Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
There're many issues with your assessments.
I don't understand your statement about cb-flooded. If you've already resolved one, it doesn't hurt to float a CB to counter cmc 2. If you're playing against tribal decks, then it doesn't matter if you happen to find 1 or 4 into your hand, they are all useless against Cavern and/or Vial in play anyway.
Nahiri is not that good against Shardless. It doesn't interact against Vision, can't protect itself from Tarpit, can't put pressure on opposing Liliana or Jace.
Goblin players like to sandbag a Matron/Ringleader in case of post-Terminus rebuilding. DnT is now doing the same with Recruiter, by slowly chaining Recruiter + Flicker to rebuild the board post-Terminus.
With your Mana base, isn't it pretty simple for Lands players to tapped down your only plains at your EoT to make 20/20 to kill you?
I don't understand the CJ in the SB, not with that Mana base.
Firstly you are not always in CB top, and you can't really float cards on top so you have to just draw the second CB which is probably going to be a dead card until we get to brainstorm it back in the deck or the first one gets destroyed.
It's also unreasonable to say that drawing more dead cards is as bad as drawing less of them, of course any CB we draw against eldrazis and such decks is going to diminish our chances to win.
On the other hand I agree with your other statements, Nahiri is not good against shardless, is borderline playable in mirror but any sorcery speed 4 drop is not really a good play anyway.
The single plain is just a mistake, we must play two of them or our taxes mu gets almost unplayable at times.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Noctalor replied very well about the 3 CB. You don't always have a top online, and top is the most commonly attacked card post board (needle, null rod). In those situations, CB is the worst card in your deck. Drawing too many of them can mean that you lose the game.
About Nahiri, I was saying shardless also because it deals with stuff like sylvan library, as well as being hard to answer directly (only pulse), and killing creatures. She is a very strong card, though I don't think she solves enough problems. I'm not really attached to her, played it as a "joke" the first time and was pleasantly surprised. But that can be a bias, as when I can resolve her, it means I was already in a position to win
About the second plains, it's interesting that you say it's so necessary. Obviously, I cut it for the MB mountain, to free some SB space, and because I have no double W cards in my 75 (apart from the Concil's Judgement - which I've switched back and forth with a 2nd explosives. It's purpose is mainly against non blue midrange decks that bring in planeswalkers. Sure most of them play wasteland, but it's the most efficient -besides counterspell- solution to a Sorin/Gideon/Elspeth/Garruk relentless or whatever nonsense. Also, it replaces FoW as a "catch-all" in these matchups. It's better than Explosives to deal with 4cmc stuff. I'm taking suggestions on how to improve this slot though, as I've never been totally convinced, play it more as a necessary evil. Countering stuff is always possible but still risky when you have no more FoW postboard against fair decks).
About lands, I've never suffered from having only 1 plains for the rishadan play you're talking about (1 tundra in your deck means you can keep fetches up in that situation. If they have several rishadans, the 2nd plains doesnt help that much). The main downside is if they're playing Ghost quarters, but the second plains doesn't save you either. 1 plains has been the standard for "predictable" lists as far as I remember (maybe minnihaj can confirm or not?) and I've cut the second one when I went with 2 predict/no entreat.
I can understand that the D&T MU requires a second plains, and sending the mountain back to the side.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kingbrago
Noctalor replied very well about the 3 CB. You don't always have a top online, and top is the most commonly attacked card post board (needle, null rod). In those situations, CB is the worst card in your deck. Drawing too many of them can mean that you lose the game.
