Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic wreck folk. Vial in a SFM, then activate the SFM to put in a SoFI and start beating. Also, running at least 6 removal spells is good against them
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Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic wreck folk. Vial in a SFM, then activate the SFM to put in a SoFI and start beating. Also, running at least 6 removal spells is good against them
But you need to have Vials in your deck and i think vial is crap in DeadguyQuote:
Originally Posted by TossUsToLions
It sounds like if you want to beat Folk, you should run better cards like Thoughtseize, Vial and SFM. And learn to play around counter spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by novatinhu
i agree 100%. The deck that i am playing, which plays vials, isnt really "Deadguy Ale". I just posted this here because it seems like half of the decks in this thread aren't really Deadguy decks.
Results speak for themselves, this guy beat Folk twiceQuote:
Originally Posted by novatinhu
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...nsas_City.html
I played in a tourny this Sunday and there were 3 DeadGuy decks. This one guy was running 4 Aether Vials with 4 Vampire Hexmage. He also ran 4 Dark Depths. One game he attacked me with an indestructable, flying 20/20 turn 3. :( I wouldn't run this combo, but I was surely intrigued.
Old Combo is old :P
It was played out crazy like in extended last season. Its why DD went from dollar bin to 20 bucks overnight.
went to my first legacy-tournament today (both, with Deadguy and in general^^), 56 people (+/-2) and went 3-3. Not really amazing but I'm happy with it and would like some suggests to my list.
Played this
2x Plains
6x Swamp
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Duress
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Go for the Throat
2x Vindicate
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Sword of Fire & Ice
1x Sword of Light & Shadow
1x Umezawas Jitte
2x Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard
3x Deathmark
2x Duress
2x Diabolic Edict
3x Planar Void
4x Extirpate
Meta: I had no clue what to expect, since it was my first Tourney. From talking with Friends and searching the Inet I expected a lot of UGx, Sneak Show and Dredge, some tribal/zoo and a few Combo-players
My Expectations were fullfilled, got paired against UGR Sneak Show, Dredge (1 with, 1 without Led), Zoo with NO, UGB-Thresh and RG-Sligh. Tribals and Combo were there, but not as much as I feared.
Sideboard was designed to get dredge with early planar Void and Extirpate and UGx with Deathmark, Duress and Edict. Worked quite well, but I'm not very happy with no outs against Combo and hope you have some ideas about it.
Short Report about the games (sorry for the bad writing, english is not my first Language)
Marco with UGR Sneak Show
G1: He has Turn 3 Progenitus, I can't hit the third B for Gatekeeper
Boarded Edict for 'the Throat
G2: He draws bad and I can handle his threads. Gets beaten by Stoneforge+Jitte
G3: I get double Bob and reveal lucky while he Show&Tells Emrakul in. I play Nighthawk and he hesitates for 3 Rounds (I think) to attack. Both go down, all but 1 land of me were destroyed. I recovered with 2 Bobs+Top while he draws crap. Bobs took the victory on 4 life^^
2:1
Zen (hope i got the Name right) with Led-Dredge
G1: He dredged really bad and I beat him with Nighthawk
Boarded Planar+Extirpate. Out Duress, Hymn and 2 Inquisition
G2: No hate in sight, Turn 3 for 24 in my face
G3: Not proud of this, but I bought International Edition Scrublands a week ago, not knowing they were not legal in Legacy. Judge declared Loss and I was happy not to be DQed (again no bad intention on my side. I tried later to feel it through the sleeves, must have numb fingers, felt nothing. A friend of mine lend me a playset legal ones.)
1:2
Denis with Zoo+NO (or NoBant he was not sure^^*)
G1: I killed everything touching the Table but he had more creatures than I removal
Boarded Deathmark, not knowing he had NO
G2: Natural Order -> Progenitus. 3 Gatekeeper in hand, 4 Mana but no BBB -,- (second time)
0:2
Patrick with RG-Sligh
G1: Got burned to 8 then stick nighthawk, SoLaS and Elspeth and won
G2: He droped saying he don't think he can win the second
2:0
Sebi with UGB-Thresh (Friend ho lend me Scrublands and some more)
G1: He had everything, full load of force, stifle, Daze... Goyf+Moongoose= Kill
Boarded in Duress and Deathmark, no clue what left, think Vindicate and ???
