[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

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Originally Posted by emidln

I played this list to top32 at baltimore. I was in t8 contention until round 8

3 Doomsday
4 Burning Wish
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Karakas
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand

SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Tropical Island
SB: 2 Karakas
SB: 2 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Time Spiral
SB: 1 Infernal Contract
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy

Ended up 6-3. I feel like I was a draw spell at some point over a huge amount of turns from making t8. List felt fine. Would play again.

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I really like this list I'm just getting into legacy. I don't own any Karakas would you put a fetchland in its slot? Also opening up two sideboard slots do you like Ill-Gotten gains or a second IU on the SB? Goldfishing I found the extra burning wish when I draw into DD needed a decent target for if I want hard cast DD on 3 and want to play the wish T2. Also looking at the google docs SS on the other page there are alot of good piles with IGGY and TOA Maindeck that have cheaper mana requirements. Snapcaster Would not be very good for me alot if DRS. Could I play a Maindeck IGGY? It seems pretty crap to draw into but it makes the t1 dark rit doomsday pass piles possible. I could also just MD one of the tendrils and SB the IGGY for BW piles. If you don't think they are worth a slot MD what would you put in snapcasters slot petal number 2? Another land or preordain?

Tendrils and IGG are just miserable, straight up mulligans any time you draw them.

In straight UBr Doomsday you might try a badlands in spot of karakas, it's not all that great, but while learning the deck it can make things easier and every now and then it's nice to have. Otherwise, probably another basic/sea.

There are plenty of Pass the Turn piles that don't require IGG, just making it more useless.

If you don't play the snapcaster then I'd go for the 2nd petal or another protection spell.

But for the most part, doomsday discussion takes place on Stormboards, not here. Good luck with the deck!

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Originally Posted by leegoo

Tendrils and IGG are just miserable, straight up mulligans any time you draw them.

In straight UBr Doomsday you might try a badlands in spot of karakas, it's not all that great, but while learning the deck it can make things easier and every now and then it's nice to have. Otherwise, probably another basic/sea.

There are plenty of Pass the Turn piles that don't require IGG, just making it more useless.

If you don't play the snapcaster then I'd go for the 2nd petal or another protection spell.

But for the most part, doomsday discussion takes place on Stormboards, not here. Good luck with the deck!

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Thanks I just today put in an app waiting for a mod to unlock me so I can read up. Why is badlands or basic / sea better than another fetch are the exact number of real lands very important? Seems like a fetch would ve better without shuffle. Also of If I decide to play lotus pedal over the snap would IGGY /IU number 2 be worth it in SB? When goldfishing IGGY in SB seemed pretty useless but IU seemed awesome but I was fishing and the extra wishes I got might just end up getting me DD if I get one stripped. What do you think my SB slots should be for the Karakas I see massacre discussed a few pages back. Based on what I've seen and what you said I think I can do - Karakas -snap + petal + sea abd in SB -2 Karakas + 1IU + 1massacre How does that look?

I mean, I think Infernal Contract fairly well solidifies your "card draw" spell in the board, making a second IU pretty unnecessary.

You can run another fetch if you wanted... a lot of newer players to doomsday have a hard time coming up with the right amount of mana (that is R + BBB) without running a badlands. It's something you learn, but it's a nice crutch if you can afford it, and just nice in general at times.

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Originally Posted by leegoo

I mean, I think Infernal Contract fairly well solidifies your "card draw" spell in the board, making a second IU pretty unnecessary.

You can run another fetch if you wanted... a lot of newer players to doomsday have a hard time coming up with the right amount of mana (that is R + BBB) without running a badlands. It's something you learn, but it's a nice crutch if you can afford it, and just nice in general at times.

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I think I will just have to goldfish alot. I liked idea of IGGY since that google doc made this deck incredibly easy to understand and all it's pass piles are IGGY is love if you or the decks creator could show me some possible pass piles without a main deck ToA or IGGY becuase I'm not seeing alot of easy ones. Considering you want to pass pile on really fast T1 -T2 DD plays to make it faster than just waiting I don't see many. This may be outweighed by how horrible of a draw it is but it allows for some decent pass piles if in hand but aside from that it's a mull 6 like you said. I think it's time to go fishing until I get access to storm boards.

Edit: would 1 rite of flame sideboard be bad for an extra wish target for the double wish hands for 1 extra storm and mana or is IC going to net me the same advantage with or with SDT on board ?

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Originally Posted by Moxnix

I think I will just have to goldfish alot. I liked idea of IGGY since that google doc made this deck incredibly easy to understand and all it's pass piles are IGGY is love if you or the decks creator could show me some possible pass piles without a main deck ToA or IGGY becuase I'm not seeing alot of easy ones. Considering you want to pass pile on really fast T1 -T2 DD plays to make it faster than just waiting I don't see many. This may be outweighed by how horrible of a draw it is but it allows for some decent pass piles if in hand but aside from that it's a mull 6 like you said. I think it's time to go fishing until I get access to storm boards.

Edit: would 1 rite of flame sideboard be bad for an extra wish target for the double wish hands for 1 extra storm and mana or is IC going to net me the same advantage with or with SDT on board ?

