[Deck] Spanish Inquisition (B/x Storm Combo)

If you're discussing Pact SI, I think your MD protection package is Autumn's Veil just so you have another Green card for your Skyshroud Cutter, the problem with Xantid Swarm is that you have too little of reliable green sources to cast it compared to Autumn's Veil since Summoner's Pact is a no go.

If you're discussing SITES, I think it's a poor choice considering MD Stifle and SB Flusterstorms are in vogue in aggro-control right now, Empty the Warrens just doesn't offer the defensive coverage to storm decks it used to.

If you're discussing BUG Storm, I think it's fine to cut Gitaxian Probe, Xantid Swarm doesn't care how many cards they have in their hand so you can make the deck redundant with a 2nd Ad Nauseam, a 15th land and Chrome Mox(es). Also I think the Fetchland, Dryad Arbor, Green Sun's Zenith and Xantid Swarm package could possibly fuel the Draw 4 deck, but the issue with the draw 4 deck is that it needs to be able to cost effectively play a 2nd creature durring the draw 4 chains to cast a 2nd Culling and you can't do that so well without Summoner's Pact or Kobolds. With Nauseam you just have to get one Culling off, but anway something like ...

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
8 Draw 4's
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
7 G Fetch
3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

Maybe there is some way to support the D4 chains with like ESG?

Has anybody playtested a list with both Summoner's Pact and Burning Wish? Essentially it's about taking some Belcher-esque elements into PSI without the MD warping too much as a whole.

+ Easier to pilot for storm newbies like myself
+ Provides more outs to Chalice of the Void, especially versus nonblue Chalice decks (Eldrazi, monored stompy, loam) by e.g. BW-> Deconstruct
+ Provides more outs to hatebears (Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist) with BW-> Pyroclasm
+ Provides more outs to Leyline of Sanctity with BW-> Reverent Silence and BW->EtW
+ BW->Tendrils works in several storm chains where you have enough mana fir the kill but IT->Tendrils is impossible because you have a second IT, GCB and/or D4s stuck in your hand which "fizzles" the IT
+ Can run less "kill spells" (ToA) and more tutors (BW) in MD, which seems like a plus to me since the deck mulligans better thanks to BW + LED synergy
+ Possibility to short chain BW->EtW in g1 (could later turn out to be a useless feature or waste of SB space, though)
+ Less lose-the-game fizzling after resolved Pacts based on my personal goldfishing
+ More consistent t2 kills based on my personal goldfishing
+ Still faster than Belcher based on my personal goldfishing
+/- Less D4s in the list
- Going off BW->ToA costs extra mana compared to "naturally" drawing the ToA
- Less redundant black vards to Imprint in the list
- Wishboard takes up SB slots
- Red mana for BW can be problematic
- Slightly slower overall than SI without BW, although more consistent due to less fizzling


I have been goldfishing with the following:

Sorcery Tutors (7)
3x Burning Wish
3x Infernal Tutor
1x Dark Petition

Sorcery D4s (6)
3x Cruel Bargain
3x Infernal Contract

Other Sorcery (6)
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Land Grant
1x Tendrils of Agony

Artifact (14)
4x Chrome Mox
2x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Creature (7)
1x Deathrite Shaman
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Skullwinder
1x Wild Cantor

Instant (16)
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual
4x Summoner's Pact

Land (2)
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor

MD flex slot (2)
1x Slithermuse
1x Tinder Wall
...any alternative flex slot recommendations?

Sideboard (17) - trying to narrow this down to 15

Wishboard (7)
1x Balance of Power (Useless?)
1x Deconstruct (is Shattering Spree better?)
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Infernal Tutor (for when you need that extra +1 storm after BW resolves. Could be 4 IT - 2 BW in MD to save 1 SB slot? Or stupidly enough have 1 extra BW in the SB in this slot?)
1x Pyroclasm
1x Reverent Silence (waste ot SB space ... or super useful vs Leyline of Sanctity?)
1x Tendrils of Agony

Others (10)
4x Lotus Bloom
2x Autumn's Veil
4x Carpet of Flowers

While I've not tested the list you posted, why would you play this over SI-TES if you want to run burning wish?

Pact shuts out BW > EtW. You also have a harder time making R because you can't imprint Kobolds. You also lose out on the Kobold/EtW/Cabal Therapy interaction for clearing counters and protecting your goblins.