About Nahiri, I was saying shardless also because it deals with stuff like sylvan library, as well as being hard to answer directly (only pulse), and killing creatures. She is a very strong card, though I don't think she solves enough problems. I'm not really attached to her, played it as a "joke" the first time and was pleasantly surprised. But that can be a bias, as when I can resolve her, it means I was already in a position to win
About the second plains, it's interesting that you say it's so necessary. Obviously, I cut it for the MB mountain, to free some SB space, and because I have no double W cards in my 75 (apart from the Concil's Judgement - which I've switched back and forth with a 2nd explosives. It's purpose is mainly against non blue midrange decks that bring in planeswalkers. Sure most of them play wasteland, but it's the most efficient -besides counterspell- solution to a Sorin/Gideon/Elspeth/Garruk relentless or whatever nonsense. Also, it replaces FoW as a "catch-all" in these matchups. It's better than Explosives to deal with 4cmc stuff. I'm taking suggestions on how to improve this slot though, as I've never been totally convinced, play it more as a necessary evil. Countering stuff is always possible but still risky when you have no more FoW postboard against fair decks).
About lands, I've never suffered from having only 1 plains for the rishadan play you're talking about (1 tundra in your deck means you can keep fetches up in that situation. If they have several rishadans, the 2nd plains doesnt help that much). The main downside is if they're playing Ghost quarters, but the second plains doesn't save you either. 1 plains has been the standard for "predictable" lists as far as I remember (maybe minnihaj can confirm or not?) and I've cut the second one when I went with 2 predict/no entreat.
I can understand that the D&T MU requires a second plains, and sending the mountain back to the side.
We've talked about this a few times now so I'll reiterate some of these points:
The whole point of not playing the second basic plains and wanting basic mountain instead is due to a few reasons: We have no double white cards in our deck, no ETA, no CJ, and we also want a non-wastelandable red source to flex the power of red in certain matches. Twndomn's reasons for saying that we "auto-lose" to port without a second plains isn't telling the whole story, and requires a frame of reference and some examples to illustrate.
So, you'll see more 1 plains 1 mountain configurations in Europe than in the US because of one factor and one factor alone: Lands is not as highly represented in Europe as it is in the United States, and they don't necessarily feel the port-taxing effect as live or die because they aren't being threatened by a 20/20 post port activations normally.
"But Minniehajj, what about DnT! How can we ever beat DnT without a second plains in our deck! We can never cast Terminus if they port us in our upkeep!" Yes, that's true, but if you look at the way that the 1 plains 1 mountain lists are configured these days, they don't necessarily need Terminus to win that matchup. They flex the power of the basic mountain in those scenarios and play things like Kozilek's Return, Pyroclasm, and Izzet Staticaster. 2 of those 3 effects beat port, and Mountain/Red fetches aren't likely to be ported down as the white sources are the primary concern for a lot of players. So, instead of choosing to "auto-lose" to port decks, they utilize the power of what that basic Mountain allows them to use, in cards like the red sweepers instead. Mountain overall is not great, but post-board it can be necessary, and since you don't need the second plains if you have no other WW cards, you can theoretically "get away" with not having the second basic plains.
Having discussed this point with Angelo at length, he likes the flexibility that the WW cards adds to his list and therefore would never play without them, so he's keeping 2 plains in his list. However, if he ever decided to only play Mentor as his win condition, he'd definitely go down to 1 plains (but likely have 3 Volcanic instead of the Mountain, like Bonanni's manabase).
This changes if you factor in a deck like lands, and should be accounted for as such. You can theoretically play around port by sandbagging fetches (which you should be doing anyway!) but it's definitely a valid concern if you're down to just one plains. So I would suggest the lands matchup being the one thing that requires you to have that second plains, and, if you choose to forgo it and intend to play in a metagame where Lands IS represented, you must hedge towards that somehow, if via Blood Moon/other nonbasic land hate, etc. Just know what strengths and weaknesses you are choosing to expose yourself to if you cut the second plains, or if you decide to keep it. Hope that helps!
For reference, I currently play 1 Plains 1 Mountain and switch between Pyroclasm/Blood Moon based on metagame. I will likely have both in my sideboard for my next big event.