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You are going to have to goldfish a lot. Iggy has fallen out of favor of late, most people have or are cutting that card from the sideboard. If you are trying to set up pass the turn piles on turn one or two and not going for the shelldock emrukul plan, your going to really struggle as you probably don't have enough resources to go off properly.

Rite is not good in the sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Moxnix

I think I will just have to goldfish alot. I liked idea of IGGY since that google doc made this deck incredibly easy to understand and all it's pass piles are IGGY is love if you or the decks creator could show me some possible pass piles without a main deck ToA or IGGY becuase I'm not seeing alot of easy ones. Considering you want to pass pile on really fast T1 -T2 DD plays to make it faster than just waiting I don't see many. This may be outweighed by how horrible of a draw it is but it allows for some decent pass piles if in hand but aside from that it's a mull 6 like you said. I think it's time to go fishing until I get access to storm boards.

Edit: would 1 rite of flame sideboard be bad for an extra wish target for the double wish hands for 1 extra storm and mana or is IC going to net me the same advantage with or with SDT on board ?

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Ill-Gotten Gains is bad because it's a horrible draw, and the benefits of having it in your deck do not outweigh that. The main reasons you would want it in your deck are to enable Ill-Gotten Gains Loops with Infernal Tutor and to enable quick pass-the-turn piles. However, Infernal Tutor also isn't good in this deck because it can't often win the game on its own unless you have a Sensei's Divining Top in play since the deck doesn't max out on fast mana to facilitate Ill-Gotten Gains (2 Lotus Petals max, no Cabal Rituals because they're bad with Ideas Unbound, and Rain of Filth isn't any good at all for loops), and the kind of decks you want to quickly pass the turn on are decks you should beat up on anyway because passing the turn is dangerous enough that it shouldn't be your first choice against anything that could disrupt you after you've committed. And in this vein, playing Ideas Unbound piles with Probe and Burning Wish in your deck makes it much easier to string together a quick win that passing the turn quickly isn't as important.

Basically: Why do you find it integral to this deck's game plan to be able to consistently cast Doomsday on turns 1 and 2?

Also, could you explain more what you'd be trying to do with a Rite of Flame in your board? All I'm seeing is "It doesn't cast Doomsday" and the biggest problem I have with this deck is actually getting the triple black mana to cast my card.

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Originally Posted by Namida

the biggest problem I have with this deck is actually getting the triple black mana to cast my card.

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3 x Underground Sea
1 x Badlands
2 x Swamp

Usually does it for me :wink:

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Originally Posted by Chikenbok

3 x Underground Sea
1 x Badlands
2 x Swamp

Usually does it for me :wink:

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Oh, I don't mean to say that it's a *real* problem--my point is that I don't think Rite of Flame does anything because only Burning Wish and Sensei's Divining Top can utilize the mana because every other card in the deck strictly needs blue or black mana, with no colorless mana requirements to speak of. I'm not seeing any immediate upside that overshadows the whole "This is only works with two cards in the deck" problem.

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Originally Posted by Namida

Oh, I don't mean to say that it's a *real* problem--my point is that I don't think Rite of Flame does anything because only Burning Wish and Sensei's Divining Top can utilize the mana because every other card in the deck strictly needs blue or black mana, with no colorless mana requirements to speak of. I'm not seeing any immediate upside that overshadows the whole "This is only works with two cards in the deck" problem.

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Oh man, I didn't even see someone recommending Rite in the SB. Yeah, don't do that. I think I'd probably run bubbling muck before I touched Rite of Flame.

Also dude who likes IGG, if you're into IGG, you can try out the old german lists that ran infernal tutor and burning wish. It was usually an Iggy loop deck that had Doomsday as a 40%/backup plan. It can get you into the mindset of why simply casting Doomsday is better than casting anything else.

Still cant see anything on StormBoards but i have done some testing of my own. Well i actually just gold-fished the deck a ton and yea i don't think i need any of those bad card SB or main after using the deck. It is alot easier than i thought once you see its just crafting a hand that gets their by moving through the pile droping BW last and Trendrils and so far im finding dropping in cabal therapy / duress quite easy as a chug toward t3-4 kills. Now i need some practice with someone Hymning me or dazing me or pulling out flusterstorms or whatever. I really like his core build i just switched Karakas for Sea 3 and Played Petal number 2 over Snap-caster. I Think i might just use the two extra SB slots i have from karkas and play 2 Dark Confidant For if i board them in with the 4th Therapy against decks that grind me down with Hymn etc maybe?

The thing i love about this deck though is opening the silly hands and going yea i can win turn 1 with this :)

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Originally Posted by Moxnix

Still cant see anything on StormBoards but i have done some testing of my own. Well i actually just gold-fished the deck a ton and yea i don't think i need any of those bad card SB or main after using the deck. It is alot easier than i thought once you see its just crafting a hand that gets their by moving through the pile droping BW last and Trendrils and so far im finding dropping in cabal therapy / duress quite easy as a chug toward t3-4 kills. Now i need some practice with someone Hymning me or dazing me or pulling out flusterstorms or whatever. I really like his core build i just switched Karakas for Sea 3 and Played Petal number 2 over Snap-caster. I Think i might just use the two extra SB slots i have from karkas and play 2 Dark Confidant For if i board them in with the 4th Therapy against decks that grind me down with Hymn etc maybe?