It seems to me that SI-TES has all the advantages you are looking for (plus others, like an actual mana base, if you want it), and fewer of the disadvantages.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

While I've not tested the list you posted, why would you play this over SI-TES if you want to run burning wish?

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Because I have a "gut feeling" that access to GCB lines of play in g1/g2 on the draw against random non-blue storm hate (CotV, Ancient Tomb into Thorn of Amethyst/Warping Wail) can be beneficial in my FLGS metagame. Cabal Therapy on the draw is too little, too late.

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Originally Posted by Karhumies

Because I have a "gut feeling" that access to GCB lines of play in g1/g2 on the draw against random non-blue storm hate (CotV, Ancient Tomb into Thorn of Amethyst/Warping Wail) can be beneficial in my FLGS metagame. Cabal Therapy on the draw is too little, too late.

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Well, tuning for your meta is as good a reason as any, I suppose.

Alright, here's a more considered (albeit, untested) response.

1) If you want to generate R, get serious about it. Drop ESG for SSG.

2) Pact seems wrong for this approach, especially if you have dropped ESG (above). Pact requires a 'win now' approach, whereas both Belcher and EtW want to win over a turn or two. I really don't see how Pact is optimal if you want to run both of these win conditions. I'd lose the Pact package and run Kobolds. They imprint for R, but also make your combo chains smoother, as CtW is +3 mana (in PSI CtW is only +2 mana if you have already made your land drop or can't find Arbor).

3) If you can generate R, Past in Flames is simply amazing. Unlike some of our other tutor targets, PiF is still good when you draw into it mid combo. Even if you don't have the mana for it, you can often crack an LED or two, flash it back, and then win the game. I've not been able to make it work consistently in PSI because in your opening hand it is just as dead as everything else, but doesn't even have a useful imprint. You don't have that problem.

4) If you drop Pact, Slithermuse is probably better as EtW. Between IGG/PiF (for when you can float mana) and EtW (for when you can't), I'm not sure when you actually want to tutor for Slithermuse.

Actually, I think that could be very strong. You could board in Belchers, Therapies and Duress against blue, while still having space for a bit of a wishboard.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Alright, here's a more considered (albeit, untested) response.

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Thanks for the input!

Yes, U Slithermuse has been horrible in a list with BGR mana colors. Dropping it for an on-color card (EtW) seems sensible.

Pact has been half of the time tutor for Dryad Arbor for CtW target, half of the time tutor for ESG/Tinder Wall for extra mana, but occasionally tutor for Wild Cantor to turn G mana into B mana. Losing out the Wild cantor tutoring might hurt a little bit. Especially since Pact into Cantor or Tinder Wall has been an excellent method to get 5->7 cards in the gy to get threshold for Cabal Ritual, which allows easy going off from there onwards.

I had not really considered running Kobolds before as imprintable CtW targets and replacing ESG with SSG before. This definitely sounds goldfish-worthy. Suddenly, the deck might not need green mana anymore, so I guess I need to re-think the mana base as well.

Hello, I am new to this archetype and wanted to take a couple decklists for a spin. What are the current couple of major variants and some quick cliffs notes on them?

Check first post, lots of good stuff.

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Originally Posted by MDHackbert

Hello, I am new to this archetype and wanted to take a couple decklists for a spin. What are the current couple of major variants and some quick cliffs notes on them?

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Broadly, there are three viable versions of SI: P(act)SI, (Land)G(rant)SI, and B(urning Wish)SI/SI-TES.

You can find more details, and base lists, in the initial primer, but PSI is green/black, and is the fastest, most all in version. It is also considered the hardest to pilot; in addition to hideously complex lines of play, failed storm chains often just lose you the game, thanks to Summoner's Pact.

GSI is also green/black, but also runs a large number of 'tall men' - 0 casting cost artifact creatures that act as early game blockers and fuel for the Culling Engine.

BSI is the 'slowest' (with an mere 50% estimated turn 1 win rate for the best pilots), but runs black/red with Kobolds instead of tallmen. This allows the deck to play Burning Wish (much like TES, which is why it is often called SI-TES), and so has much better odds of dealing with random hate in games 2 & 3, thanks to a modest wish-board. Because Empty the Warrens allows for some shorter storm chains, it is generally considered the easiest list to play, albeit only in comparison to other SI lists.