G2: I had everything, Removal for the lonely Critters and loads of Disruption. Nighthawk kills
G3: Got nothing on the Table, Moongoose beats me to 13 without Thresh -,-
1:2
Richard with Ledless Dredge
G1: He got lethal on Turn 2/3
In Gravehate, out Discard
G2: Mull to 5, no hate, drop a top, upkeep next turn found Planar Void in it. He had nothing against it
G3: Early Extirpate on Bridge and Ichorid. Then follows a war of Atrittion as he throws Aquamoebe and Golgari Thug at me and I get rid of them. Jitte and Nighthawk won me the game.
Pros:
- went 3-3
- Nighthawk is awesome
- Deadguy has a pretty solid matchup against the whole "I cheat a fattie into play"-faction that is popular here
- went best in our car although I lost to Sebi
Cons:
- Tripple B is harder to get if you need it -,-
- I need defined Boardingplans^^*
- International and Collectors Edition are not Tournament-legal
hope you have some suggestions to my list
I recently built a variation to this deck for a friend of mine not knowing it was already an archtype. My build runs Thoughtseize over Inquisition, with PTE's instead of STP's. It also runs no Gatekeepers but runs Serra's avengers and Grunts with no Nighthawks. I'm also running four mother of runes. I haven't played it in any real tournaments but in testing it holds its own against zoo/fish, goblins can be to quick at times and ANT...welll ANT either wins or it doesnt anyway.
Leto, here's my thoughts on your list: Why no Mother of Runes? Mom+Equipment=win. With Mom, there's less of a need for removal since she makes such a great wall. I would drop the 2 Duress for +1 Hymn, +1 Vindicate. Lategame Hymns are much better than lategame Duress/Inquisition. Since you're lategame should already be strong with Top, Equipment, and Confidant, I would swap out Elspeth for Serra Avenger. Consider Snuff Out over Go for the Throat. Since you're not running Thoughtseize, the lifeloss from Snuff Out isn't a big deal compared to the tempo gain. Perhaps even change out the Gatekeepers for Mother of Runes; that way, you can add in Wasteland and the Mothers work well with the equipment.
So, you expect him to possibly pay 8 life all so he can kill 1 creature, assuming said spell resolves? This in addition to 4 Bobs, 8 fetches, and combat damage/shennanigans from the opponent? Yea, I miss Snuff Out from my MBA days, but we don't run it because realistically you don't want to hard cast it ever and drawing it off of Bob is essentially a game loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenpoe
@ Leto:
Sorry to hear that about your Scrubs. I almost did the same thing too, but luckily the store noted: "Not Tournament Legal."
I assume that your running Go for the Throat as a substitution for the x2 Vindicate so I won't mention anything in regards to that. However, I would suggest upgrading the IoK to Thoughtseizes. Really the lifeloss is something we can recover from, and being able to rip any threat would serve to help your combo MU as well as ripping other cards IoK can't, for example: FoW, Moat, Smokestacks, Humility, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Sneak Attack, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Progenitus, Ad Nauseaum, etc.
I would also suggest upgrading your SDT to 3-4 (my preference is 4, but it is a perfectly arguable point to run 3). SDT is incredibly synergetic with the deck. Including the SFM's, we run on average 11-12 shuffle effects, so SDT gives our deck a very good chance of fixing the draws we need. Not to mention minimizing the life loss from Bob is always relevant.
Mom is definitely something your going to want to consider running in place of Gatekeeper of Malakir. White has little if any efficient beaters, and a lot of our deck is varying types of removal so in a variety of your MU's you'll be wanting to stall out into the mid-game. Mom is perfect in that she acts as essentially an unkillable blocker (situations like Zoo where you'll name green to block 'Goyf and they burn/PtE her aside), or shielding other creatures to keep them alive/let them get direct damage with an equipment. Gatekeeper is a decent piece of removal, but ultimately I've found that while BBB is attainable, it often isn't always realistic in a game where I'm fetching Scrubs subject to nonbasic hate or basic plains. My list in particular is unforgiving of Gatekeeper as I run 4 Wasteland.