The thing i love about this deck though is opening the silly hands and going yea i can win turn 1 with this :)

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Oh yeah, the Snapcaster Mage got dropped quickly because of Deathrite Shaman. If I recall correctly, the list you have is outdated, but you made pretty much the same changes to your maindeck. There's still a Karakas in the board, though, and 2 Tropical Island 4 Abrupt Decay was deemed unnecessary. I've never understood what Dark Confidant is supposed to do in Storm decks, to be honest with you. What sort of Hymn decks are you facing? In any case, I don't think you need much more to combat discard when you're already playing Sensei's Divining Top and a bunch of lands. I'd personally play Emrakul and Shelldock Isle in your last two slots.

Well Congrats to the guy who placed with Doomsday at the SCG. Brain must be like cheese after so many rounds.... :). If anyone is still out there, anyone tried swan song on the board (vs discard/counters/counterbalance)? Im playing UBr DDFT with a light green splash off the board for swarm/decay. (Im testing dropping it for the swan songs). Anyone got any swish ways to play around the random 1 of karakas from esper stoneblade/miracles. Literally every time I go for Emrakul post board they seem to have it sandbagged somewhere.... (not too keen on boarding a pithing needle etc... space is already tight). Would a more traditional 'German' list be better at the moment? it seems a bit more durable, which is good at the mo with all the permanent based disruption running around...

It seems like the deck seems pretty well positioned at the moment, we should drum up a bit more interest :D.

Hope someone out in the interweb-a-net is listening!

The Spanish Tunnel King.

Personally, I've dropped Shelldock/Emrakul from my board due to the weakness you've mentioned, and basically every deck running wasteland. Not worth it anymore. If you're looking for an alternate win-con, try a 1 of Lab Maniac.

I'm running a 5c list, including the green splash. I think that Abrupt Decay and Swarms are a better answer to many problems than Swan Song, myself. Needing to counter something when they play it precludes cantripping to dig for pieces that you need as well. But, YMMV - I'm no DDFT expert or anything...

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Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King

Well Congrats to the guy who placed with Doomsday at the SCG. Brain must be like cheese after so many rounds.... :). If anyone is still out there, anyone tried swan song on the board (vs discard/counters/counterbalance)? Im playing UBr DDFT with a light green splash off the board for swarm/decay. (Im testing dropping it for the swan songs). Anyone got any swish ways to play around the random 1 of karakas from esper stoneblade/miracles. Literally every time I go for Emrakul post board they seem to have it sandbagged somewhere.... (not too keen on boarding a pithing needle etc... space is already tight). Would a more traditional 'German' list be better at the moment? it seems a bit more durable, which is good at the mo with all the permanent based disruption running around...

It seems like the deck seems pretty well positioned at the moment, we should drum up a bit more interest :D.

Hope someone out in the interweb-a-net is listening!

The Spanish Tunnel King.

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Swan Song seems interesting but I think Pyroblast might be better, the storm players in the TES forum like it so I would probably try Pyro over Swan Song.
There is no way to beat a Karakas w/o running another SB card or changing the list, just hope they don't have it.

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Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King

Well Congrats to the guy who placed with Doomsday at the SCG. Brain must be like cheese after so many rounds.... :). If anyone is still out there, anyone tried swan song on the board (vs discard/counters/counterbalance)? Im playing UBr DDFT with a light green splash off the board for swarm/decay. (Im testing dropping it for the swan songs). Anyone got any swish ways to play around the random 1 of karakas from esper stoneblade/miracles. Literally every time I go for Emrakul post board they seem to have it sandbagged somewhere.... (not too keen on boarding a pithing needle etc... space is already tight). Would a more traditional 'German' list be better at the moment? it seems a bit more durable, which is good at the mo with all the permanent based disruption running around...

It seems like the deck seems pretty well positioned at the moment, we should drum up a bit more interest :D.

Hope someone out in the interweb-a-net is listening!

The Spanish Tunnel King.

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We don't really discuss this deck on the source, most DDFT discussing occurs on stormboards.

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Originally Posted by .dk

Personally, I've dropped Shelldock/Emrakul from my board due to the weakness you've mentioned, and basically every deck running wasteland. Not worth it anymore. If you're looking for an alternate win-con, try a 1 of Lab Maniac.

I'm running a 5c list, including the green splash. I think that Abrupt Decay and Swarms are a better answer to many problems than Swan Song, myself. Needing to counter something when they play it precludes cantripping to dig for pieces that you need as well. But, YMMV - I'm no DDFT expert or anything...

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Yeah, my tendency is to go for the greediest manabase possible also. And the deck only really NEEDS to run 1 island 1 swamp, but i've reigned it in a bit and really have been digging the basics. Given enough mana the deck really seems to be able to plough through anything. And running 4-5 basics is really sweet vs. waste/stifle.dec allowing you to get to the point where you can make the deck really do some working going off. And in my mind Emrakul is there specifically against the counterbalance matchups, so you no longer have to resolve anything (counterable) post DD, and they dont play waste - just the 1 of karakas. And they might be able to catch you with a terminus if they have enough permanents (bad news, bears). I love the plan, but it seems like decay is better because its out of your control if they have it or not. Even if the chances are small-ish.... Yh I think I talked myself back to the green splash. The swarms are definitely awesome at the moment :). I actually find it nice having some counterspells in the deck. It enables you to function a bit like a vintage combo/control deck. Swan songing someones entreat the angels was pretty sweet, and the deck is much less reliant on LED (pre-DD) than most other storm decks, so maybe there is some room for some counters... I also dont really like cantripping so aggressively most times (unless there is some potential kill on or have a ton of them, or need to hide something with brainstorm) so I could usually have the mana for it if I needed to. Its not really been a problem for me...

