Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
I've been testing Dig, and it's been a mixed bag. My take on the two Delve spells after jamming loads of games are as follows:
Treasure Cruise:
advantages:
- can be cast for U, so you're way more likely to cast the things you draw the turn that you draw them
- more raw card advantage than Dig
disadvantages:
- you cruise into garbage surprisingly often since by the time you can cruise, all your lands, dazes, wastes, etc. are not relevant anymore. you also can't end the game that quickly since everyone playing cruise tends to make games go longer than before.
- has fundamental tension with the BUG game plan. you run reactive spells in the slots that UR would run Probes and Bolts. You can't just fire off the things you draw as easily as UR can. That is, you can't use the card advantage that you gain as easily. Card quality matters more to us
Dig Through Time:
advantages:
- gets you exactly what you need - no risk of delving into garbage
- being an instant opens many tactical options. dig on opponent's EOT into casting stuff on your turn with full mana available is strong. digging on opponent's upkeep can also be good because they have to fight over it and spend their mana on /their/ turn.
- immune to Spirit of the Labyrinth, Notion Thief, and other random nonsense.
disadvantages
- your cards are largely redundant. you have few/no awesome one-ofs in the maindeck, so there's usually nothing specific you really need. If you need to kill that delver, it doesn't matter if it's decay or disfigure or whatever.
- when you dig in desperation (i.e. in response to the combo player going for it), costing UU often makes it so that you can't even cast what it is that you draw. that is, it makes you want to run very mana efficient spells, but those spells are usually not the high-impact answers that you really want when you're about to lose.
I don't think one is objectively stronger than the other. But I think the strongest way to build BUG Delver is such that you can make good use of both Dig and Cruise. What I think is strongest is as follows:
- Run fewer Dazes and Wastelands to improve the overall quality of your Delve spells. They're worse now anyway since almost all the top decks a) run some basics and b) either run a ton of lands or very few expensive spells, which makes the Force Spike effect very weak very quickly. You can't cut too many of these since then your only free interaction is Force of Will, and that's really not acceptable because you don't have enough lands to cast multiple pieces of disruption in one turn, but believe me, I tried.
- Run more spells that are good when you are the control, since that happens more often now. Once could try to integrate harder countermagic like Spell Pierce and actual Counterspell. Definitely run the full set of Abrupt Decay if you haven't already, and think about running a sweeper or two somewhere. Maybe even run an extra land so that you can make better use of the things you draw.
- Run some kind of Dig/TC split so you can access the benefits of both. If you build your deck like I've said so that you have more strong cards to Dig for, then Dig gets better. If you don't raise the curve of the deck too much and keep late game air to a minimum, TC gets better. Another thing is that BUG generally becomes full of killer one-ofs post board, and you frequently want to side out a couple Delve spells versus the Delve hate. Both of these facts suggest that cutting your Cruises but keeping your Digs could be a really strong plan in many situations.
I think there is some way to do this so that you get to "have your cake and eat it too" - you are able to play a powerful control game when you need to (i.e. all the mirrors), but you also have the tempo-oriented Delver nut draws and high amount of pressure that is unique to this class of decks.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
I took 9th at SCG Columbus yesterday, missing top 8 on breakers. I ran this list:
Creatures (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
Draw/Manipulation (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise
Disruption (18)
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Dimir Charm
Land (19)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
Sideboard (15)
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
I'll post a lengthier report and discussion of the deckbuilding choices later, but the Cliff's notes are:
1. Dimir Charm continues to overperform. I think 2 is the right number because it is conditional, but I'm never unhappy to draw it. I strongly disagree with those who think even 1 is too cute.
2. I think the velocity of Hymn is too low. It definitely sealed the deal on one game, but in the situation I was in Thoughtseize would've had the same effect. Hymn turned the last piece of a pretty decisive game win (stripping the Batterskull from a Blade opponent when I had 2 Goyfs out) into a blowout (hitting their 4th land, allowing me to Wasteland them off of casting the rest of the spells in their hand).
