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My mana base is almost exactly the same. The difference is -1 Bloodstained, +1 Wasteland. I love it.
Edit.
On holding up Wasteland. Unless you really need to press an advantage, you should not be wasting early. The deck is hungry, feed it. Then use waste later to push them off key colours or punish bad plays. (Like wasting fetches with a top in the top of the library.)
Im running this mana base:
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant C.
3 Bloodstained M.
2 Marsh F.
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Waste
3 Grove
The worst case scenario for me is drawing waste + forest, waste+grove or forest+grove. I am NOT losing because of opponent wasting me so I always fetch turn 1 swamp. The extra swamp has also proved to be invaluable with better starting 7s against Painter or moon effects and generally helps me reach the 4 mana point faster.
I think 3 groves are enough, as i dont want to see more than max 3 (if one is wasted, 2 is just perfect).
How many punishing do you run and do you have Loam sided? I personally would always run one less punishing than the number of Grove that I have. Punishing on its own is not very effective and I would rather that slot open of I am reducing the effectiveness of my engine. Make the rest of the deck run smoother to make up for the lowered reliability of Punishing Grove.
I got 2nd in a small 8 man yesterday. I had been playing Junk and Team Italia because Jund wasn't being kind to me, but I decided to switch back and was pleasantly rewarded with store credit.
Round 1: Unintentionally drew with Death and Taxes. I got punishing grove online early, but he was able to get a brimaz equipped with batterskull. game ended with both of us at high life totals.
Round 2: Stomped Merfolk because he drew very poorly and I drew very well. He never did play a true name nemesis, which was great for me because I never drew golgari charm or Liliana.
Round 3: Beat Shardless BUG in a convincing fashion. I drew very well again, and pretty much always beat him by the time he could recover from bloodbraids and hymns.
My list is almost exactly the same as Zach Murray's from SCG Portland, but with slightly different sideboard cards and manabase (he plays 9 fetchlands for the ability to play another Bayou).
Hey all,
I used to lurk for a while then dropped off, but I'd like to get a bit involved here. Jund is my go to deck and I've been experimenting with it a lot. My meta is comprised of more fair decks than combo, so it is a little geared towards that though isn't ignoring combo by any means.
First off, the mana base. I feel like this is one of junds weakest points, so something of the utmost importance. After testing both, I will never (ever) play a forest or a Taiga in the maindeck, they are just so awkward. Liliana is the best card in the deck hands down, and Jund uses her better than any other deck. Because of that, it is imperative to have the double black on time, be it T2 off DRS or a natural T3. Similar story for Hymn.
Here is what I have at the moment.
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
10 Black Fetches (4 delta, 4 catacombs, 2 mire atm)
Jund is such a proactive deck, having 6 fetchable lands vs 10 fetches isn't as bad as it can be in decks like controlling BUG builds and miracles. There is an argument to having a third Bayou over another fetch, but having the right colours at the right time to sequence your spells properly is just so important I can't stress it enough.
This is a standard MD I had for a while
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstorm Pulse
It's a strong maindeck, but just seems quite clunky so I knew I wanted some changes and to take a more aggressive proactive approach.
Recently I've been testing Prophetic Flamespeaker, and he's been unbelievable. I've brought with him some friends in the form of Sword of Fire and Ice and Umezawa's Jitte. I've connected once with a PFS equipped with a Jitte (killed a goyf and trampled over to kill a liliana against BUG), but they actually aren't even necessary. Junds cards have so much raw power, if he connects once you'll be put ahead. A testament to his strength is that recently he's eaten a StP over bobs and goyfs multiples times against multiples opponents and been cliqued away over Liliana. I cut the Maelstrom Pulse, Sylvan Library and the third Hymn for the three PFSs. I've cut the Sword now, but Jitte is strong enough on it's own to warrant inclusion, with or without PFS. My only slight concern is that the mana curve is being raised a bit too much. Two might be the right number, or maybe cut a BBE. But cascading BBE into PFS is just glorious!
Has anyone else tried him out?
My SB is constantly changing, but some of the mainstays are:
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Chains of Mefistopholes
1 Golgari Charm
1 Jund Charm
1 Forest
Ooh, my favourite kind of customer. One that is totally locked out by my Painter deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
If you want to be more Aggressive, I would look at Library Number 2. That card is a godsend in the matches where you need your toys on call. I would switch over a Thoughsieze for it. If you looking at a combo light meta, you just don't need that much discard.