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Originally Posted by Mhenlo

Swan Song seems interesting but I think Pyroblast might be better, the storm players in the TES forum like it so I would probably try Pyro over Swan Song.
There is no way to beat a Karakas w/o running another SB card or changing the list, just hope they don't have it.

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Yh I used to play TES a lot with 2 pyroblast in the board back in the day, and found them to be great. But to be honest, the cards that I find hard to play around aren't actually blue... I find liliana (ok, so you cant swan song her either :)) hard to play through, and surgical extractions my own personal nightmare. But swan song seems to hit most things that I dislike. From counterspells, to discard, to counterbalance or a leyline of sanctity that they play out it seems sweet. Still dont know if its better than the swarms though...

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Originally Posted by Countertoplol

We don't really discuss this deck on the source, most DDFT discussing occurs on stormboards.

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Yeah, im registered over there too, although Im not such a regular visitor. Good to get ideas from everywhere, dont you think?

The Spannish Tunnel King

Doomsday (sb/LM view) - December 2013
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4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Ideas Unbound

3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Chain of Vapor

3 Doomsday
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Swamp

My sideboard has been this:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Doomsday
1 Infernal Contract
1 Time Spiral
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Massacre
1 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
1 Laboratory Maniac

A few explanations:

Tendrils of Agony maindeck provides some additional capabilities in terms of cheap
Brainstorm piles and Chain of Vapor piles. I want the 2nd in my 75, and I consider
the utility provided by a maindeck Tendrils higher than the 18th land (Karakas/Trop Island),
Lab Maniac, Abrupt Decay, Empty the Warrens, or Infernal Contract.

There is only a single Lotus Petal. This means foresight about floating mana
into a Doomsday pile by breaking Lotus Petal is sometimes going to be necessary.
Don't be the guy who doesn't crack Lotus Petal and then has no way to get starter
mana in their pile. With a single Lotus Petal, ETW is worse, and thus a third
Abrupt Decay plus the functionality of Lab Maniac replaces it.

A Duress has been cut for a Chromatic Sphere. Chromatic Sphere serves two major purposes:

(1) Provides a lab maniac pile that is immune to removal and LED compatible (2UU).
(2) Provides a way to store a draw step with Doomsday. This makes 5 total.

Filtering mana is obviously useful in a deck with basics and specific black/blue requirements.
Additionally, it's just another cantrip for 1 sometimes. (Which means +2 mana via an
in-pile LED for those of you paying attention.)

The manabase is optimized for providing stable mana in the face of disruption while still
providing access to lots of colors. Four basics mean you can use your cantrips to bury
opponents in card quality. The fetch config means all 9 fetches have access to all
colors.

The choice of Laboratory Maniac should be looked at as part of an overall strategy to
combat permanent-based hate. Laboratory Maniac is a Tendrils of Agony with a builtin
Rushing River. It's also a viable pass the turn pile that isn't vulnerable to much
(red blast, normal countermagic) for 2UU and optimally vulnerable to creature removal
for 1UU. This is extremely important in attrition-based matchups like SnT where you often
need to beat both countermagic and a clock. Beating both and Leylines is often too much.
Lab Man evens the field greatly.

It's possible that the build isn't optimal in regards to usage of Lab Man. I'm highly
considering the 4th Duress, Lab Man, and a Karakas as a combined package over
Chain of Vapor, Tendrils of Agony, and a card to be named. This would allow more
aggressive lines with respect to pass the turn piles when Duress/Therapy/Probe reveals
an opportunity. It's entirely possible that such a build would eschew the 17th UB land
maindeck for a 2nd Lotus Petal in order to get more turn 2 Doomsdays.

Against Show and Tell, you want your 60 to look like this:

4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Lab Maniac
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Infernal Contract
4 Burning Wish
3 Doomday
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Karakas

Against Mono Blue SnT, you leave out Karakas for an Island. You might also consider
cutting Infernal Contract since there is no danger of red blasts, but a draw4 is
also useful in an attrition war.

I need to go, but I intend to post some follow up advice on Delver variants, DnT, UWx Control, Elves, and the Storm
pseudo-mirror. I'd also like to explore a maindeck Lab Man view of the deck, but I need some testing before really tackling that.

First up, nice to see you back on DD :D. Some comments/questions for you!

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Originally Posted by emidln

Doomsday (sb/LM view) - December 2013
-------------------------

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Ideas Unbound

3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Chain of Vapor

3 Doomsday
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Swamp

Sweet list. Sphere looks pretty groovy :)

My sideboard has been this:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Doomsday
1 Infernal Contract
1 Time Spiral
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Massacre
1 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
1 Laboratory Maniac

Would slaughter pact be better than karakas here? I havent seen too many Teegs+mom around lately, and generates storm if you need it in a pile. Also better vs cannonist/meddling mage which seem to be all the rage. And yes, I can see that you have the 2nd massacre for those guys, but just a thought. Also - would you ever run the tropic main. Going down to 3 basics seems ok, and SB space is at a premium (as im sure you know :))

A few explanations:

Tendrils of Agony maindeck provides some additional capabilities in terms of cheap
Brainstorm piles and Chain of Vapor piles. I want the 2nd in my 75, and I consider
the utility provided by a maindeck Tendrils higher than the 18th land (Karakas/Trop Island),
Lab Maniac, Abrupt Decay, Empty the Warrens, or Infernal Contract.