Edit - Here is an old SI-TES tournament report that gives you an idea of how the deck plays: http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2011/0...stuart-taylor/

Thanks, I'll check that out.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

If you're new to the deck I'd suggest,

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
7 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual

The problem with Pact SI, as innovative as it is, is Land Grant will always give villains a free Gitxian Probe and turn their discard and counter spells into land destruction. If you learn to play the deck by using lands and creatures, then you'll learn how to slow play, win small and kill with a single or double Tendrils of Agony. You also give yourself more ways to win, by being able to SB in Empty the Warrens and/or Past in Flames and depending on whether or not you want to risk Stifle and Wasteland you can use a 4 Fetch Land/3 Dual Land mana base in order to side in answers from either green or red.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

If you're new to the deck I'd suggest,

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
7 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual

The problem with Pact SI, as innovative as it is, is Land Grant will always give villains a free Gitxian Probe and turn their discard and counter spells into land destruction. If you learn to play the deck by using lands and creatures, then you'll learn how to slow play, win small and kill with a single or double Tendrils of Agony. You also give yourself more ways to win, by being able to SB in Empty the Warrens and/or Past in Flames and depending on whether or not you want to risk Stifle and Wasteland you can use a 4 Fetch Land/3 Dual Land mana base in order to side in answers from either green or red.

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So the Kobolds over tallmen here are to be able to exile to mox, instead of not, and then also providing red from mox for SB cards?

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Originally Posted by MDHackbert

So the Kobolds over tallmen here are to be able to exile to mox, instead of not, and then also providing red from mox for SB cards?

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Basically; Swamp, Chrome Mox and imprint Crimson Kobold, Cabal Ritual and Draw 4 is a line of play which makes the original list more reliable - imprinting for red mana is only relevant if you're MDing Empty the Warrens over Ill Gotten Gains or you're SBing in Empty the Warrens over Tendrils of Agony. There are transformational SBs that can take advantage of being on the play, for instance you can SB out Ill Gotten Gains, 3 Tendrils of Agony and 4 Cabal Therapy for 4 Empty the Warrens and 4 Simian Spirit Guide and put them on Force of Will or no Force of Will where kobolds imprinting for red mana is crucial. The MD Ill Gotten Gains is training wheels vs fair decks and you can protect the loop vs counter spells with a Kobold and Cabal Therapy, but if you play vs more blue decks then you'll want MD Empty the Warrens for game one and then Past in Flames for game 2 so you can mix up your Infernal Tutor strategy vs their hate.

I think the original list is better than Pact SI, it just used Land Grant and artifact creatures for no really good reason - giving away Gitaxian Probes, turning discard and counter spells into land destruction and Bayou -> Cabal Therapy exposing you to Wasteland isn't worth another point for Storm and Threshold, imprinting for green mana or playing Goblin Charbelcher.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Basically; Swamp, Chrome Mox and imprint Crimson Kobold, Cabal Ritual and Draw 4 is a line of play which makes the original list more reliable - imprinting for red mana is only relevant if you're MDing Empty the Warrens over Ill Gotten Gains or you're SBing in Empty the Warrens over Tendrils of Agony. There are transformational SBs that can take advantage of being on the play, for instance you can SB out Ill Gotten Gains, 3 Tendrils of Agony and 4 Cabal Therapy for 4 Empty the Warrens and 4 Simian Spirit Guide and put them on Force of Will or no Force of Will where kobolds imprinting for red mana is crucial. The MD Ill Gotten Gains is training wheels vs fair decks and you can protect the loop vs counter spells with a Kobold and Cabal Therapy, but if you play vs more blue decks then you'll want MD Empty the Warrens for game one and then Past in Flames for game 2 so you can mix up your Infernal Tutor strategy vs their hate.

I think the original list is better than Pact SI, it just used Land Grant and artifact creatures for no really good reason - giving away Gitaxian Probes, turning discard and counter spells into land destruction and Bayou -> Cabal Therapy exposing you to Wasteland isn't worth another point for Storm and Threshold, imprinting for green mana or playing Goblin Charbelcher.