Wasteland, I'm assuming, is a budget necessity for you, so when you're able to get a playset I would suggest running them. I won't list arguments for it since their in every primer for decks that run it.
Hymn to Tourach should be an automatic 4-of because grandma always said, "Never leave home without yer 2-for-1's." :tongue:
Serra Avenger, I've found, to be preferrable when you have Vial. Yea, the Vigilance is nice when you want to atk with a piece of equipment and then block next turn, but w/o equipment she's a vanilla 3/3 body that doesn't even sit above burn range. I've been MDing x2 Tombstalker, but that's because I'm willing to run the risking of revealing 8 off Bob for a creature that puts them typically on a 3-turn clock by the time I cast him. I also run x4 SDT to help minimize the risk of Bob reveal, but keeping him sitting under 3 usually means that with 11 fetch effects I'm likely to see him in a MU but not so much that he clutters my hands or pings me off of Bob. Ultimately I just felt like the deck lacked solid, "Oh snaps," beater which sad to say are just sometimes necessary, so I opted for him happily at the risk of potentially lethal Bob life loss.
Those are my suggestions. Hope you have more success with the deck. ;)
Forlorn Egoist
And to think, i always thought my grandma was the only one that said this.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
nice to see some life in her ;)
@Gatekeeper
I really want to cut him, but I hesitate cause at the Tournament, everybody and their Mum played UGx+Progenitus&Emrakul and it is really good at the moment, to steal game 1 from them (my first opponent hated me for this^^). Maybe I Maindeck Edicts and Moms in Split or something. Need to think and test this more
@IoK
I really need to Upgrade them^^
@Mom
I can really see her in Gatekeepers Place, Problem is as mentionend that Gatekeeper right now is a Metacall.
@Wasteland
Without the Keeper is Wasteland a viable Choice. (Looks like my Savings are in serious trouble right now)
@Lack of Serious Beats
I thought the same and came to Abyssal Persecutor. Lesser Ping, bigger Damage and most important, trample. No more hangin around with the Bitterblossom-Crew. Tested this against a friend of mine and worked out pretty well, the deck has enough options to kill the guy after the work is done.
Thanks for your Suggestions, i work my list over and present it soon
How does the deck beat Affinity?
Remove every threat they got and start beating down?
@ Leto
Thoughtseize takes priority for you over Wasteland at the moment, however I would suggest getting Wasteland eventually as it is a necessary staple. If you absolutely want the sacrifice effect MD then run 3 Diabolic Edict instead. Essentially they kill the same creatures, it's instant speed so you don't waste your own turn, and it's only 1B which is incredibly more reasonable for us that BBB.
@ Abyssal Persecutor
If you really want to run him then I suggest taking a look at The Gate thread. Makes apt use of him. We can't run him because he'd change the deck style too much. Ultimately I'd rather have Bob and the White splash for StP/Vindicate than a slightly faster clock on our opponent.
As for Affinity, this is definitely a tough MU. Depending on how dedicated you want to be for Affinity hate, here are my suggestions:
3-4 Powder Keg
3-4 Null Rod
Keg @ 0 destroys Ornithopter/Artifact lands, and Null Rod shuts off Artifact lands/Arcbound Ravager/Cranial Plating/Springleaf Drum
As for playing them, I don't really have too much to say since it's absent from my meta, but here are a few suggestions:
In regards to Wasteland targets, ignore Great Furnace and go for either Glimmervoid or Vault of Whispers. With TS your primary target should be Cranial Plating. We have several ways of dealing with a creature, but if they drop this and we don't have a Vindicate then you're in topdeck mode to find one. Be wary, as I've picked up on some Affinity lists running Stoneforge Mystic. Part of Affinity's weakness is that they burn out really fast, so if you can last the first few turns your prospects begin to look better.
Sorry I can't provide more help with this MU, but I honestly have little if any experience with this MU beyond my MBA days. I'll do some research and get back to ya.
Forlorn Egoist
I ran a BW deck with Stoneforge Mystic for Grafted War-gear and the usual suspects. Very minimal change, you already run Stops and Vindicates. It isn't as bad as it sounds. Just putting it out there for people who might want to try it.Quote:
@ Abyssal Persecutor
If you really want to run him then I suggest taking a look at The Gate thread. Makes apt use of him. We can't run him because he'd change the deck style too much. Ultimately I'd rather have Bob and the White splash for StP/Vindicate than a slightly faster clock on our opponent.