Obviously true. Also esper seems to do about 6 damage to itself during the game, making a natural tendrils pretty sweet, as I found out after boarding in the 2nd copy post board. Is the tendrils better than the 7th discard though? I'd find 6 a bit light I think (even with the 4th wish----> therepy). Especially if none of them are silence....

There is only a single Lotus Petal. This means foresight about floating mana
into a Doomsday pile by breaking Lotus Petal is sometimes going to be necessary.
Don't be the guy who doesn't crack Lotus Petal and then has no way to get starter
mana in their pile. With a single Lotus Petal, ETW is worse, and thus a third
Abrupt Decay plus the functionality of Lab Maniac replaces it.

I did the lotus petal thing so many times. It feels sooooo bad. A lesson learned though :). Dont know if only 1 petal makes ETW worse. Mostly seems to be made off LED. Unless you mean for the storm count. I guess ETW is better in in relation to how many tempo decks are around rather than the number of lotus petals...

A Duress has been cut for a Chromatic Sphere. Chromatic Sphere serves two major purposes:

(1) Provides a lab maniac pile that is immune to removal and LED compatible (2UU).
(2) Provides a way to store a draw step with Doomsday. This makes 5 total.

Love this. Except for the fact a duress was cut.....

Filtering mana is obviously useful in a deck with basics and specific black/blue requirements.
Additionally, it's just another cantrip for 1 sometimes. (Which means +2 mana via an
in-pile LED for those of you paying attention.)

The manabase is optimized for providing stable mana in the face of disruption while still
providing access to lots of colors. Four basics mean you can use your cantrips to bury
opponents in card quality. The fetch config means all 9 fetches have access to all
colors.

The choice of Laboratory Maniac should be looked at as part of an overall strategy to
combat permanent-based hate. Laboratory Maniac is a Tendrils of Agony with a builtin
Rushing River. It's also a viable pass the turn pile that isn't vulnerable to much
(red blast, normal countermagic) for 2UU and optimally vulnerable to creature removal
for 1UU. This is extremely important in attrition-based matchups like SnT where you often
need to beat both countermagic and a clock. Beating both and Leylines is often too much.
Lab Man evens the field greatly.

Its a shame he cant fulfil the same role as Emrakul vs counterbalance though :/. And after 3-4 years playing on and off, i've really only just got used to IU piles. The idea of learning more piles terrifies me.... XD

It's possible that the build isn't optimal in regards to usage of Lab Man. I'm highly
considering the 4th Duress, Lab Man, and a Karakas as a combined package over
Chain of Vapor, Tendrils of Agony, and a card to be named. This would allow more
aggressive lines with respect to pass the turn piles when Duress/Therapy/Probe reveals
an opportunity. It's entirely possible that such a build would eschew the 17th UB land
maindeck for a 2nd Lotus Petal in order to get more turn 2 Doomsdays.

Cant see me playing DD with no CoV in the main XD. But on a broader note, it seems like being resilient (the reason to play DD) is better than speed ATM because of all the discard. TES is probably better at doing things turn 2 than us.

Against Show and Tell, you want your 60 to look like this:

4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Lab Maniac
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Infernal Contract
4 Burning Wish
3 Doomday
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Karakas

Against Mono Blue SnT, you leave out Karakas for an Island. You might also consider
cutting Infernal Contract since there is no danger of red blasts, but a draw4 is
also useful in an attrition war.

I need to go, but I intend to post some follow up advice on Delver variants, DnT, UWx Control, Elves, and the Storm
pseudo-mirror. I'd also like to explore a maindeck Lab Man view of the deck, but I need some testing before really tackling that.

Yeah, really quality input, looking forward to the next instalment :D

The Spanish Tunnel King

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King

First up, nice to see you back on DD :D. Some comments/questions for you!

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Karakas is better than Slaughter Pact against Thalia, Griselbrand, and Emrakul. While it is worse against Canonist and Mage, those are seeing play from decks with countermagic. I'd be siding in a Massacre and Abrupt Decays in those matchups to avoid getting my removal spell countered. Canonist also sees play in DnT, but is much less of a threat than Thalia. Mother can protect both in any event (Canonist or Thalia or Revoker) so I'm going to need Massacre more than likely (hence one to side, one to wish).

ETW utility against Delver is something to consider more.

You don't need Lab Man to do everything against Counterbalance. You have Abrupt Decays for that. Also, it is actually reasonably to stack Abrupt Decay and then Ideas Unbound into a Lab Man pile against a UW deck postboard. You were already planning on passing twice with Shelldock Isle. Sure, they can theoretically counter your Lab Man, but you actually do have Duress/Therapy still available (this is one of those places where having basics so you can tap lands for mana actually matters).