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The real question is if you care about Goblin Charbelcher. If you don't, you win a lot by just playing 6-8 lands instead of 2 lands + 4 bayouLand Grant. Tall Men enabling Mox Opal and Therapy flashback are non-trivial. Outside of IMS availability (which skipping belcher or playing Tallman + mox opal or Pact all help with) is that relying on draw4s results in a lot of fizzling situations that put you in topdeck mode (with a ton of really bad topdecks). Tallman help with that, but not so much that it isn't among the top two problems. That's the major issue I was trying to solve with SAINT (to maximize situations where you either draw enough cards to win or put a win condition into play), which I still believe is a strictly better deck than Pact SI, Bg SI, or Br SI.

Edit: s/bayou/Land Grant/

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Actually, I think that could be very strong. You could board in Belchers, Therapies and Duress against blue, while still having space for a bit of a wishboard.

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First goldfish attempt:

Sorcery (21)
3x Burning Wish
4x Cruel Bargain
2x Empty the Warrens
1x Ill-Gotten Gains / Past in Flames
4x Infernal Contract
2x Infernal Tutor
4x Land Grant
1x Tendrils of Agony

Artifact (13)
4x Chrome Mox
1x Goblin Charbelcher / 3rd Empty the Warrens
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Instant (12)
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual

Creature (11)
3x Crimson Kobolds
3x Crookshank Kobolds
1x Manaforge Cinder / 7th Kobold
4x Simian Spirit Guide

Land (3)
2x Bayou
1x Taiga

I have to say, I am not 100% convinced. Getting the initial first black mana to go off is too much dependant on Land Grant resolving. There are way less black cards to imprint with the red cards thrown in, Taiga does not provide B mana and there is no Pact to tutor for Wild Cantor for G->B color filtering. If the opponent begins on the play with t1 spot discard to take out land grant/petal/chrome mox, way more hands turn into bricks than I would like. Not to even mention getting opened up to Wasteland and t1 moon effects (monored stompy, some big red builds) compared to running just Swamps.

I think I am off to goldfish the monoblack tallmen and kobold builds next. I don't have enough goldfish experience with those to have an informed opinion yet.

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Originally Posted by emidln

The real question is if you care about Goblin Charbelcher. If you don't, you win a lot by just playing 6-8 lands instead of 2 lands + 4 bayou. Tall Men enabling Mox Opal and Therapy flashback are non-trivial. Outside of IMS availability (which skipping belcher or playing Tallman + mox opal or Pact all help with) is that relying on draw4s results in a lot of fizzling situations that put you in topdeck mode (with a ton of really bad topdecks). Tallman help with that, but not so much that it isn't among the top two problems. That's the major issue I was trying to solve with SAINT (to maximize situations where you either draw enough cards to win or put a win condition into play), which I still believe is a strictly better deck than Pact SI, Bg SI, or Br SI.

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Don't Mox Opal lists require Vault of Whispers? I never really found Metalcraft to be consistent, and you're making concessions by exposing yourself to Wasteland with Artifactlands and not imprinting on Chrome Mox. My issue with Goblin Charbelcher is that if you eat a Stifle then you're dead to your Summoner's Pact trigger. If I'm going to play a face roll win condition, then at least Empty the Warrens changes their counter prioritization to my rituals and without Summoner's Pact you can top deck your way out of a Stifle.

I just think the costs of Land Grant up front are too prohibitive compared to the risks of the D4 chains on the back end, and it's not like Belcher doesn't fizzle either (I've flipped many a land before 20) Kobolds always imprint on Mox, Swamps never get destroyed and Goblins generally get there game 1, so it seems like the safer bet.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Don't Mox Opal lists require Vault of Whispers? I never really found Metalcraft to be consistent, and you're making concessions by exposing yourself to Wasteland with Artifactlands and not imprinting on Chrome Mox.

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I've seen Mox Opal lists ranging somewhere between
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Opal
0-4 Chrome Mox
6-10 Tallmen
0-4 Vault of Whispers
0-4 Goblin Charbelcher

Including Chrome Moxes along with the Opal (even 2-3) makes the Opal better, but there is less to imprint without the Kobolds. Opal is one of the cards which gets hit by mulliganing into less cards in hand because that makes Metalcraft harder to achieve.

Running more Tallmen (up to 10) allows running MD Cabal Therapy as a byproduct.

Casting Ad Nauseam should give you metalcraft 90+% of the time. Post Nauseam, Opals effectively become extra petals. However, running cmc3 D4s which halve your health in the same list with Nauseam is suividal.

