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If I were playing this deck, I'd run my countersuite in the side to crush Storm/SnT, but in the main, just be better at grinding the midrange matchups. My two cents.
I like this deck better than Shardless right now, since your combo matchup can get WAY better than theirs ever can.
I haven't played this much lately either, but I think at least 3 Force is mandatory. It gives us extra turn 0 interaction, which is especially important if you're expecting lots of people on different flavors of Eldrazi or other Stompy decks, not just combo. Having (hard) counters maindeck is also one of the things that takes our Miracles matchup from good to great - it's insulation against getting punked out by an endstep Entreat or a topdecked Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
I increasingly like my supplemental counters in the board, but I find Force main to be pretty non-negotiable. The part where I'm having trouble is finding enough room for blue spells MD to get to an acceptable range. And I don't think the ceiling on this deck's combo matchup is much higher than Shardless's without extreme measures like boarding in Delvers - and you pay for that in things like your Delver matchup (I feel about 50/50 vs. Grixis compared to 55%+ with Shardless) by being somewhat slower to the board. While counters are definitely bad against midrange, they're never totally dead, whereas additional grinding tools (for me this would likely be a third Painful Truths, a TNN or Tombstalker, a fifth discard spell or planeswalker, and a Loam or a Murderous Cut) range from just ok to completely blank against combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I want to entirely explore the limits of this deck and optimize it.
Force seems like the rut everyone falls into which is not where I want to be.
My meta is not super combo heavy and it's not a large percent otherwise.
Force so often feels awful because you are intentionally 2-1 yourself to stop something. I understand the need but we may have simply fallen on it like a crutch we don't actually need.
I'll be trying this to try to be the king of durdle mountain:
3 TNN
4 DRS
3 Goyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
13
3 Jace TMS
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil
6
3 Painful Truths
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Unearth
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
21
8 Fetches (Delta/Catacombs)
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Sea
2 Bayou
2 Trop
1 Forest
1 Swamp
21 lands
//Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam
I love to grind.
Try a familiars ruse? Counterspell, return tnn and deluge on the following turn. Unearth seems awesomely deep! im onboard. you may want to switch a tnn for goyf because of the nonbo with deluge. Also, im a huge fan of loam mb. no seize or duress in the 75 seems loose, bud. I am currently trying a kiora CW and its been pretty good. -1 double waste opp. 5 green sources for the ooze is not ideal. thrun in the board seems subpar since he loses combat to a lot of things. I have been absolutely loving the 1 revoker I play in the board. getting led is big game. No surgicals seems haphazard. OTHERWISE, happy BUG'ing!Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Hi all, haven't played in a about a year (pretty much since TC/DTT have been banned) but I've got the itch again.
With the surging of Eldrazi I feel that BUG colors can be really strong right now. With that said, I've never really liked Shardless Agent as it's really a grey ogre that casts spell with cc under 3. I understand why it's so powerful specially with Ancestral Vision, but really I think it's so powerful and commonly played because of Visions. So since I've been gone I see that they printed painful truths which I love and I think can fill a lot of the DTT/Visions slots in a regular BUG Midrange/control shell. With that said the following is the list I have been messing with/testing in MTGO.
Creatures: 14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers: 4
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery: 7
2 Thoughtseize
2 Painful Truths
1 Ponder
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Instants: 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
Artifacts: 1
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands: 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Force of Will
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Dread of Night
I think the deck has game against Eldrazi with all the wastelands/removal/creatures that can hold them up. Miracles with the planeswalkers/creatures. Combo with the counters/discard.
Really the toughest matchups I see are Burn/DnT.
It's 61 cards (that's just how I like to play), what I am looking for right now is any suggestions on the sideboard. Actually any comments/criticisms at all are welcome.
Thanks
im not sold on jitte and spell pierce. 1 CTP could be a basic island. SB is most meta dependant but looks good. im not a huge 61 card fan but it doesn't hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzlybeer
Taxes is obnoxious and im not sure what to do about it. Burn is frustrating. chill in the sb is probably good enough.
-I play a jitte main and do not run a deluge or other sweeper. Jitte helps the Dnt matchup and burn so that card does do some work. That being said you do board it out a fair amount vs heavy control decks and combo.
- Do not run chill. I did for a while and while it is amazing when it lands it was fairly narrow. Having a Scooze helps, Drs, Tnn backed with Jitte.
- I used to run the 2 pierce main and am now on 2 hymn in that slot with the 2 pierce in the board.