Chain of Vapor is a means to an end. There are only a few cards that it solves in g1 (Leyline of Sanctity from UW/Mono Blue SnT, Gaddock Teeg from Bant/Elves/Maverick, and Thalia / Revoker from DnT ). It's mostly there extending your sideboard. Karakas is comparable (sometimes better, sometimes worse) at dealing with Teeg/Thalia and playing a Lab Man would eliminate the need to deal with Leyline of Sanctity and Gaddock Teeg. The huge upside is that you would be able to build the deck to aggressively capitalize on mulligans/bad keeps/poor draws from the opponent.

A return to true form. Fetchland (9) Tendrils (maindeck). Welcome back to your namesake!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

Karakas is better than Slaughter Pact against Thalia, Griselbrand, and Emrakul. While it is worse against Canonist and Mage, those are seeing play from decks with countermagic. I'd be siding in a Massacre and Abrupt Decays in those matchups to avoid getting my removal spell countered. Canonist also sees play in DnT, but is much less of a threat than Thalia. Mother can protect both in any event (Canonist or Thalia or Revoker) so I'm going to need Massacre more than likely (hence one to side, one to wish).

ETW utility against Delver is something to consider more.

You don't need Lab Man to do everything against Counterbalance. You have Abrupt Decays for that. Also, it is actually reasonably to stack Abrupt Decay and then Ideas Unbound into a Lab Man pile against a UW deck postboard. You were already planning on passing twice with Shelldock Isle. Sure, they can theoretically counter your Lab Man, but you actually do have Duress/Therapy still available (this is one of those places where having basics so you can tap lands for mana actually matters).

Chain of Vapor is a means to an end. There are only a few cards that it solves in g1 (Leyline of Sanctity from UW/Mono Blue SnT, Gaddock Teeg from Bant/Elves/Maverick, and Thalia / Revoker from DnT ). It's mostly there extending your sideboard. Karakas is comparable (sometimes better, sometimes worse) at dealing with Teeg/Thalia and playing a Lab Man would eliminate the need to deal with Leyline of Sanctity and Gaddock Teeg. The huge upside is that you would be able to build the deck to aggressively capitalize on mulligans/bad keeps/poor draws from the opponent.

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Yh. The thing that tends to happen with me and a miracles player (post board) is we both get set up (I cantrip my face off until they manage to get CB/top up) and then I keep probing (metaphorically, not the card :D) to try and force through a DD (and 3 is sometimes a weak spot for them...) and then the game is over. But if they have the lock up then discard is pretty useless... If you can win before the lock its all good and dandy, but I like that the deck still has a lot of game post CB/top being set up, which I think it would lose a bit of with the lab man. And there are quite a few CB players where I am. Im tempted to play both Emmy AND the decays XD.

I think im overly fond of chain of vapors, to the point I probably would include it even if it wasnt optimum (a cardinal sin, I know). But its just nice to have some outs to annoying perms. G1 I find. But the most important thing for me in the storm engine side. With so much discard/lilly around, I think its key to grinding people out, having a lot of land drops with top in play and topdecking DD and making some CoV pile for the extra storm.

Doomsday makes me happy

The Spanish Tunnel King

Sorry. New to the deck
Why should i play ddft instead of ant? Just few words.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Sorry. New to the deck
Why should i play ddft instead of ant? Just few words.

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If you have to ask, the answer is that you shouldn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

If you have to ask, the answer is that you shouldn't.

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Alright, well this guy is clearly in a bad mood because his fedora got stapled into his neckbeard. I'm sure giving such a snarky reply made him feel pretty big, but he just looked like a tool.

The primary reason to play DD is just for fun. In terms of results, other Combo decks unarguably have consistently put up better results, but Doomsday is pretty difficult to pilot. Its a lot less straight forward ANT which can lead to slightly better game variety. You don't win quite as often, but you do, you win more spectacularly.

The second reason is the theoretical ability to get out of almost any situation.

The Alternate win conditions in various versions (Emrakul, Lab Man, or Tendrils) gives you 3 ways to get around almost any situation. It doesn't go off quite as easily as other combo decks, but when you get there it theoretically has the tools to get through anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milqman

Alright, well this guy is clearly in a bad mood because his fedora got stapled into his neckbeard. I'm sure giving such a snarky reply made him feel pretty big, but he just looked like a tool.

The primary reason to play DD is just for fun. In terms of results, other Combo decks unarguably have consistently put up better results, but Doomsday is pretty difficult to pilot. Its a lot less straight forward ANT which can lead to slightly better game variety. You don't win quite as often, but you do, you win more spectacularly.

The second reason is the theoretical ability to get out of almost any situation.

The Alternate win conditions in various versions (Emrakul, Lab Man, or Tendrils) gives you 3 ways to get around almost any situation. It doesn't go off quite as easily as other combo decks, but when you get there it theoretically has the tools to get through anything.