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Originally Posted by MDHackbert

So the Kobolds over tallmen here are to be able to exile to mox, instead of not, and then also providing red from mox for SB cards?

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As Final Fortune points out, it's that they imprint at all rather than because the deck demands huge amounts of red mana. Of course, being able to imprint for red will certainly be relevant on occasion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

The real question is if you care about Goblin Charbelcher. If you don't, you win a lot by just playing 6-8 lands instead of 2 lands + 4 bayou.

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I think you have articulated this very well. Having dropped Belcher from the (PSI) maindeck, and now from my sideboard, I am really, really liking the switch from Land Grant to Fetchlands. While the goldfishing is ever so slightly weaker (less storm, harder to get hellbent), in actual matches it is a huge improvement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

Outside of IMS availability (which skipping belcher or playing Tallman + mox opal or Pact all help with) is that relying on draw4s results in a lot of fizzling situations that put you in topdeck mode (with a ton of really bad topdecks). Tallman help with that, but not so much that it isn't among the top two problems. That's the major issue I was trying to solve with SAINT (to maximize situations where you either draw enough cards to win or put a win condition into play), which I still believe is a strictly better deck than Pact SI, Bg SI, or Br SI.

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This is a high variance deck, no doubt about it. While this makes the deck unattractive to genuinely talented pilots, it's less of a concern (or even a perk?) for someone of my more modest gifts. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Karhumies

I have to say, I am not 100% convinced. Getting the initial first black mana to go off is too much dependant on Land Grant resolving. There are way less black cards to imprint with the red cards thrown in, Taiga does not provide B mana and there is no Pact to tutor for Wild Cantor for G->B color filtering. If the opponent begins on the play with t1 spot discard to take out land grant/petal/chrome mox, way more hands turn into bricks than I would like. Not to even mention getting opened up to Wasteland and t1 moon effects (monored stompy, some big red builds) compared to running just Swamps.

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Ultimately, that is the cost of playing Goblin Charbelcher. Virtually all of your initial mana sources can be countered or discarded. Which is why I've dropped Belcher entirely. As much as it would seem fun to drop GCB on that guy holding back a Flusterstorm, it's one of those cards where you have to weigh up the games it cost you against the games where it actually helped you win.

In that sense, it's a lot like Eternal Witness. Which, amusingly, is what I swapped out GCB for. It's as if the deck tolerates only a certain number of niche cards...

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I just think the costs of Land Grant up front are too prohibitive compared to the risks of the D4 chains on the back end, and it's not like Belcher doesn't fizzle either (I've flipped many a land before 20) Kobolds always imprint on Mox, Swamps never get destroyed and Goblins generally get there game 1, so it seems like the safer bet.

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While I've dropped Land Grant, I've not gone to basic Swamps. Being able to fetch Dryad Arbor for Culling just feels like such a good play. I'm playing PSI, though, so I don't have access to 0 cc creatures.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Ultimately, that is the cost of playing Goblin Charbelcher. Virtually all of your initial mana sources can be countered or discarded. Which is why I've dropped Belcher entirely. As much as it would seem fun to drop GCB on that guy holding back a Flusterstorm, it's one of those cards where you have to weigh up the games it cost you against the games where it actually helped you win.

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Based on some quick goldfishing, if keeping the GCB in, I feel that a monoblack or a super light red splash list (0 SSG, 0 ESG, 0-2 EtW and 0-1 BW/PiF MD) is the way to go. The deck will be vulnerable to initial mana source disruption, but surviving that, it will "go off" more reliably mid-chain via redundancy (btw, Gitaxian Probe is a nicer filler than Manamorphose without ESG or SSG if struggling to reach 60) without naturally drawing into all the fancy G and U mana cards and cool one-ofs in the MD when you don't have the color filtering available for them. If you want to support fancy 1-ofs and multiple color splashes, my recommendation would be to make the land base steadier than 1 wasteable land, 0-1 creature removable land with summoning sickness without B access + 4 counterable Land Grants. Which results in dropping the GCB from MD.

I'll still be using the 2 MD GCB, I have a small event tonight and tomorrow night, and a big one on Saturday. Depending on the 2 smaller events, if I do 'decently' (at least 2-2), I will take it on Saturday as well.

The maindeck GCB gave me 3 wins from the 5 games wins last Friday. Will try the 4 swarms over the 4 blooms this time.