EDIT: Mountain is also bad for OTHER reasons, but I'm explaining the position of playing it in the main deck for these players, not necessarily that I advocate for 1 plains 1 mountain. I switch things up personally all the time and will probably end up on 2 plains for my next big event.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
What are other people preparing/testing for Eternal Weekend/GP Chiba? Discussion here has been slow the past week, even though there are several big events coming up.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Kozilek's Return seems really well positioned right now. Also really liking Meddling Mage.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Minniehajj
What are other people preparing/testing for Eternal Weekend/GP Chiba? Discussion here has been slow the past week, even though there are several big events coming up.
This is my current build. It work very well but I'm still looking for some "tricks cards" that draw to include in the main.
I have 3 flex spots (2 Spell Pierce and 1 Countersepell). I tested 3 Counterbalance instead of 4, and honestly, it works good as well.
Playing only 3 CB let me not draw a second too often, while giving a flex spot for a counter spell to protect a Jace or a Mentor, and virtually reduce the number of opponent Abrupt Decay target.
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Terminus
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Wear // Tear
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rest in Peace
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pyroclasm
More I play this list and more I like it. But I sometime I want other things in the main. I was looking for an "all-round-card" like Chain of Vapor or Void Snare instead of Jace, but I didn't find some things that fulfill successfully this role. Chain of Vapor is too much dangerous to let opponent return our CB or Mentor to hand with backup to not letting us playing it back. Void Snare is too slow by being a sorcery spell. I also think about Repeal, not yet tested it.
I also tested Predict. While sometime it's very strong (end of turn Top, and with nothing relevant, etc.), most of the time I didn't find any window to get full value of predict and it is just an one-for-one spell, witch is not that powerful (maybe I play it wrong ?!).
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Minniehajj
What are other people preparing/testing for Eternal Weekend/GP Chiba? Discussion here has been slow the past week, even though there are several big events coming up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kravkenov
This is my current build. It work very well but I'm still looking for some "tricks cards" that draw to include in the main.
I have 3 flex spots (2 Spell Pierce and 1 Countersepell). I tested 3 Counterbalance instead of 4, and honestly, it works good as well.
Playing only 3 CB let me not draw a second too often, while giving a flex spot for a counter spell to protect a Jace or a Mentor, and virtually reduce the number of opponent Abrupt Decay target.
3
Snapcaster Mage3
Monastery Mentor4
Swords to Plowshares4
Brainstorm4
Ponder4
Sensei's Divining Top3
Counterbalance4
Force of Will2
Spell Pierce1
Counterspell4
Terminus2
Jace, the Mind Sculptor2
Engineered Explosives4
Flooded Strand4
Scalding Tarn2
Arid Mesa3
Tundra2
Volcanic Island2
Island2
Plains1
Mountain2
Flusterstorm3
Pyroblast2
Wear // Tear2
Containment Priest2
Surgical Extraction1
Rest in Peace2
Izzet Staticaster1
Pyroclasm
More I play this list and more I like it. But I sometime I want other things in the main. I was looking for an "all-round-card" like Chain of Vapor or Void Snare instead of Jace, but I didn't find some things that fulfill successfully this role. Chain of Vapor is too much dangerous to let opponent return our CB or Mentor to hand with backup to not letting us playing it back. Void Snare is too slow by being a sorcery spell. I also think about Repeal, not yet tested it.
I also tested Predict. While sometime it's very strong (end of turn Top, and with nothing relevant, etc.), most of the time I didn't find any window to get full value of predict and it is just an one-for-one spell, witch is not that powerful (maybe I play it wrong ?!).
I tested an angels list for the GPT I played in last week for Chiba and got my ass handed to me by Eldrazi, Show and Tell and Esper Stoneblade. I was able to beat D&T so the tournament wasn't a total loss. My takeaways were that Entreat is a little too slow against Eldrazi and Stoneblade runs enough countermagic to stop it from resolving. (Show and Tell just wins when they go Boseiju into S&T into hardcasted Emrakul) I am now firmly on the 3 mentor plan. Currently I have been testing with 1 volcanic and 1 mountain.