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Seriously, show some respect to one of the few people on the planet who is a master of the deck. His reply is snarky? Well this deck is the hardest deck to pilot in legacy hands down. If you have to ask why play this deck over ANT, TES, or any other storm deck really you aren't remotely close to understanding how to resolve doomsday optimally in order to win through thalia, gaddock teeg, and leyline of sanctity all in the same turn and should stick to ANT, TES, or whatever storm deck you're currently piloting since you aren't ready for doomsday fetchland tendrils.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

Seriously, show some respect to one of the few people on the planet who is a master of the deck. His reply is snarky? Well this deck is the hardest deck to pilot in legacy hands down. If you have to ask why play this deck over ANT, TES, or any other storm deck really you aren't remotely close to understanding how to resolve doomsday optimally in order to win through thalia, gaddock teeg, and leyline of sanctity all in the same turn and should stick to ANT, TES, or whatever storm deck you're currently piloting since you aren't ready for doomsday fetchland tendrils.

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He didn't ask for a primer, he just asked for a quick comparison and I answered in about 15 seconds without managing to berate him for being curious.

"If you have to ask, the answer is that you shouldn't." is emblematic of everything toxic people associate with the magic community. Nobody on the planet deserves respect for a response like that. The guy asking a question wants to learn something really hard, he deserves encouragement not a slap in the face.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milqman

He didn't ask for a primer, he just asked for a quick comparison and I answered in about 15 seconds without managing to berate him for being curious.

"If you have to ask, the answer is that you shouldn't." is emblematic of everything toxic people associate with the magic community. Nobody on the planet deserves respect for a response like that. The guy asking a question wants to learn something really hard, he deserves encouragement not a slap in the face.

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People in general are assholes. Hate to break it to you but that's the truth and one of the main things I learned working a minimum wage job at a theatre for 5 and a half years. As for his reply being snarky at all, it really isn't. If you want a rude reply here's one "go back to playing ANT you storm novice and keep being a novice at storm and perhaps in time you'll be ready for doomsday fetchland tendrils." Your reply, however, was quite rude in regards to the fedora and neckbeard.

Milqman thx for your support and understanding
. I need no more answers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Milqman thx for your support and understanding
. I need no more answers.

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emidln was rather unsubtle, I'll admit that, but he's not wrong.
If you are new to Doomsday, you will go 0-5 in your first three tourneys.
If you are new to Storm in general, you should play ANT > TES > Doomsday Tendrils.

In terms of fun, the order is the exact opposite, but Doomsday is HARD to play.
Actually it's hard enough to go off already with Doomsday, let alone fight through hate.
TES is also hard to play, because it has more options, and requires you go off faster than ANT.

But... I would definitely recommend you build Doomsday, and just goldfish 50 games.
If you get a feeling for what the deck can do, try it against some friends.
The deck is just very rewarding and fun to play. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milqman

He didn't ask for a primer, he just asked for a quick comparison and I answered in about 15 seconds without managing to berate him for being curious.

"If you have to ask, the answer is that you shouldn't." is emblematic of everything toxic people associate with the magic community. Nobody on the planet deserves respect for a response like that. The guy asking a question wants to learn something really hard, he deserves encouragement not a slap in the face.

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I think the "If you have to ask..." answer is suitable.

You need to be more than just "curious" in order to have this deck function. To make playing this deck anything more than a stressful waste of time, you need more than the sort of passing interest displayed in the "Convince me that caring about this is a good idea"-type post that was being responded to.

You see "A guy asking a question who wants to learn something really hard." I find it strange that you see things that way, because to me "Tell me why I should play this deck" implies that the poster doesn't even find the deck exciting enough to just play it because it might be fun. So what I see is "A guy who didn't even put forth the effort to read the thread he's posting in to draw his own conclusions about whether or not he's genuinely interested in learning anything." Doomsday players routinely call people out on this because the amount of work you need to put into playing this deck at even a mediocre level is such that you're definitely not getting anywhere if you need outside motivation to play the deck before you've even picked it up.

People aren't entitled to encouragement when they're basically asking you to hold their hand through something this basic. Deigning to entertain the thought of playing Doomsday doesn't automatically earn you a round of applause from a crowd of people who are desperate to get this deck more attention or anything like that.

Also, it's super weird that you want to rebuke anyone for their behavior when you're calling people fedora wearing neckbeard tools.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

Seriously, show some respect to one of the few people on the planet who is a master of the deck. His reply is snarky? Well this deck is the hardest deck to pilot in legacy hands down. If you have to ask why play this deck over ANT, TES, or any other storm deck really you aren't remotely close to understanding how to resolve doomsday optimally in order to win through thalia, gaddock teeg, and leyline of sanctity all in the same turn and should stick to ANT, TES, or whatever storm deck you're currently piloting since you aren't ready for doomsday fetchland tendrils.

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Fuck off! It's not brain surgery. It's not even chess. Anybody that wants to can figure it out in a few months.

Quote:

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If you are new to Doomsday, you will go 0-5 in your first three tourneys.

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So what? That shouldn't be a reason not to play the deck.

emidln didn't say anything that bad. It was a functionally correct reply, a tad abrasive, but the request was just for "few words". It does answer the question. Based on the fact he asked, he should probably play ANT more, get a better handle on the format and storm combo in general, maybe try out TES, and then get frustrated with limitations of those builds and realize what DD has to offer. Explaining why would take longer.

On the other hand, Milqman's reply was flat out rude and insulting ("fedora got stapled")... how can you ask of others what you can't do yourself?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

If you are new to Storm in general, you should play ANT > TES > Doomsday Tendrils.

