@charos
If you read the posts, the deck is already light on threats. You have nothing to sacrifice to cabal therapy to make use of its full potential.
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@charos
If you read the posts, the deck is already light on threats. You have nothing to sacrifice to cabal therapy to make use of its full potential.
I switch between decks quite often. I played TES a lot the last months but now I wanted something which wouldn't give me a headache after 8 rounds hence Ichorid. The Rock is definitely my pet deck though.Quote:
Originally Posted by TiB
I agree Monastery is good in a more controlling list like this (I have played it in previous lists); I just don't want to play to many utility lands so I'd be inclined to play the Karakas in place of the Stronghold for now. I already replaced the Canopy with a Savannah.
I top 4'd in a local tourney last week, and a few observations to share with everyone.
1. I played the list with Gerrald's Verdict and Mox Daimond from SCG Open, and feel like Noble would be a much better inclusion than the Mox.
2. I mained 4 Vindicate. However, I feel like both Vindicate and Maestorm Pulse have a place in the deck. Vindicate won me at least two games by mana screwing my opponent. Although, there are times, especially against Merfolk and Gob, where if I have Pulse instead of Vindicate, it would be game ender. I think I'm leaning towards some combination of Vindicate in main and Pulse in SB.
3. Dueling Ground was a beast. Resolving it against Zoo or Gob = GG. There were games where I resolve DG first to slow the aggro deck down,then fetch an Ith to completely nullify the opposing deck. However, I lost a game to Merfolk because he had 2 Reejay to tap down my Knight and Maze. However, I still don't think DG was awesome.
4. I maindecked 2 Extirpates, and they were useful in almost every single game. I think with Survival on the loose, maining Extirpate is the way to go.
I am playing this deck, I know it is light on threats. Though I was wondering if it is better because:Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
- Mostly it costs B instead of BB
- Also we are already playing Thoughseize therefore it is more likely that it will hit stuff.
- Lastly a list with Hierarch/Qasali has more things to sac.
So, anybody tried it?
Noble/Pridemage has much more value on the table than as Therapy fodder. Unless your deck has 100% disposable creatures (tokens, recur), I'd say stay away from Therapy as everything you want it to do, we already have comparable options available to us.
I would say the benefits of Mox Diamond over Noble Hierarch are as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by alphacat
1. It speeds up the deck faster than Hierarch by enabling 2cc plays on turn one (e.g. Hymn to Tourach, Gerrard's Verdict, Dark Confidant), the turn one Thoughtseize -> Wasteland play, or the turn two Hymn -> Wasteland play, etc.
2. Doesn't die to creature removal (ex. Firespout) or your own EE on 1.
3. Grows Knight of the Reliquary (granted so does Exalted, but this is more permanent)
4. Gives you all three colors
5. You don't need to fetch a nonbasic (in most BGW Rock decks, Bayou is the only green source)
IMO the card disadvantage is acceptable because the deck has at least 10 ways to create card advantage with Hymn effects and Confidant.
Getting double black is very important, and the difference between Hymning on turn 1 and turn 2 can often be the game, especially against decks that frequently keep 1 land hands.
Thing is, you can't keep a hand with 1 Mox Diamond and 1 Land unless you also have a Top.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
What about Chrome Mox? Theoretically it should be pretty decent. It allows you to run less land than Mox Diamond.
Have a weekly semi-causal Legacy playgroup, this Wednesday, play "Rock",
Conclusions:
-Dueling grounds is a must in the board, both matches I lost were very close, and if I had a dueling ground I would have easily won. Still came 2nd though, so no worries. Of note: I crushed both survival decks 2-0, wasn't even close either game, maindeck extirpate is awesome.
-Extirpate maindeck = BOSS
-Dark Confidant - Land him and go the control route, NOT aggro. Very effective this way.
-Mox Diamond is far superior to any mana dork. With the format being so fast, a T1 hmyn, or thoughtsieze/extirpate or T2 vindicate, deed, ee activation is HUGE.