As far as flexible cards, I am still in love with 1 main EE and 1 SB EE. I like how the card triggers Mentor, how it can handle a permanent of any type and that it can 2 for 1. It is slow but it has lots of potential to keep you alive.
EDIT: Boseiju into S&T into Omni, Hardcast Emrakul
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Misersoneof
I tested an angels list for the GPT I played in last week for Chiba and got my ass handed to me by Eldrazi, Show and Tell and Esper Stoneblade. I was able to beat D&T so the tournament wasn't a total loss. My takeaways were that Entreat is a little too slow against Eldrazi and Stoneblade runs enough countermagic to stop it from resolving. (Show and Tell just wins when they go Boseiju into S&T into hardcasted Emrakul) I am now firmly on the 3 mentor plan. Currently I have been testing with 1 volcanic and 1 mountain.
As far as flexible cards, I am still in love with 1 main EE and 1 SB EE. I like how the card triggers Mentor, how it can handle a permanent of any type and that it can 2 for 1. It is slow but it has lots of potential to keep you alive.
EDIT: Boseiju into S&T into Omni, Hardcast Emrakul
Just addressing that last point, there's a trick that you can use to actually beat that "nut draw": Boseiju into Show and Tell, you put in Snapcaster or Clique, to create a trigger that the opponent cannot respond to at sorcery speed, then blast or wear//tear the Omni in response to your own trigger. It's definitely beatable!
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Sometimes you can also beat this draw with a terminus game 1 (they need to brick on their draw step for the extra turn). I've played a bit of omnishow lately and boseiju is great, but not so game breaking against miracles if you don't have the exact S&T into omni into Emrakul.
I'm still testing for Eternal Weekend Paris and I have streamlined my list a little, cutting clunky or random cards. I've added a single spell snare and was impressed by it. I may test a second 1.
Still on a 20 lands, 3 mentor, 2 predict and 3 CB build.
My SB was:
2 Pyroclasm
3 Flusterstorm
1 Snapcaster Mage (4th one)
1 Counterspell (the 3rd one)
2 Wear/Tear
2 Surgical Extraction
4 REB/Pyroblast split
Last weekend I failed to get my byes at the trial, going:
2-1 against Merfolk (lost G1 to a chalice on 1, no MD way of getting rid of it)
1-2 against BURG Control. Crazy deck, and good player. It was halfway between Shardless and grixis delver (snapcasters, deathrites, goyfs, Jace, K-command). 2 Very close games, lost the 3rd to mulligan into hymn to tourarch + flusterstorm to counter my spell snare
2-1 Against Junk midrange (Bobs, Liliana, Lingering Souls, tourarch etc).
2-0 Against Eldrazi, no turn 1 chalice for my opponent, I win both games with mentors (he had lots of hate from the side: wasteland stranglers, all is dust, and MD dismembers)
ID against omnitell
Lost the quarterfinal to the Eldrazi player from R4. I felt that I didn't play this match optimally, I went all in on a mentor plan but he was packing a lot of hate. I fell 1 prowess trigger short of killing him G2 and took an all is dust. I was trying to beat his board with my mentor, but maybe I should have looked for a terminus instead. I think I have to be the aggressor though, I've never won against Eldrazi by taking the control role
I'm considering Kozilek's return over Pyroclasm for the sideboard, as they seem a lot better against D&T. I also think I need some kind of land hate: back to basics/blood moon/ruination or From the Ashes. I think Moon is the better option (3cmc, doesnt get hit by Warping Wail).
What is you preferred option for a SB card? Do you think it's worth it to pack SB hate that is mostly for Eldrazi (Moon still has good applications outside of this specific MU though)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I'm surprised Vlcek and Cadei went back to 2 Counterspells, glad the Predict fever is over, for the Europeans at the least.
are we cheating on graveyard hate too much? 2 Surgical, some even cut down to 1? I guess Priest is... semi graveyard SB.