3. I think that 3 Cruise is correct. It's still clunky early, and I definitely pitched it to Force a few times because casting it wasn't realistic, or kept a 7 in spite of having a Cruise in the opener.
4. Liliana still closes out games like a champ. Even without supporting discard she created both real and virtual card advantage at several points.
5. Clique and Tar Pit in the board is probably too much clunky midrange for the current meta. I boarded both in at different points, but often felt like having both was too much. I'll probably change one to a Grip, Zur's Weirding, or Maelstrom Pulse. Trygon Predator was awesome.
That's all for now, I'll expand on these points later.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Hard to protect against the removal package people run these days (StP, Decay, Terminus, artifact hate, counter the Stifle).
There aren't many popular decks right now that have problems dealing with the 12/12, so it's often just card disadvantage.
I think if you want to try to run Phyrexian Dreadnought then you almost have to run Thoughtseize as well. In this shell running Thoughtseize, Stifle and dreadnought would be bad. That's too many conditional cards before you get to the counters which are often conditional as well.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
I took 9th at SCG Columbus yesterday, missing top 8 on breakers. I ran
this list:
1. Dimir Charm continues to overperform. I think 2 is the right number because it
is conditional, but I'm never unhappy to draw it. I strongly disagree with those who think even 1 is too cute.
One (1) is far too cute and although it is not a bad card per say, there are so many more better and more viable options for this deck. The flex spots are extremely tight right now whether you play Hym/ Liliana or Stifle/ Pierce, etc., and when ever I draw it, I wish it were something else and better!
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Demonic_Attorney
One (1) is far too cute and although it is not a bad card per say, there are so many more better and more viable options for this deck. The flex spots are extremely tight right now whether you play Hym/ Liliana or Stifle/ Pierce, etc., and when ever I draw it, I wish it were something else and better!
Dimir Charm kills Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Goblin Guide, Eidolon of Eternal Revels, Young Pyromancer (Golgari Charm is better here but still), Meddling Mage set to Abrupt Decay, Thalia, Grim Lavamancer, Phyrexian Revoker, Snapcaster Mage, Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger. That's 13 of the 20 most played creatures in Legacy right now. It counters the kill spells in the format, which are all Sorcery at this point except for Jace, the Mind Sculptor, red damage instants, Blood Moon, Sneak Attack and Ad Nauseum. It is one of the few effects in the format that can halt a Miracle in mid-stream by putting it in the graveyard in response to a top activation to draw.
I think 1 is a no-brainer in BUG at this point and I definitely understand people who want 2.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
Dimir Charm kills Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Goblin Guide, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Young Pyromancer (Golgari Charm is better here but still), Meddling Mage set to Abrupt Decay, Thalia, Grim Lavamancer, Phyrexian Revoker, Snapcaster Mage, Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger. That's 13 of the 20 most played creatures in Legacy right now. It counters the kill spells in the format, which are all Sorcery at this point except for Jace, the Mind Sculptor, red damage instants, Blood Moon, Sneak Attack and Ad Nauseum. It is one of the few effects in the format that can halt a Miracle in mid-stream by putting it in the graveyard in response to a top activation to draw.
I think 1 is a no-brainer in BUG at this point and I definitely understand people who want 2.
You can also just counter both Terminus and Entreat with the "Counter target Sorcery spell" mode. You do have the option of using it on Miracles' turn after they draw to take floated Miracles without them being able to Miracle them, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Demonic_Attorney
One (1) is far too cute and although it is not a bad card per say, there are so many more better and more viable options for this deck. The flex spots are extremely tight right now whether you play Hymn/ Liliana or Stifle/ Pierce, etc., and when ever I draw it, I wish it were something else and better!