1-0 BG Survival
Round 1: T1 Thoughtsieze, T2 Hymn, T3 Confidant - GG
Boarded in 2 extirpate, 2 duress
Round 2: T1 Wasteland, T2 Vindicate Land- GG
1-1 Zoo
Both games extremely close. MVP was extirpate in the main. 1st game extirpated 2 PTE in his opening hand and his lightning bolts. Both games came down to a our KOTR and Goyf's staring each other down. Dueling grounds would have easily won me the game had I utilizes it. Although, I sided in: 2 Jitte's, 2 Perniscious Deed, 2 EE ...I didn't draw any of my sweepers both games I lost despite having BOB+TOP :(
1-2 Elves
Got swarmed both games...uughh. Again, dueling grounds would have been great. His main play is natural order into progenitus turn 2, but I had Karakas, so no worries, just got swarmed, and again, drew none of my sweepers :(
2-2 UG Survival
Round 1: T1 Play swamp, Mox diamond, Thoughtsieze, take Survival, extirpate survival. Rest of match was on cruise control. (UG survival doesn't play fauna shaman) so I outclassed him with my creatures.
Siding: I sided out my hymn to tourach's, vindicates, and sided in perniscious deed's, aven mindcensors, and extirpates, duress
Round 2: Long game where I eventually established superior board control and beat for the win. This game I allowed him to get his survival engine online just so I could extirpate his Vengevines. Then dropped deed to clear board.
3-2 UW Tempo
Both games were long and drawn out. I never really felt threatened during the matches, as this deck relies on cheap card advantage tricks which are negated by our discard, and our creatures are superior. EE, Extirpate and BOB were MVP's in this matchup. Once I extirpated his mother of runes, I didn't feel like there was any threat that couldn't easily be answered. Also, damn, weathered wayfarer is really annoying to play against, really makes me wish I had a crucible.
Edit: Actually, I did lose a round to flying Serra Avengers...oops.
4-2 RG Berserk Combo
Not much to say here, never got to see how his deck worked, as both games I picked apart his hands T1 and T2. His deck relied on getting a creature on the field, then casting enchantments and berserks on it, playing mana acceleration for a T1 kill. Again, can't state how effective a T1 Mox diamond is.
Maindeck
Extirpate X 2
Thoughtseize X 4
Hymn to Tourach X 4
Vindicate X 4
Swords to Plowshares X 4
Tarmogoyf X 4
KOTR X 3
Dark Confidant X 4
Sensei's Divining Top X 3
Engineered Explosives X 2
Mox Diamond X 3
Land
Bayou X 3
Scrubland X 3
Marsh Flats X 4
Verdant Catacombs X 4
Karakas X 1
Horizon Canopy X 1
Swamp X 2
Plains X 1
Wasteland X 4
Maze of Ith X 1
Sideboard
Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale X 1
Bojuka Bog X 1
P.Deed X 2
EE X 2
Jitte X 2
Extirpate X 2
Duress X 2
Aven Mindcensor X 3
@ Wess
Thanks for the input. How did you feel when you were drawing Moxes later in games though? Did it end up being a dead card? Thoughts about adding anymore aggression or did you feel your creature setup is adequate?
@ Maelstrom Pulse
My list doesn't run Tarmogoyf's, so hitting goyf's wouldn't be issue with me, my creature variety offers different methods of aggression. Vindicate can do the job, but Pulse adds a nice element to my gaming options.
@ Charos
Cabal Therapy is nice, but not for this form of Rock. Maybe Eva Green G/B Sui. Even with Volrath's Stronghold, Therapy doesn't fit this decktype.
@ Dueling Grounds
I love that idea! Trying to get 3x for my S/B and can't wait to see the results.