It's almost as if you don't look at tournament results if you think Predict versions aren't doing well.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kravkenov
More I play this list and more I like it. But I sometime I want other things in the main. I was looking for an "all-round-card" like Chain of Vapor or Void Snare instead of Jace, but I didn't find some things that fulfill successfully this role. Chain of Vapor is too much dangerous to let opponent return our CB or Mentor to hand with backup to not letting us playing it back. Void Snare is too slow by being a sorcery spell. I also think about Repeal, not yet tested it.
I also tested Predict. While sometime it's very strong (end of turn Top, and with nothing relevant, etc.), most of the time I didn't find any window to get full value of predict and it is just an one-for-one spell, witch is not that powerful (maybe I play it wrong ?!).
If you are Looking for a boomerang effect - and this is a big if - I'd go for Echoing Truth. Deals with tokes and duplicates. Not an effect that many people are likely to run however.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
prepare4robots
If you are Looking for a boomerang effect - and this is a big if - I'd go for Echoing Truth. Deals with tokes and duplicates. Not an effect that many people are likely to run however.
Unexpectedly Absent is a much better solution if you are looking for a bouncer, at least card disadvantage is not an issue and the card can also be used as a permanent solution from time to time.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Unexpectedly Absent is a much better solution if you are looking for a bouncer, at least card disadvantage is not an issue and the card can also be used as a permanent solution from time to time.
U-absent don't produce CDA man .
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mechint
U-absent don't produce CDA man .
Yes, as I said.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Noctalor
Unexpectedly Absent is a much better solution if you are looking for a bouncer, at least card disadvantage is not an issue and the card can also be used as a permanent solution from time to time.
Absent suffers from the same problem that Council's Judgement does with the WW casting cost. It is instant speed but the trade off for instant speed is the inability to permanently remove something, which you mention, AND the inability to handle certain things with protection (Mom, TNN, Emrakul). I don't think the trade off is worth it personally and would rather run CJ.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Minniehajj
Just addressing that last point, there's a trick that you can use to actually beat that "nut draw": Boseiju into Show and Tell, you put in Snapcaster or Clique, to create a trigger that the opponent cannot respond to at sorcery speed, then blast or wear//tear the Omni in response to your own trigger. It's definitely beatable!
Love doing that; only problem is that 1) they'll just free-cast a FoW or Flusterstorm or 2) we don't have enough mana up by that time to make that play.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Misersoneof
Absent suffers from the same problem that Council's Judgement does with the WW casting cost. It is instant speed but the trade off for instant speed is the inability to permanently remove something, which you mention, AND the inability to handle certain things with protection (Mom, TNN, Emrakul). I don't think the trade off is worth it personally and would rather run CJ.
Yes, double W is a problem. In fact I dont really know what I'm looking for. I just want a strong effect to deal with problematic permanent, cheaper than Jace, that can be cast proactively (typically, not a counter-spell). The boomerang effect is a thing I was exploring, but not with full enthusiasm. The thing is with a boomerang effect, the targeted card will come back.
Until now, I didn't find any thing to play instead of Jace (will re-test Predict), so for paper-tournament, I will stick with the list I published few post before.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Love doing that; only problem is that 1) they'll just free-cast a FoW or Flusterstorm or 2) we don't have enough mana up by that time to make that play.
If they have it, they have it.
It requires 1 mana to do that; Snapcaster comes in off Show, triggers on something and you wear their omni.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
without Vendilion Clique, the SneakShow matchup becomes 30-70 to me..
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Love doing that; only problem is that 1) they'll just free-cast a FoW or Flusterstorm or 2) we don't have enough mana up by that time to make that play.
I disagree, omni is not likely to combo fast against us, as they try to get a boseiju online first, and we should get at least to 3 lands in play before they go off, which is enough to cast a pyro/wear and 3 more counters.
Despite losing quite badly preside I think we are not too far behind postboard.