In addition to what FoolofaTook said, Charm also kills every D&T creature except Brimaz, Flickerwisp, and Mirran Crusader, every creature in Infect, and every non-finisher creature in Elves. In the case of Elves' finishers, it counters GSZ and NO, so it's very good there. It's also worth pointing out that because it kills manlands, it's a maindeckable, instant speed Stone Rain against things like Inkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, and Dryad Arbor. Add in the times where you can fire it off to hit cards that were hidden from discard with Brainstorm, or to set up your Delver and/or fix your draw on your opponent's endstep, or ruin your opponent's draw for a turn, and it's an incredibly flexible card that's well worth a slot. The only times I wish it were something different are when I'm staring down a Goyf, but I'm not cutting cards that kill Goyf for it.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Hope I don't shit up this thread too much with my off the cuff suggestions/questions... I don't play enough to have really valuable or insightful input in terms of in depth discussion... I do have a question for you guys though...
I'm playing a Stifle/Spell Pierce/3 TC list with 12 creatures... What do you all think of Standstill as a one of?
I feel like every time I draw it in opening hand with a Delver/DRS I am super well positioned to take over...
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
You can also just counter both Terminus and Entreat with the "Counter target Sorcery spell" mode. You do have the option of using it on Miracles' turn after they draw to take floated Miracles without them being able to Miracle them, though.
I like it better against Miracles in the chuck two cards in the graveyard mode. It's not unusual for a Miracles player to be floating two Terminus or a Terminus and an Entreat by the late-game. It's really nice to watch them panic Brainstorm and put those cards in their hand. #1 they blow a Brainstorm on defense. #2 the cards they put in their hand are dead weight until they draw another Brainstorm.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
This deck just isn't what it use to be. I've played it exclusively for more than a year and always felt great about it, but it's so much worse in the current meta. Discard being far less effective, the interaction between Cruise/Dig with Shaman/Tarmo, main deck Pyro/Red blasts everywhere, etc. That, and I am tired of being Blood Mooned out of games.
It was a good run, but there are far better options right now.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iostream
I've been testing Dig, and it's been a mixed bag. My take on the two Delve spells after jamming loads of games are as follows:
(a list of advantages and disadvantages of Cruise vs. Dig.)
I miss one serious advantage of Cruise over Dig:
The fact that it's cheaper to cast helps casting it through taxing counters.
This is big, since if they have to Force it, we still gain +1 card advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangelst
This deck just isn't what it use to be. I've played it exclusively for more than a year and always felt great about it, but it's so much worse in the current meta. Discard being far less effective, the interaction between Cruise/Dig with Shaman/Tarmo, main deck Pyro/Red blasts everywhere, etc. That, and I am tired of being Blood Mooned out of games.
It was a good run, but there are far better options right now.
I disagree for now. I have been toying with the new toys (:laugh:) and I feel there are still many great lists to play. I am not yet sure of the best one, but I like mine, and after six months of no competitive play at all I piloted it to a 4-2 result against pretty strong opposition (only serious decks and most players were quite good). I think this deck is still one of the top contenders, especially since it has a (very) good game against the new UR Pyro Delver thing. Darkblast! Oh yeah! :cool:
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
I think Dimir Charm is absolutley maindeckable. I for myself play 2 copies of it MD and after 7 games against Omnitell & 7 games against Grixis Delver I`m very lucky with the card. Lili would have been bad in a lot of situations, because I had only 2 mana against Grixis or I would not been able to pitch her to FoW against Onmitell. The Charm is so flexible and never really dead and really strong against Elves, Miracles. But that was said above...
The only thing I´m unsure at the moment is the debate TS vs Hymn MD...
I tried 3 Hymn with 2 Tropicals & 1 Bayou and now I´m trying 3-4 TS instead, then we will see which I like more...Hymn felt not bad at all in those games and has still some blowout potential, but sometimes it was a bit cluncy especially in this new Cruise/Delver meta. Catching the opponent`s TC, NO, Jace, Batterskull or whatever is very strong in my opinion...