@ Keys
I've tried and dislike Mox Diamond. I understand the potential of what a T1 can do, coming from the older Vintage setting, but I am seeing bettere results with Hierarch. Once I am able to get 2x Gerrard's Verdict, I'm replacing my Hynms with them. I won't need BB for anything other then late game cards. Which at that point, Mox is dead to me.
I got 10th at Jupiter Games on 11/13, winning 4x Tundra and 4x Scrubs with this list:
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Gerrard's Verdict
4x StP
4x Vindicate
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Mox Diamond
1x Pernicious Deed
3x Scrubland
2x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Wasteland
Sideboard:
4x Engineered Plague
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant
3x Diabolic Edict
3x Extirpate
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
I went 6 - 2, beating UGw Survival, Survival Elves, Enchantress, UBr Faeries, UG Survival, and Affinity. I lost to UB Storm and UGB Landstill/Control. The worst card in the deck was Gerrard's Verdict, though admittedly I didn't play against Zoo, the matchup where it shines. I don't think there is a legitmate argument to running Noble Hierarch over Mox Diamond. Turn 1 Bob or Hymn is pretty broken. Fetching a swamp and playing Diamond allows you to cast most of your deck without you ever being vulnerable to land destruction. Hierarch forces you to fetch bayou, which is pretty bad, and doesn't even add for black, which is a far more important color than green in the deck. The board was solid, but the maindeck and sideboard Deeds could be EEs. Dueling Ground seems cute too.
Contrary to what one would think, drawing moxes mid-late game is still a good play, I was almost always happy to see a mox diamond in the late game. The reasons being:Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeinVoncy
1. No life loss to Dark Confidant (revealing mox, same as why EE is also better than deed), seriously, BOB almost killed me in multiple close match-ups, having extra zero's is great (as opposed to 1 mana dorks).
2. Mox allows you to pump and abuse KOTR while still having stable mana (mana dorks don't have this benefit). Especially when fetching a maze of ith or bojuka bog.
3. Pitch mox to the yard to pump goyf (again, mana dorks can't do this).
4. Takes the sting out of price for progress, winter orb, etc. I had to wasteland my own duals sometimes to keep alive :(
You don't need anymore aggression. I was playing it more as a control deck, which I think it is. Very rarely would you just try to race and out-aggro an opposing deck. Most of my games came down killing the opponent with one creature after establishing board control. More that a few games I killed with BOB...slowly.
Thanks for sharing your results. I'm going to play a similar "Dark Horizons" list at a tournament this weekend, and I have a few questions:Quote:
Originally Posted by Genericcactus
How was maindeck Pernicious Deed? I'm torn between EE and Deed in that spot, since EE doesn't bolt you with bob and it doesn't always blow up your moxes. That said, Deed is a beast...
Was the life loss from Thoughtseize ever a problem for you? I never like revealing them with bob because it's another 3 damage (yeah 13 ways to bolt yourself off Confidant seems rough). Right now I'm testing a split with Inquisition and it's working fine.
The sideboard is probably the most debatable. Can you explain your card choices and how they performed? Why not Duress? Were the Edicts and Elspeth any good?
Thanks!
I haven't been around here too much lately... but a couple things.
Mox Diamond is much better than Noble Hierarch in this deck. It makes us more aggressive. Noble doesn't. Both are almost dead draws late in the game, but Noble doesn't put Goyf out of Bolt range and let's say you want to attack with two Goyfs or a KotR and a Goyf? Too bad, no +1/+1 from the Noble. You can't keep a one land/Noble hand any more than you could a one land/Diamond hand. Nobles get hit by all sorts of removal. If you seem the slightest bit mana screwed, don't doubt that your Noble has a Bolt aimed right at him.
I run 1 Elspeth, 4 Bobs, 4 Goyfs, and 4 KotR. I've tried Terravores, but double Green was too difficult. I very rarely have trouble with not having a threat. Perhaps you need to bait more and rely more on hand disruption. Between that and Bob/Top, killing them usually isn't an issue. My only trouble is dying to fast aggro every now and then.