I played in a 4 rounder saturday
Rd1 - Merfolk
Game 1 Goyf into a couple wastelands on cavern/muta and a decay on vial and a lily bought me enough time to turn goyf into abyss. He did have a neat trick of imaging strix to buy time until I killed it.
Game 2 I keep a speculative hand and he gets out a chalice 1 and then a parade of tnn into image into image. My own tnn doesnt have time to pick up the jitte to race.
Game 3 I slow play into his board of 2cursecatcher and adept. I have a goyf so once he plays his first lord I deluge and he cant recover.
Rd2 - Grixis delver
Game 1 We both mull to 6. I keep Drsx2, TS, fetch waste. 3 turns later he has a lone Drs to my 3 with no lands in play. It took a while but the Drs machine gun got there.
Game 2 He starts with double delver and so pulse takes both of them. He gets angler and I get Tnn. Eventually I get a goyf kill his pyro and the race turns my way.
Rd3 - UWr Stoneblade
Game 1- Keep a land heavy hand and after answering back to back Sfm he lands jace and I am 1 mana short after bs to TS into pulse and I did not find a blue card for force so he forces pulse and pulls away from there.
- I try an interesting board strategy of boarding out a few goyfs knowing he will bring Rip in. With both Drs and snap (3 of them) I think I have too much graveyard reliance and goyf had a few of him cut.
Game 2- He does indeed land an early rip but I have multiple decays for sfm and then a golgari charm for rip. I have a goyf and tnn which keeps his Bskull from doing much. Land a Jace and ride him to victory.
Game 3- Again early rip but I just go turn 3 Tnn into Turn 4 Tnn and with Tar Pit he just cant block and so I take it.
Rd4 Big Red (this is the same deck Hoogland played on camera, this guy lent him the deck)
Game 1 - tomb- guide- seething song- guide- New 6 mana Chandra... I make a game of it with Tnn and strix to buy time but I get overwhelmed by 3/1s that I have nothing for a through the breech emmy
Game 2 - turn 1 songs again which I pierce. I pierce as I have no idea what could come out but pierce could become dead. Turn 2 I hymn which hits breach emmy. I snap pierce on a sneak attack and then land jace fate seal.
Game 3- we both mull. He lands chalice 1 on turn 1 and I just go Goyf into hymn, and then snap hymn. Without a hand he dies to a large goyf.
I dropped my basic island for a 3rd catacombs.
Sweet report.
Any changes you would make? Howd the fetch over the island go?
I think the fetch is probably better than an island. opening island could be an issue for the decay/hymn hands. Still debatable.
I had some change ideas BUT they are irrelvant now because this new mini-lage is INSANE! Like legit busted. The grixis probe therapy decks are gonna love it but it will be good against them too by bouncing the pyro and tokens.
Decay is going to be important. Plus, hey, we get to bounce our snaps back to hand and replay all those spells :)
new thing still dies to decay though so how good can it be?
So does Drs, Goyf, pyromancer, delver, sfm, etc. That said it comes with a HUGE body that also bounces Dnt, elves, pyromancer, entreat, mentor all back to the hand.
This is def playable and can easily slot in depending on the build. Not that it HAS to be played but I will be trying some brews with it. Seems fun.
Sounds good. I anticipate good results from you, Tom. Also, have you ever played BUG still? it might be a good time to revisit.
I think with this new creature you are right that its a more control shell than midrange. You drop the Tnns for sure. You might also drop goyf as well. Running strix and Snap seem great with this as you dont lose any value when you bounce.
Truths is also probably really good with this. Having access to something that refills your hand mid game is important.
If I do not play a deck with this main deck I wouldnt hesitate to jam 3 in my board and play it in place of goyf against thinks like elves or dnt where goyf isnt much of a threat most times.
It seems enticing as it has additional text when it flips but I am apprehensive to cut meaningful cards like goyf and tnn who are solid and tested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
For sure, but I dont want to discount the power level of this card. Especially in matchups like dnt where they bring in Rip. Having this in play is like having a deed in play where they have to pressure the board but committing themselves gets punished pretty hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Albeit its entirely susceptible to swords. I don't want to say its bad but I have no idea how good it can be and I don't want your hopes too high. Innistrad was insane last time, I fear it will be more tamed this time around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
Actually that is why I think this card would fit better in a midrange deck than a control shell. To be honest Dnt against Bug usually has its swords overloaded on Drs, possibly goyf or strix so especially with discard. swording a 0/4 shouldnt feel to great from them. The fact that it can also hold off smaller creatures before the flip also actually seems relevant in many cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Could you guys share your current list? Especially Ricardio & Tom4ik :smile:
Well now im excited. hopefully the price isn't ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik