you want to win with Lab Maniac, then I would suggest replacing the Tendrils in the Maindeck with Lab Maniac. You can win off of infinite draws with Griselbrand and Children of Korlis with Maniac just like tendrils, but is more vulnerable than Tendrils in the maindeck. There are some posts/ideas about 50 pages back on it if you wanted to search for it. If you're going to do that, you may consider finding room for a Chromatic Sphere in the 75 somewhere though to be able to win "removal proof."
Caleb D has vids going up with TinFins; figured I would share for the sake of sharing
Link to Youtube playlist
2 Children? 4 Griselbrand? 2 Mox?Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiSchafroth
Tormod's in the sideboard?
What am I watching?
Yeah, I wasn't crazy about some of the choices myself but I know folks are always trying different iterations of lists based on their personal thoughts/experiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acclimation
Trying new configurations is a good thing. I can see an argument for 4 Griselbrands. 2 Children seems odd though. I haven't watched the videos, but if Caleb was running Liliana's like he said he was on Twitter, then 4 Griselbrands make sense. Kind of like when I've run Careful Study in the past - if you're looking to discard Griselbrand as an enabler to supplement Entomb, then run more. Whether or not it's BEST... I don't know. Some of that depends on your sideboard plan as well.
Someone streaming online, which I am assuming you aren't doing if you're watching it :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Acclimation
Seriously though, nothing wrong with trying different card choices. I'm always excited to see people play fun decks on streams - it's like TWoo, only not nearly as brain-melting to watch.
I don't really get the Liliana angle, seems like it would be more suited to traditional Reanimator. Still, like I usually say: if your list is winning games, then stick with it. Anything that puts up consistent results is fair game for discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by .dk
Turn 1 rit -> lili -> +1 pitching Griz is a setup for a turn 2 combo with a form of protection (2 turns of discard if lili +1 before combo). It's not 2x Thoughtseize or anything amazing as far as that goes, but lili could be an option against heavy control like miracles. Landing her on turn 1/2 feels good against that imho.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
From watching, I also felt that the Liliana was pretty powerful but I think if you were attempting to play the deck for speed, it isn't the route you want. However, since the metagame has shifted more towards disruptive decks, Liliana could be a great choice in grinding out games. It can deal with Delver threats as well forcing them to discard their disruption. I'm not sure I am thrilled about using fast mana to cast a Liliana, but the way he plays the deck is much more dependent on looping the Emrakul for a kill. It's an interesting variation for sure.
i play the deck recently and donīt participate much in this threath but i will do more now fowerd! i play the tin fins/doomsday plan and it feells awesome, and thats because tin fins has an incredible matchup G1 against almost all the decks, and wins so much more with speed than with lilianas in my point of view! and now other question, do you guys think that tin fins can be a really good deck for big tournaments since TC is ban now?
ps: i m new to this deck but i play miracles (and other decks for fun in my lgs) for over 3 years
Rit -> Lili into T2 win is no doubt powerful. My concern is that the deck is just not really set up to grind. We run very few basics, and truly very few lands all together. I'm always very concerned about wasteland once the games go long as we can be pretty vulnerable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pomegrant
Again, I haven't watched the videos, but I believe (from a twitter conversation with Caleb) that he cut search pieces (probe, ponders) for Lili's. So, we have a reduced chance of finding more combo pieces if our disruption/protection isn't good enough. This also seems to be a bit of a challenge with grinding.
Lili can be a very powerful tool for disruption and enabling (particularly against Delver decks like you mentioned) - but it does change the build a lot. It might be the right choice in the current meta - just needs testing and tweaking to come up with an optimal list.
I'm not sure how powerful it is against Miracles though, as you're never going to nab Counterbalance with her.
The Youtube link is just him playing an old list. This past Twitch broadcast seems far more interesting:
http://www.twitch.tv/calebdmtg/v/3908151
RUG / BUG delver match up for my tin fins deck is really bad, do you have some ideas how play against cheap counterspells?
What do you think about Defense grid in sideboard? Or Liliana of the veil looks more interresting vs delvers?
Lots of discard.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
BUG is a terrible matchup for most combo decks - and even worse for this one. You have to fight through Deathrite, Discard, and Counterspells. Liliana certainly has some use to take the pressure off by killing delvers and deathrites. That could be right. Generally if BUG Delver is the best/most popular deck, I just don't play Tin Fins.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainactivenet
Defense grid... try it and tell us?
Depending what your definition of 'big tournament is' and comfort level it certainly can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancestral
See .dk's t64 at GP NJ
On paper I don't like Lili here. With 13/14 lands and access to mana post-reanimation being of critical importance, I just don't feel like it's worth burning an early Ritual for, or getting 3 lands together for.
T1 as a discard outlet? Therapy/Thoughtsieze are already in the deck for a reason, and assuming you had a ritual and the reanimation spell, a turn faster.
With limited mana, really I think she's just going to run into Daze more often than not.
There's more and more MD deathrite around combined with MD spot discard. What would be an elegant solution to battling MD Deathrites for game 1?