I`m trying a Umezawa`s Jitte & Darkblast in the SB as a 1off. I think Jitte is really good against Elves, DnT, UR Delver, Burn. It`s just king in creature battles, especially if our opponent has Pyromancer or Mother etc. on board. I`m also boarding in 2 TNN in those MU`s so that the Jitte can go online safe.
Jitte is another way to handle opposing Mirran Crusader, which are very tough to beat for us. I think Darkblast is also great against DnT & Elves whicha are quite hard MU´s...
This is my current list which I´m testing...
12 creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
28 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dimir Charm
19 lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard: 15 Karten
3 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grafdigger`s Cage
1 Umezawa`s Jitte
1 Darkblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle[/QUOTE]
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
RE: Dimir Charm
Just to clarify, when I mentioned that "we" decided Dimir Charm was too cute, it was actually my friend who suggested that, and I who simply agreed that it might be worth cutting it for something else. At the time I was trying to fit the 2nd True-Name Nemesis in the deck, and basically had nothing else I wanted to cut, so it was an easy choice.
I still like Dimir Charm. It is very flexible, and reasonably strong in the meta right now. It's probably at it's best against Miracles, Stoneblade, and opposing Delver decks, but it starts to lose excitement outside those matches. It's still relevant against most combo decks trying to win with a sorcery, but it gets awkward when you have to hold up a conditional counterspell past turn 2 hoping to get value.
The problems I have with Dimir Charm are:
1) It's a redundant Abrupt Decay in most situations where you want the removal spell, and Decay is obviously leagues better. Manlands get under Decay, yes, but we still have Wasteland.
2) It's very difficult to hold up 2 mana waiting for a sorcery, even against Miracles, but especially in the mirrors. Cruise will sneak through while you are tapped out more often than not in my experience. Holding up 2 mana is much harder than just 1 mana for something like Spell Pierce or Disfigure.
Killing relevant creatures is great, but again Decay does this more reliably, and we still aren't exciting about paying 2 mana to take out a 1-2 mana threat. Countering sorceries is great, but Charm doesn't hit other relevant problems like Balance/top, Pyroblast, Jace, Batterskull, etc. The third mode is generally not going to be worthwhile 99% of the time. I can maybe see a couple cases where it's a passable play against Miracles, though I still think you just save it for their Sorceries.
Basically, I like the flexibility of Dimir Charm, but I personally am going to simply run a Spell Pierce in its place. It doesn't kill creatures, but it protects our own threats earlier in the game and still does a fine job of stopping most problems in a relevant timeframe, while being better against Delver and Blade decks. Being able to hold up Pierce while casting Seize, Shaman, or Delver is a big deal. That said, I wouldn't fault anyone for playing Dimir Charm, but I do think you need to consider your curve and what kind of game you want to play.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Dimir Charm, as we see the same things and are evaluating those things differently. I had tested MD Disfigure and additional discard/countermagic in those slots and felt like the removal was dead against combo and control, but that I really wanted the extra kill spells against other Delver decks and creature decks in general. Similarly, having access to the additional disruption against combo and control is valuable even if it's conditional. The main draw to Charm for me is that while sometimes it's not the best answer, it's almost always a sufficient answer and isn't ever dead.
To go into a little more detail about SCG, I went 7-1-1 overall, beating Dredge (round 1, 2-1), Junk Depths (round 2, 2-0), the mirror twice (round 3 and round 8, 2-1, 2-1), UW Delverblade (really strange list, round 6, 2-1), Nether Void/Chains of Mephistopheles Pox (round 7?!, 2-1), and UR Delver (round 9, 2-1), drew with Elves (round 4), and lost 1-2 to Jund Aggro Loam (1-2) in round 5. The draw was probably avoidable had I played the matchup at all recently.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Hey btm10, could you post your list, congrats on your sucess.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Check out post #1062, that was the list he played.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Dimir Charm, as we see the same things and are evaluating those things differently. I had tested MD Disfigure and additional discard/countermagic in those slots and felt like the removal was dead against combo and control, but that I really wanted the extra kill spells against other Delver decks and creature decks in general. Similarly, having access to the additional disruption against combo and control is valuable even if it's conditional. The main draw to Charm for me is that while sometimes it's not the best answer, it's almost always a sufficient answer and isn't ever dead.
To go into a little more detail about SCG, I went 7-1-1 overall, beating Dredge (round 1, 2-1), Junk Depths (round 2, 2-0), the mirror twice (round 3 and round 8, 2-1, 2-1), UW Delverblade (really strange list, round 6, 2-1), Nether Void/Chains of Mephistopheles Pox (round 7?!, 2-1), and UR Delver (round 9, 2-1), drew with Elves (round 4), and lost 1-2 to Jund Aggro Loam (1-2) in round 5. The draw was probably avoidable had I played the matchup at all recently.
Fair enough on the Dimir Charm debate. But again, it's not that I don't like it, I'm just wary of raising my spell curve too much, and I feel like Spell Pierce is also a welcome addition to the maindeck. I also think Dimir Charm works better with the Stifle plan, but I'm currently running the Thoughtseize plan, so there's some dissynergy there for me. I also still have to decide if I'm playing True-Name Nemesis or not, since those are actually what is taking up the Dimir Charm slot currently. They are both reasonably good against UR Delver and Miracles, so it's a toss-up. Maybe I'll cut one Nemesis for another spell.
In any case, congrats on your placement. 9th is a rough place to fall with breakers, but it's still a very strong finish. I'll be happy to Day 2 this coming weekend.
Can you elaborate on your matchup against Elves, and possibly give us a quick Sideboard reference that you followed for your tournament? I'm aware that Sideboarding is always fluid, but I like having other people's input to help influence my own ideas, as I'm not very practiced with the deck right now and Sideboarding can easily make or break your day. Thanks!
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Nice work bt. Your list was a card off from what I am currently on. I'm curious about your hymn to turach conclusions. Got any ideas for a replacement?
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Borealis
Fair enough on the Dimir Charm debate. But again, it's not that I don't like it, I'm just wary of raising my spell curve too much, and I feel like Spell Pierce is also a welcome addition to the maindeck. I also think Dimir Charm works better with the Stifle plan, but I'm currently running the Thoughtseize plan, so there's some dissynergy there for me. I also still have to decide if I'm playing True-Name Nemesis or not, since those are actually what is taking up the Dimir Charm slot currently. They are both reasonably good against UR Delver and Miracles, so it's a toss-up. Maybe I'll cut one Nemesis for another spell.
In any case, congrats on your placement. 9th is a rough place to fall with breakers, but it's still a very strong finish. I'll be happy to Day 2 this coming weekend.
Can you elaborate on your matchup against Elves, and possibly give us a quick Sideboard reference that you followed for your tournament? I'm aware that Sideboarding is always fluid, but I like having other people's input to help influence my own ideas, as I'm not very practiced with the deck right now and Sideboarding can easily make or break your day. Thanks!
Thanks to you too. The Elves match in particular was really rough - I didn't get to sleep much the night before so I was pretty tired all day, and rounds 4 and 5 were when I also got hungry and hadn't remembered to bring food. As a result, I remember having a hard time focusing enough to navigate combat or find even obvious lines in both matches. In the unlikely event that my Elves opponent reads this, I'm sorry.
In general, I boarded as follows:
Against Dredge:
-1 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Treasure Cruise
+2 Spell Pierce
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Disfigure
There's not really much to say about this one. You take out the cards that interact poorly or are too slow and substitute cards that interact favorably. The Disfigure was just to give myself an additional way to exile Bridges should it come to that.
Against Loam/Depths Decks:
-4 Daze
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Creeping Tar Pit
+1 Pithing Needle
Needle is the only way to directly stop the combo, and Surgical deals with Loam. Clique and Tar Pit are additional threats in a match you want to end quickly, and CTP also provides some resistance to Wasteland and Devastating Dreams in case a game goes long.
