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I hate Chandra. She has 1 relevant ability and can't win the game. Koth has 2 great abilities from the start, and the ultimate wins the game (usually).Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbain
I'm going to test 2 in the sideboard to really push him. I think Koth/bridge lock can really sure up some matchups like DnT
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To answer questions:
I already explained sword in the board. It's somewhere in the past few pages I'm not looking it up.
Pyrokinesis is card disadvantage. Firebolt is card advantage that I can cast on turn 1 to kill their deathrite/delver etc.
Boarding is subjective. Many times I'll take tutors out on the draw so I don't have to fetch a plateau and risk wasteland and then bring them back in. I'll also do it when I want better spell quality compared to speed against a control deck. same thing with petals. I'll keep them in/bring them back in so I can punish their slower draw and catch them off guard. Sneak show I take out dead cards and bring in less bad cards that's all there is to it.
Aggro plans can stall when they get grisel into play despite resistance. It's nice to have another backup beyond jaya/koth even if it's three cards
Any other matchups I can give theory and boarding plans in general but nothing is set in stone.
I actually totally disagree with this. I've played both Koth and Chandra as one of's and have been much more impressed with Chandra. Both her first and second ability are relevant. There are plenty of one butt creatures that she kills and I've also been in the situation where I can still beat down under a bridge if my opponent has a big fatty out (eg Griselbrand). I know it's a corner case but it has happened. Against elves or death & taxes she is ridiculous. Also, along with top her second ability always draws a card every turn. That's as good as jace in the card draw department. I've had Koth in my hand too many times where it just did nothing. It has no defense and just dies to any creature based deck. Thus, he is only good in one or two matchups. I've actually taken to play one Chandra in the main after I played against the mirror and my opponent wrecked me with card advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish
To Jack, I would encourage you to try pyrokinesis. It's almost never card disadvantage because you are almost always taking out at least 2 different creatures. It's instant speed is extremely relevant, especially against elves. Firebolts are a very minor hiccup against that M. U.. Pyro can blow them out. And worse case scenario, you can play it on turn zero, eg against oops all spells or something similar.
I just it could be pointed at the dome/planeswalkers.
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DnT. ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish
I played it last night at my weekly tourney. We got in about 4 games, mainly because he beat me so fast each game. It should be said that he drew quite well in all instances (I.e., vial into mom and revoker every game).
I was excited to try out a card I have been trying to test for a while now but alas it never came up. The card in question? Wildfire emissary.
Protection from white; dodges swords, to big for bolt, no decay, name white for a TNN with fire breathing that can sneak under a bridge, carries equipment, and he is tutorable.
All that being said is he just a win more card?
Oh cool card! I would love to here if he works... Pro plow and a heavy beater.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbain
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Gonna play Jack's list tomorrow with almost the same board. Gonna feel good man
Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Yeah, what's funny is that after testing so many different cards in this deck and taking so many different approaches, I am only one land (basic plains for fetch) and 2 cards off in the main from what Jack played last week. I guess sometimes you just have to take separate paths to get to the same place. The list in general I think is very solid. What I most recently discovered is that the tops are vital and I went back up to 3. It's really about getting to your combo efficiently and quickly and top + welder + combo is really strong. People I play against online will still do everything they can to counter a painter when I already have a welder and grindstone on the board. I love the resiliency. This is the only deck I never get bored playing.
I just arrived in home now from a long training day =D
My results
2x0 Merfolk (with chalice in SB)
2x1 Merfolk (with chalice in SB)
0x2 Merfolk (with chalice in SB)
2x0 ANT
0x2 ANT
2x0 ANT
0x2 Belcher
0x2 Belcher
0x2 Belcher
Belcher sucks =/
Were these preboard games? Id focus more on sideboard games honesty
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Agreed. One of the comments that was made to me when testing against Dredge was "Test post sideboard, those are the games you have a chance". If you are testing against a deck that game one is a long shot or an instant loss, just test with the sideboard in.
Got top 8 at a 35/40 man tournament after losing the first round and drawing the third. Matchups went like so:
1-2 UG Infect (friend from the same car ride)
2-0 BUG
1-1 UW Miracles
2-0 DnT
2-1 Esperblade (or UWb Stoneblade)
2-0 RG Lands
Top8
0-2 Sneak and Breach, mulliganed five times in two games. The guy cut my deck like a pro. Began both games with a revoker on Sneak Attack but he had TTB both times like it was a joke.
Didn't take notes but I can put together a little report if there is interest. Didn't really make any blunders like in my last tournament, I just drew poorly to lose those two matchups.
How was the DnT matchup. This is one of the trickier matchups I'm trying to get a handle on... Especially games 2/3Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
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Well, my opponent wasn't the best. I played to my strengths and he gave me plenty of opportunities to get ahead or win. this particular match wasn't a challenge but in general you need to combo with protection or win with permanents they have trouble with like bridge, moon and jaya.
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Took 1st out of 25 players today - good enough for a Tropical Island and a bye for a local premium event.
Matchups were:
R1 BR Reanimator 2-1
R2 Merfolk 2-1
R3 Deat and Taxes 2-0
R4 Grixis goodstuff 1-2
R5 ID
Quarters: UWR Miracles 2-0
Semis: Esper Deathblade 2-0
Finals: BUG Delver 2-0
The deck was very good for this meta. Sideboard should always reflect current meta expectations.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
12 Mountain
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Grindstone
4 Magma Jet
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
//Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Manic Vandal
2 Sudden Demise
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
So many Magma Jets, so few welders.
Like the list however, glad you got some today
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Congratulations! Why do you have no fetchs in your list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
For what purpose..?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago
Top is normally an auto include. I expect he did not notice you did not have one.
Yes, no tops which leads to having zero reasons to play fetchlands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
No tops because they don't contribute to the "drop bombs starting from turn 1" plan.
Magma Jet is a mediocre burn spell but it comes with the ability to fix draws and kills Deathrite Shamans. Obviously it's a bad card in lists that play Sensei's Divining Top.
Welder is a must but one could have different approaches to the numbers. I play one to tutor on-demand. Maybe it makes sense to play more copies if you up the artifact count (tops).
So I wonder....
Do you guys ever wondered on, how Sylvan Library would be in our deck?
I'm aware that with multiple GW's and 2 SDT's, we can do, pretty much the same thing, and the interction with SDT and Chandra also does kinda the same, I guess...
But would we play Sylvan if let's say: it was red?
Guys, we must talk aobut "Stoneforge Package" in sideboard, again!! It's the true progress for deck!!!
Isn't it a little redundant in the deck? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by spector14
ahah! maybe, but if you want to improve certain MU using a "plan B", I would try to make it a little more solid!Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix4
I really like the idea of "Jack" (sword B / W), but it's still a 1x! why not try to fix the side?
maybe like this:
1- sword b / w
2/3-Stoneforge Mystic
1- Batterskull
I actually thought about adding 2 Stoneforge, 1 Batterskull, 1 Jitte in place of the 4 Firebolt. Think that might be a better plan B and better against Burn?
3 SFM, Bskull and Jitte have been awesome in my board.Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanS2k
HOWEVER. Against burn it's not so great. They board in so much artifact hate G2 that they just zap it. Going for a fast combo is just better.
I'm going to try a 1 of CoP Red. Hell we can always me painter red and never take damage from anything
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Going for the fast combo is always ideal but their artifact hate can also stops it. Most of their cards are like 1 for 1, except maybe Smash to Smithereens that can also deals 3 damage. So cards like SFM can be card advantage or at least be a chump blocker when needed.
Well I'm speaking from experience and not theory. So I'm pretty confident here that if burn is your concern SFM package isn't going to help much. It's normally a turn 3 at best BSkull and not swinging till turn 4. That's a lot of turns to have bolts being thrown at your face.Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanS2k
SFM shines in the typical fair matchups... Bug, rug, DnT, and batter skull is great vs miracles.
CoP or leyline of sanctity are your go to cards for burn. Otherwise your plan is just to remove moons, bring in any other from the side and cross your fingers.
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^Well, I would normally fetch for Jitte instead of Batterskull. It's a lot easier to cast and easier to equip. Batterskull can get stuck in my hand a lot of times. Against those fair match up as you mentioned, I would rather keep in my 4 Blood Moons...except DnT and maybe Miracles (on the draw).