In terms of fun, the order is the exact opposite

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Disagreed on the "fun". For the new player, losing=not fun, so ANT would probably be the most fun for them too. I've seen new players lose to themselves with ANT just by not counting properly... can't imagine how much more frustrating a time they would have playing "BBB: Exile your library and graveyard. That is all."


What do you guys think about siding into a full Lab Man package (like what Menendian was running) instead of just the single Lab Man? Seems like it would enable piles that win faster through hate. Or can you just not afford the slots in the 75?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

What do you guys think about siding into a full Lab Man package (like what Menendian was running) instead of just the single Lab Man? Seems like it would enable piles that win faster through hate. Or can you just not afford the slots in the 75?

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If i had gush, i would play labman in a heartbeat. I'm not that impressed with it outside of vintage (and even then sometimes I lose to getting targeted by my opponents A. Recall while trying to resolve the bastard)

I had the pleasure of playing against a local DDFT player this weekend (he placed 9th at SCG Oakland this past December) running a Silence build.

For anyone that isn't familiar with the deck and wants to know, DDFT can recover from situations that other Storm decks cannot, because:
1) Top + Fetchlands means he can see A LOT of cards per turn
2) A topdecked Doomsday turns the game around in only a way that a topdecked Ad Nauseum can, but they have 7 of them.

I have 0 experience piloting DDFT but a reasonable amount with TES. I also mulled bad hands into more bad hands, kept those, and was brutally punished for it.

Turn 2 Dark Ritual into Doomsday with a untapped land and my hand is LED,Wish,LP and a Prob.

I'm thinking cast LP,LED then cast Wish cracking LED for black getting a Infernal Contract. So far iv thought of a pile that could win but I would have to have a LP in the pile. The list I'm trying only plays one LP though.

What to do?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MTG Junkie

Turn 2 Dark Ritual into Doomsday with a untapped land and my hand is LED,Wish,LP and a Prob.

I'm thinking cast LP,LED then cast Wish cracking LED for black getting a Infernal Contract. So far iv thought of a pile that could win but I would have to have a LP in the pile. The list I'm trying only plays one LP though.

What to do?

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1st: You cast Dark Ritual (1)
2nd: Then cast Doomsday (2) stacking your deck with IU, LED, Probe, LED, BW.
3rd: Play Petal (3)
4th: Play LED (4)
5th: Pay two life for probe (5) retain priority crack LED for blue (UUU)
6th: Draw IU. Cast IU (6)
7th: Draw LED, LED, Probe.
8th: Play x LED (8) cast Probe (9) retain priority Crack LED for red and black (RRR,BBB)
9th: Draw burning wish.
10th: Cast Burning wish Storm is now lethal with RR,BB left in pool.
11th: Get tendrils in sideboard and cast to deal 22 damage (actually its life loss, but damage sounds normal.)

Also if you cast Doomsday with an LED in hand and a way to draw a card you should win. You don't even need the other land or petal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MTG Junkie

Turn 2 Dark Ritual into Doomsday with a untapped land and my hand is LED,Wish,LP and a Prob.

I'm thinking cast LP,LED then cast Wish cracking LED for black getting a Infernal Contract. So far iv thought of a pile that could win but I would have to have a LP in the pile. The list I'm trying only plays one LP though.

What to do?

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I don't know why you would need the LP in the pile, but you could cast/sack it before casting doomsday. Depending on your life total you could just: LP->Rit->DD->(LED,LED,LED,Wish,x)->GP->LED->LED->Wish(sack for BBBRRR)->IC->LED->LED->Wish(BBBBBBR)->Tendrils

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MTG Junkie

Turn 2 Dark Ritual into Doomsday with a untapped land and my hand is LED,Wish,LP and a Prob.

I'm thinking cast LP,LED then cast Wish cracking LED for black getting a Infernal Contract. So far iv thought of a pile that could win but I would have to have a LP in the pile. The list I'm trying only plays one LP though.

What to do?

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Well
==top==
IU
LED
Probe
LED
BW
==bottom==

Petal (3)
LED (4)
Probe (5), sac LED for UUU
IU (6), U (Draw LED, GP, LED)
LED (7)
LED (8)
GP (9), crack LEDs for RRRBBB
BW (10) get Tendrils
Tendrils (11)

or

GP (9), crack LEDs for UUUBBB, crack Petal R
BW (10), get Time Spiral
TS (11), U
Draw 7 out of (3 LED, LP, Doomsday, IU, 2 GP, BW) and have 2 untapped lands
with the remaining life and 1 blue mana floating you can draw the remaining 2 cards with GP, if those are the two last cards go on as follows
3 LED (14)
LP (15), crack for R, RU in Pool (otherwise take the second mana from a land)
BW (16), crack 2 LEDs for BBBBBB, get Tendrils
Tendris (17)

The Time Spiral route is only good with an opponent that doesn't cast instants...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MTG Junkie

Turn 2 Dark Ritual into Doomsday with a untapped land and my hand is LED,Wish,LP and a Prob.

I'm thinking cast LP,LED then cast Wish cracking LED for black getting a Infernal Contract. So far iv thought of a pile that could win but I would have to have a LP in the pile. The list I'm trying only plays one LP though.

What to do?

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What am I missing here? Why not just use Petal before DD and float the needed mana and then put it into your Pile after DD again?