Path is very hot against Merfolk. Discard is good there... but more removal is better in my opinion. We have a much better late game than they do. I SB +4 PtE, +2 Deed, +2 Choke for my 8 Discard. In my experience, they can't handle that kind of board control.
I'm still a big fan of Sejiri Steppe. When you have a Maze out, you can attack without ever having to worry about your Knight getting removed. Monastery is good, but I'd rather keep my Knight than play a smaller creature that can't attack until next turn anyways. You could run both I suppose, but I really don't know why you'd care about fetching a manland when you already have a KotR. I choose Karakas over it MD and Bog in the SB.
I used to run EE, but I recently changed to Deeds. My thinking was this: Most of my important permanents are at 2cmc. The most problematic cmc's are 1 and 2. Either way, if I EE or Deed for 1, I avoid most of my permanents. Either way, if I use EE or Deed for 2, I hit my 2cmc dudes. So why wouldn't I rather run the more powerful Deed so that I don't have to worrying about frustrating situations where they have a lot of guys with varying cmcs. Not to mention, Deed is the only Enchantment in the deck for Goyf. There are only two legitimate advantages to EE in my opinion: It gets around Counterbalance and it can kill Planeswalkers. However, I think Deed at 3cmc is pretty tough for CT anyways and we have a whole lot of ways to get rid of Planeswalkers MD already.
I never actually drew my main deck Deed throughout the tournament except for against Enchantress when the match was already in hand. It blows up moxes but is generally a more powerful effect than EE. The match ups where Deed is best, Tribal decks and Zoo, EE is probably equally good. A close call.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
Life loss off of Thoughtseize was never relevant, though I did not play against Zoo or Merfolk where my life total becomes more of a factor. I am considering cutting Verdicts for two Inquisitions maindeck.
Inquisition is just better than Duress in this deck. The only card it doesn't hit is FoW which I would rarely take anyways since my opponent 2-for-1-ing himself is good for an attrition based deck like Dark Horizons. Being able to grab both a Fauna Shaman or a Survival is amazing. Edict is the best instant speed removal card available considering Path flies in the face of my LD plan. Elspeth is beast in the mirror and against control decks.
The only thing about Inquisition is it can't get Jace, Humility, Moat, Wrath, and other cards in the Landstill matchup. Duress is strictly better against storm combo as well.
I feel like Inquisition and Thoughtseize are competing more for the maindeck spots, and Duress is best in the Sideboard.
Diabolic Edict is just no substitution for PtE. Against Tribal decks where you need the extra removal to keep lords off the table, they will simply sac a token or useless creature. Edict is simply not spot removal. If you don't run Path, I might consider Ghastly Demise, Smother, or Condemn. Unless you see a lot of NO, Edict is a wasted slot.
Landstill with Humility, Wrath, and Moat is a bad deck that makes up less than 1% of any given meta. I'd rather lose to that than play Duress which is worse than Inquisition in almost all match ups. Duress may be strictly better than Inquisition in the storm match up (unless they play Bob), but it gets a total of THREE cards more (at most) in the deck: 1x Ad Nauseum, 1x Tendrils, and 1x Empty the Warrens, with Ad Nauseum being the only one I would want to hit with a Duress.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
I agree with all of this, EXCEPT... that Edict is an answer to a resolved Iona, whereas PtE will get shut out with the rest of your removal. Ghastly Demise, Smother, and Comdemn do not help either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Deathmark perhaps?
Ghastly Demise might get there, but I agree it's not ideal. Deathmark is actually pretty good. I think the most versatile option is Karakas which is MDable. The top deck that uses Iona now is GW Survival and they have enough creatures where Edict won't get there anyways. Against GW Survival I'd probably board +4 PtE (for VV), +4 Extirpate and drop the Vindicate and Hymns. With my Karakas MD, I feel pretty good. When you talk about SBs you have to make sure to put it into context of a deck. :)