No I have not tried Speaker and I am unsure how likely I am to do so. Without the equipment I need to make good use of him, I would rather another Library. That way I am not looking at drawing random and dead. Also, move the Forest out of the Side, that's just a wasted slot.
The Forest in the SB is for matchups like painter (or anything likely to run Blood Moon) and waste/loam decks among others. Against any other decks I don't want it. I had a basic forest for ages and it lost me a load of games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I do agree on the power of Sylvan Library. I actually cut it, but will be moving it back in.
Flamespeaker doesn't need equipment to be good, but when he does connect with equipment it's pretty gross.
So what's your actual deck config? I see you mentioning equipments and Flamespeaker yet I see none of them in your decklist. They're in the sideboard?
I like the card, but have yet to test it. I like that it tramples, can kill a wide assortment of creatures, and trample over tnn. (not without dying)
Current decklist:Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
SB:
1 Chains of Mefistopholes
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Jund Charm
1 Massacre
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Forest
2 Pyroblast
I need to know what people's thoughts are as far as chains of Mephistopheles is concerned.
I think the card is great and it needs to be in the sideboard of the deck, however my conundrum is whether or not 1 is appropriate or 2.
I understand that you only need 1 in play for it to be effective, however your probably of drawing one out of 60 cards is pretty piss poor. Increasing the count to 2, increases that change by about 13% (or so I was told by someone that bothers to do math).
So what are people's thoughts on 1 vs 2 chains.
For me one is enough. I usually bring it in conjunction with other cards (typically pyroblasts). It's an excellent card when I get it but I won't mull aggressively as if I were trying to find my 3 leylines of the void. Jund and my wallet are pretty tight so both cannot afford a second chains.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
Theres a debate around the issue a few pages back.
To put it short it works like this: it works as well as two sylvan libraries.
Generally you're gonna side library out to fit this, so for me, i'd stick to this math: one sylvan per chains.
It's more of a thing of taste/owning extra copies than actual effectivity - it will make it pop more in your hand but not the best draw after you have one in the table.
That said, it's one of the most retarded cards right now with so many blue decks + elves going on.
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One Chains.
The main problem with Chains of Mephistopheles is that it doesn't do anything. Its presence creates an effect, yes, but it doesn't do anything. It doesn't draw a card. It doesn't make them discard a card. It doesn't kill a creature create a creature think about creatures or women. It plops down and does... nothing. This is also a common, and true, criticism of Sylvan Library, but untapping with a Library on the field at least immensely justifies its inclusion.
Chain's isn't a power play. It doesn't do anything. No deck at all (maybe High Tide) looks at Chains and goes "oh, no, what ever will I do?!". Yes, it's a strong card. Yes, it lets us not be jealous of Brainstorm. But it doesn't hose anything and it doesn't actively do anything. It's not like jamming 4xLeyline of the Void in your deck, windmilling it down screaming "GET RIGGIDY FUCKING WRECKED". You place it down, let your opponent call over a judge, and yay you have a glorified Meddling Mage. It's a rock in the middle of the road that, in 99% of cases, your opponent just has to swerve around. It's a fantastic card and you should never leave home without it, but it's not the best card in your board or even close to it.
Chains is good against Sneak and Show as well. Not being able to use Griselbrand and all their cantrips is a big deal.
Control and Combo in general suffer.
You don't need more cards that deal with the board. You want to limit their hand so they can't get on top of you.
It's "good" against a lot of things, but it's not great against anything. Example is that "not being able to use Griselbrand" is a fallacy. If they have a grip of three/four/five cards, they can still activate Griselbrand and get results. It may not be the usual sixteen cards in hand, but they can still shape those four cards to be the best in the deck. Griselbrand is also still seven damage flying lifelink, which in some cases is enough to "end" the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by razvan
Hell, even the most affected of combo decks don't need to draw cards in order to win, and in many cases they can still "draw" around Chains.
Chains of Mephistopheles stops Brainstorm and cantrips topdecked with empty hands. Anything else it just makes "worse".
Pretty sure omnitell gets absolutely wrecked by chains
Not if they enter an infinite loop if they keep discarding emrakul....Does the match go to time then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Punish Foolz
How can they enter a inf loop with discarding emrakul?Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
If they Play enter the infinite with chains in play with will make its effect for each card in the deck after it has fully resolved then emrakuls can shuffle it in but not durring the resolving of the spell.
Even against Sneak Show, say they go Show and tell and play Griselbrand, you play Chains. We know it's a 7/7 lifelink fly, but it can't draw for counters anymore. You can "easily" cast Liliana/Edict/Maelstrom Pulse, or at least get a realistic chance at it, specially considering they already probably countered your turn 1 discard/reb countering SnT.