@ beating affinity, if it's prominent in your meta, SB some kataki, war's wage, maybe some disenchant??
Thats the shitiest advice ever...hey guys this guy sucks I kick his ass every week....lmao....Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacemagic
No seriuosly kataki is boss against affinity...
If people think Aether Vial should be included... Doesn't that make this deck some kind suboptimal of Death and Taxes hybrid? For Vial to be good you want to run 20+ creatures.
lol, sup deezy
seriously though, i'm brand new to this deck...just kinda fell into most of it and decided to build it...
list
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
3x Swamp
3x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Aether Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
4x Mother of Runes
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Serra Avenger
4xDark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
62 cards...looking to cut 2. I'm currently looking at going down a Stoneforge Mystic and possibly a land (Bojuka Bog to sideboard) chime in, gimme some valid reasons at your suggestions, otherwise my head's gonna 'splode, also i have toyed with the idea of dropping the 4 vials for another land (mishra's factory, horizon canopy, or another fetch) and the 4th Vindicate. holla back
your list looks very similar to the List Gene Richtsmeier played in Kansas City SCG here
maybe you find something helpful in it.
That was actually an article i read a couple times for some insight, however i couldn't justify not running hymn to tourach, especially after seeing the final match from SCG Edison. granted that was BWG Rock, but these decks play a similar disruption game, also i had to change the manabase up a bit. On a side note, i know a lot of people don't like vial in this deck or claim that it's not deadguy with vial...why? Even though i don't know if i want to keep vial in, it is VERY nice to have instant speed targeted disruption from sculler.
this is what I am testing at the moment
// Lands
6 [HOP] Swamp
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [P2] Plains
4 [R] Scrubland
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
// Creatures
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [GTW] Vampire Nighthawk
// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
2 [MBS] Go for the Throat
3 [ARE] Diabolic Edict
2 [JGC] Vindicate
1 [GPX] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
biggest changes are no gatekeeper and 3 moms 3 edicts for that. IoK switched against TS.
Will provide you with testing results later
question I asked myself lately, are Swords really superior to paths in this deck. I mean getting the opponent a basic land is huge (especially when you are running Wasteland) but stalling back our beat-down plan isn't this good either, cause our guys aren't biggest folks around (no one more than 2 Power means 2-3 hits to set back the lifegain of a sworded Goyf).
Swords is far better than Path. There shouldn't be much debate there. The problem is not Path v Swords, but why aren't you running Goyf? It looks like you're very low on creatures. I've found decks like this require the perfect mix of creatures and disruption. Too little disruption and your creatures die to their control. Too few creatures and your lack of pressure means they can get back into the game after your disruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
You have 9 spells that only kill creatures. That seems far too excessive to me. Especially in a deck with 2x Vindicate and Jitte to boot. I would expect you to run out of creatures and sit there with removal/disruption in hand wishing you could use the equipment in play.
Play more and better creatures and you'll see that the life gained by Sword is insignificant and your equipment isn't sitting around doing nothing because you have no creatures.
so does no one consider spectral lynx anymore? it can chump any goyf or knight all day, can't be blocked by progenitus, shrugs off firespout, and regenerates for cheap...plus they're like 50 cents each. I considered them at first to fight creature decks, lynx plus a sword or mom would be a headache.
I feel like paying one extra mana for Mirran Crusader is justified. You gain Pro-Black, a toughness and Double Strike (you do lose Regen, but w/e).Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacemagic
I would think Phyrexian Crusader would be better than Mirran crusader if your looking for a resilient beater. Pro red and white (immune to the vast majority of removal) and in combat he makes creatures smaller before they can even do damage. The infect is kinda annoying outside blocking though :/
EDIT: I didn't think of the swords effects stacking for mirrian crusader. Thats pretty ridiculous and probably makes him a better option if you need a 3cc beater. The phyrexian crusaders probably still a better option if your looking for resilience though. I guess the real question is: are either crusader better than Vampire nighthawk? Cause I'm assuming you would have to replace him, not make room for another 3cc creature elsewhere.
excellent point, the double strike would cause some ridiculous equipment triggers also.8 damage + gain 6 life+2 creatures back SoLaS or 4 damage+2 cards drawn SoFaI...hmm that sounds quite tasty the loss of regen would hurt vs. zoo or gobbos w/o mom or sword, but w/e i'm just throwin out ideas anyways, thanks for the insight
I understand that this isn't really Deadguy Ale, but it kinda is also. I've been testing this list I put together and it's been running really good.
The Sign in Blood and Beseech the Queen is great in this deck!
3 Gerrad's Verdict
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Phyrexian Crusader
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Damnation
2 Liliana Vess
2 Reanimate
3 Sign in blood
3 Beseech the Queen
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Marsh Flats
10 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Scrublands
2 Plains
No. No, it's not. This deck is terrible and not even close to competitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pharmacist
At least we are all being constructive.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
Did some playtesting last night. Seems the deck does great against GWB Rock, which should be good since SCG Edison had 4 in the top 16 and 3 in the top 8. Watch out for explosives and deed (duh) the one bojuka bog i MD was relevant as the games went long enough to draw it and shrink goyf/knight.
I was trading games with goblins (mom+SoFaI are your outs) though i still feel disadvantaged in this matchup
didn't do so hot vs. zoo.
will continue the gauntlet later vs. spring tide, merfolk, belcher, and dredge.
how is everyone else's matchups for this archetype and what cards do you feel are relevant in the even or less favored matchups to pull them out?
This comment made me think up this list:Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Mother of Runes
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
3x Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Swamp
1x Bayou
1x Plains
1x Forest
Easily splashes a tiny hint of green for Goyf, but mainly I imagine he'll get Vialed in. I'm gunna try this. Anyone here experimented with something similar? If so, what were your results and opinions?
Wow so all the testing and games that I won must mean nothing. Next time I'll just send you my deck list and ask what you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
This is very similar to what I'm running. Very similar in deed. I absolutely love it. I'm still not sure about going with a 3cmc vs a 2cmc in your Nighthawk slot just to keep my Vial active the whole game, but that's up in the air.Quote:
Originally Posted by InResponseForceOfWill
Testing against sealed pools and SoM block decks doesn't count.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pharmacist
There is no way a pile like that is doing anything against real decks. Let's see what problems there are:
Phyrexian Crusader in a non-Poison deck. Check.
Lillian Vess. Check
18 Land in a deck with Vess and plenty of 3 drops. Check.
1 whole Scrubland in a deck that wants to cast white spells. Check.
Sign in Blood. Check.
Beseech the Queen. Check.
No Bob. Check.
Random Singletons. Check.
There's no fixing this deck without starting over. It looks like a pile of the Black and White cards you had laying around. If you want to send me a decklist for approval, feel free, but don't be surprised when I tell you it's bad.
I feel the same way. I would prefer to run a 2cc creature there, but I believe the lifelink is very necessary, especially if you run Thoughtseize over IoK. (I currently use IoK b/c I don't own TS. Gunna wait til they rotate out of Extended)Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
I mentioned this a few pages ago, but I played a guy who ran 4x Dark Depths and 4x Vampire Hexmage. That's about the only thing I'd consider dropping the Nighthawks for, but even still, it's probably inferior. Sure is fun though...
What other 2cc drops might contend for the spot? Too bad you can't vial in a gatekeeper AND kick it :)
Also, I want to squeeze 2x Sensei's Divining Tops back in. Ideas how? I'd probably go -1 Vindicate to SB, -1 Nighthawk?
Edit: Oh yah, Serra Avenger would go well there.
Serra Avenger. Epochrasite could be sexy, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by InResponseForceOfWill
Squadron Hawk has been surprisingly good for me. The ability to keep spitting out dudes is really nice. It makes the deck more equipment reliant, but Jitte on a hawk is still two jitte counters.
I think it's still too early to count out Phyrexian Crusader just yet. Strictly compared to his Mirran counterpart, he looks pretty good:
-better protection colors
-still a 5-turn clock
-survives combat with a 3/3 instead of trading
So far in testing, PC has been an absolute house against Zoo, a much better defensive choice than Nighthawk so far. MC has been nuts once equipped, the problem is how much removal he tends to eat in response to equipping.