If I were to play a piece of equipment for the burn matchup it would either be jitte or the r/w sword, as it gains life and protects the equipped creature. Batterskull is just too slow for the reasons above. Having said that, I also agree that equipment is crap against burn. If you are really worried about the MU, play leylines or CoP red or something like that. I personally like leylines as they are good against multiple MUs.Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanS2k
I have played with different stoneforge packages from time to time, and just don't love them. The only way I would play it is in an almost total transitional SB with chalice and trinisphere or some other prison type package.
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Just dodge other red decks, and life is pretty good. Don't lose your center and play bad cards to compensate for something that may not even be a problem. If you literally play against burn all the time then I would stick with CoP:R, through personal experience it has been worth it.
If I were to play a piece of equipment for the burn matchup it would either be jitte or the r/w sword, as it gains life and protects the equipped creature. Batterskull is just too slow for the reasons above. Having said that, I also agree that equipment is crap against burn. If you are really worried about the MU, play leylines or CoP red or something like that. I personally like leylines as they are good against multiple MUs.Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanS2k
I have played with different stoneforge packages from time to time, and just don't love them. The only way I would play it is in an almost total transitional SB with chalice and trinisphere or some other prison type package.
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If you're going to a small tournament or a meta where you're absolutely sure you'll face multiple burn decks, you can make room for 4 leylines in the board. Cut appropriately, you know what other decks will be there too if you play there a lot so you know what to cut.
Leyline is also not bad against hymn builds of Shardless BUG. It is worth the potential dead draws in that matchup and burn, but really no others.
A way you can make Leyline a safer play is to cut 2 simians for 2 more petals. You lose the surprise factor of REB + blast and open up a little vulnerability to counterspells, but really people aren't going to counter/stifle your petal very often. You also get more welder targets.
On another note, I've been testing a slightly altered version of Jack's build lately with a lot of success. I've cut Jaya and both bridges from the main for 2 more lotus petals for 7 fast mana total, and using the third slot for an extra magus (2 total). I like Jaya a lot, she is the ultimate tutor target on top of a painter, but at 3cmc she is dead in a lot of matchups in the current meta. This build is just mean in terms of consistently jamming blood moon effects turn 1 and 2. It goes all out on winning game one with a surprise blood moon or using the additional fast mana to get a turn 2 combo. The extra fast mana also means you can protect painter with a blast as early as turn 2 in most games. It's very high risk high reward, but if you lose game one you can revert to the safe control build for game 2 easily.
The biggest weakness of the build is it can't win game one against show and tell. Painter generally has a very hard time doing this anyway without quickly establishing welder + bridge lock, which it can't consistently do with only 2 bridges and 2 tutors. Accepting this and knowing that you can significantly increase your odds game 2, this build is very aggressive in every other matchup and has worked extremely well for me. I play in the Seattle area (pretty big MTG community out here) against a lot of T1 decks, so maybe that helps turn on blood moon more often. Free artifacts also make welder very happy.
Sounds almost exactly like the build I've been trying for a few tournaments lol
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=72704
It's been doing fine for me too but trying another new build atm, but not afraid to go back to this one again. When I get home I'll edit this with a certain play I did against an Omni Tell match up.
My board state that matters is 4 mana available Welder Grindstone and Sensei's. I've already countered a Force and 1 Show and Tell already. He Intuitions getting 3 Show and Tell and taps his remaining 3 to cast it. I have nothing of relevance in my hand. So I spin top seeing Blood Moon, Magus and a land. So I place the 2 red cards on top and grind myself getting the double moons and repeating into the land and a Lotus Petal. Activate top blind to rip a REB and weld in the Petal to counter the Show and Tell leaving him with nothing. Combo'd him out a few turns later Tormod's Crypting the Emrakul trigger.
This might be a bit too tuned for modo tournament practice room but I am planning on trying a MD trinisphere. With the high density of burn & combo (omni-tell & elves) I think the 3sphere can do some serious work. It is the most consistent way to win in my SB games so far. Only thing is what to cut for it. Was thinking about moving Jaya to the SB since I almost never search for her. Generally if you are untapping with her and a painter on board for multiple turns, you are probably winning anyways.
Anyone tried this? Might make this change for GPT Boston today. MD is same as Kap'ns otherwise.
Jaya in the main is great for dealing with troublesome obstacles that can't be targeted by blasts like emrakul and chalice for 1. It's also just a wincon in a bridge lock situation or against blue decks. However, game 1 is usually always weighted in our favor, especially if your opponent doesn't know what you're on. I always side Jaya in game 2 but I have started to like her less and less game 1, she's usually just dead in my hand, so I've moved her to the sideboard as well. At cmc3, 2r, and a full turn to take advantage of her ability she's just too slow game 1 when we're trying to surprise our opponent with a blood moon or combo.
Hi guys! this is my situation:
In a few weeks there will be a major tournament in Italy (expected at least 300 people) and I would like to bring R / W Painter, the list is the one who inspired me to Jack in which he finished in the top 8 last month! The expected metagame will be full of BGX (jund, Delver bug, bug control), a lot of miracle and as a combo there should be a good number of elves and ANT!
regarding the BGX we are already well in the main, however with regard miracle, ant and elves are a bit worried!
My ideas are:
MD
-1 Bridge +1 Koth of the Hammer (nice against miracle)
sb
-1 bridge + 1 Peacekeeper (nice against ETW and elves)
-1 trini +1 thorn of amethyst (about me, it's better against ant because we have more chance to play it in first turn than Trinisphere)
or there is always the crazy idea that tickles me in the side: Stoneforge pack that would play like this: 2 Stoneforge Mystic 1 Batterskull 1 sword B / W
removing from the side: 3 firebolt and the second thorn of amethyst
All of that is reasonable and has been tried tested and proven to work. Really depends on what you run into. I feel like we want 20 cards in a 15 card slot... So you just have to choose based on what matchups your expecting. You seem to have a good handle on that and a sound theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by spector14
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Oh man... So I said I was going to jam this deck at least once each week before GPNJ. That hasn't happened.
Whenever I started streaming, I did it so I could watch my matches, find misplays, and correct my mistakes. It turned out that people don't mind watching painter and those that did tune in to the stream were happy to point out any mistakes I made. I did play it tonight (after not playing it for probably a month) and streamed/recorded my last game against Deathblade. My play was fine in G1 and G2, but could still be improved. However, in game 3, I did my very best to throw away the game and the match.
If you would like, you can watch it here: http://www.twitch.tv/iamgnarles/b/571561683
As I had said above, I don't think I played poorly in game 1 or 2. The first egregious misplay happens at 36:10 : I drop a moon and do not play out my second city of traitors. Since I have one on the field, it is a way to sneak 2 into play without saccing the first. The next (which I am kind of embarrassed about) comes around 39:00: Our opponent is Blood Moon locked, but has a Stoneforge Mystic, Vendillion Clique, and a Batterskull out. I have a Koth at 5 loyalty and 4 mountains in play. Instead of getting the emblem, being able to kill Batterskull and clear the board the following turn (with my opponent moon locked), I decide to tick up Koth. My opponent kills Koth the following turn. However, even though we should have lost, I was able to find a Painter's Servant in the top 3 and win before I was beat into the ground.
Big thanks to Kapn, my buddy Zach, and a few other viewers (if any of you are on the source, let me know) for joining the stream and talking through some of the options and plays available. Again, doing this will help me get better and that was the goal of streaming.
Thanks again, everyone :)
Thanks for the answer!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish
The thing that I would like to understand is whether mystic package can replace 3 firebolts or if these removals are essential!
First, think about what each of those three cards are doing. Firebolt is an answer to most creatures seen in the format, which also gains card advantage via flashback. SMF answers a completely different problem, the opposite problem actually. It comes in against control decks as an alternative win condition. I wouldn't just find three cards to cut, and I also wouldn't just play a few different cards without having a great reason to change a deck/SB that is well tuned. In order to make it work properly you need to identify the problem you're having with the deck, and address it with changes to play style, increase your knowledge of troublesome matchups, and playing the deck regularly for practice. When you have those three steps down pat, and you know that there is a specific problem that needs addressing, then should you go about making changes. It's about having patience and diligence inside and out of the match. Imperial Painter is a deck full of must-deal-with cards, one of its biggest strengths. Don't forget your fundamentals!