Let's check some interesting interactions aside of the already widely known blocking of cantrips:
Vs Shardless breaks any card advantage they might get with strix or the nightmarish Shardless Agent into Ancestral Visions.
Vs Elves, it stops the draw engine, which is what makes them win games quickly.
Vs Storm is where it's the trickiest because it won't do anything if they already have the tools in their hand, otherwise, another hardly won game.
In a solo game I did it, it was neat, but not recommended, which is playing against people running Sylvan Library such as Junk Dephts. It absolutely wrecks them.
In Miracles it's the only place where it's the least effective of the blue decks it affects, only jabbing at cantrips + Jace.
The only true cons the card has as far as I can see is decks using Vendillion Clique, which can be used on you, therefore causing you to mill/discard.
Chains does not "wreck" OmniTell. Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Red Elemental Blast are the team that "wreck" OmniTell, and Liliana's the wench that keeps them in check. Chains of Mephistopheles helps, but it's not part of the strike team. It's more of the fat kid that sits on the broken enemy and waits for them to cry "uncle". Chains of Mephistopheles is an entirely supplemental card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Punish Foolz
This last week I had the pleasure of playing at SCG Providence and went 3-3 before going on to side events. My final loss before I dropped was against OmniTell and it went something like this...
Game One:
He won the die roll. Shuffled up. Dealt hands. My hand was not that great on a blind draw, but it had a Deathrite and Liliana and a smattering of other stuff that meant it could hold its own against any fair deck, and is definitely better than whatever I could mull into. Game starts. He plays and Island and passes the turn. I drop a fetch and cast Deathrite, and pass the turn. He plays a Sol land, casts a Show and Tell that puts into play Omniscience and casts Enter the Infinite for free. I scoop.
Usual sideboard. Good stuff in. Bad stuff out.
Game Two:
Pretty good hand. Two Thoughtseize effects and a Hymn to Tourach. Limited beyond that, but it's enough to buy me time into an actual solution. We start the game. Before I can see my first upkeep, he puts a Leyline of Sanctity into play. I play a land, pass the turn. He plays an Island and passes the turn. I make a second land drop, since I have nothing to do, and pass the turn. He plays a Sol land, casts a Show and Tell that puts into play Omniscience and casts a Ponder that digs up Intuition that tutors for Enter the Infitite and I scoop.
So, with both those games in mind (that Leyline of Sanctity was pretty gross), how would a Chains of Mephistopheles have wrecked them? How could it have channeled its inner Gaddock Teeg and won the game? Even if you assume that I began the game with a Chains of Mephistopheles on the battlefield, they could have still won both of their games exactly the same way. OmniTell doesn't need all sixty cards in their hand to win. They need the one that kills you.
If my counts are correct, they would have had two cards left in hand after Enter the Infinite finished resolving in game one. In game two, they would've had one card. But that one card being a Cunning Wish still means you lose the game. And if he wanted to be extra cheeky in game one, he could make sure Emrakul is one of the discarded cards, and Cunning Wish and Enter the Infinite are the two cards left in hand. That way when you resolve Emrakul's trigger after Enter the Infinite is finished resolving, he can shuffle his library back up to fifty-six cards, use Cunning Wish to get Echoing Truth to bounce Chains, then Enter the Infinite for the traditional win. Or, in either game, if he was packing a full Emrakul suite, he could just cast Intuition for Emrakul and win straight out. Or he could be one of those fanboys of OmniShow that's always trying to find new rogue-ish tricks that make the deck not-irrelevant again.
In no scenario other than "I am already ahead" does Chains of Mephistopheles "wreck" OmniTell. It's certainly better than not having a Chains, but it's not even close to as good as a simple well timed Red Elemental Blast.
Again, Chains of Mephistopheles does not say "players can't draw more than one card each turn". That's Spirit of the Labyrinth. In the best of comparisons, Chains of Mephistopheles just makes their draws worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
You pretty much stated all of the solutions to Griselbrand Jund has. 3-4xLiliana, 0-1xMaelstrom Pulse, 0-1xEdict. About 5xSolution since Liliana's grown more popular since the start of the year. Five cards or race a Griselbrand. Chains doesn't stop Griselbrand from fixing a hand and setting up hands with enough counters to end the game. Three cards in hand? Or two? Just enough to find a Force of Will or a Lotus Petal and Spell Pierce or maybe just backup.