Against the Mirror:
On the play:
-4 Force of Will
-1 Daze
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Disfigure
On the Draw:
-4 Daze
-1 Force of Will
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Disfigure
I also swapped a Wasteland for a Tar Pit in game 2 of round 3 when I knew I would be on the draw. Sometimes I don't cut Forces. Sometimes I board in a 61st card, which is usually an uncompensated Clique. I frequently cut Daze on the play. I've run this plan a few other times and it's been quite successful. The mirror has always felt like a midrange or control mirror in that we're both bringing in plenty of answers, and it's more important to have the major card advantage engines and to be the last one to stick a threat than it is to be the one with the fast start. There are absolutely hands you can keep that facilitate a speedier approach and I'd definitely take those opportunities, but you can't bank on them presenting themselves, especially if your opponent is also becoming more controlling postboard. I take a similar approach against RUG and UWR, but bring in Predator and Golgari Charm against UWR over most non-Dimir Charm countermagic against UWR, while retaining a counter against RUG over the Predator.
Against Elves
-4 Daze
-2 Treasure Cruise
+2 Disfigure
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
Stopping NO and GSZ are very important here, and Dimir Charm counters both while not being dead against the rest of their deck. This is not a matchup I've got lots of experience playing, so any other feedback is appreciated. My opponent boarded in 2 Jittes against me, which came as a surprise and made game 2 run longer than it should've.
Against Blade decks:
These decks are highly variable, so it's hard to give simple advice. Hymn and Daze are both marginal here since they have Cruise and games tend to go long. If I see lots of basics, I'll drop a Wasteland for Creeping Tar Pit because it's resistant to Supreme Verdict and is great in a race. The rest of my plan turns on how they played against me and how long I expect games to go. If they tried to be the control deck in game 1, I'll drop Daze even on the play and bring in Pierces no matter what. Sylvan Library almost always comes in, as do Clique, Predator, and Null Rod. These decks always run TNN, so at least one Golgari Charm is also necessary, although Liliana handles it well.
Against Deathblade, all of that goes out the window. Leave in Hymn and all of your Wastelands to punish their godawful manabase. At least one Dimir Charm also stays in because they have more targets than a standard Blade deck and killing DRS plays into your mana denial plan, so you only get the Daze slots and 1 or 2 Force slots to play with. If you're only dropping Daze (which I recommend), it's +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Trygon Predator, +1 Clique.
Against UR Delver:
Drop Hymn, Liliana, and some countermagic for Pierce, Golgari Charm, and Disfigure. Kill everything they play, and I like cutting 2 additional Dazes for Pierces to stop burn and cantrips.
Against Miracles:
Drop at least one additional Wasteland for Pithing Needle on top of what you drop for Blade, and then board the same way. Never cut more than one Force of Will, but Daze is garbage almost all of the time. Hymn is pretty bad too, but Liliana can force them to play the game on your terms, especially once you're Cruising or have an active Sylvan Library. The only cards you should fight over are Entreat, Jace, and your Sylvan Library, because Entreat and Jace are the only cards that can actually kill you, and Sylvan basically wins the game on its own because they don't pressure your life total most of the time. If you expect a lot of Miracles in your local meta, you should find room for a Zur's Weirding in the board because Miracles literally cannot beat a resolved Weirding if you have a threat. They'll never successfully draw a miracle spell that you care about, you can keep them off of removal if you need to, and you pay 2 life to kill every Jace they draw. Other than that, it doesn't matter what they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Thorhammer
Nice work bt. Your list was a card off from what I am currently on. I'm curious about your hymn to turach conclusions. Got any ideas for a replacement?
Thanks! I spent a lot of turns wanting to cast Hymn but not having the mana to do that and cast another spell. A lot of people have written about how Cruise undoes Hymn, but I never really felt like an opposing Cruise took me out of the game even when I didn't cast Hymn. Against UR their deck is so redundant and capable of reloading so quickly that discard isn't great against them in general, and that holds for most other Delver variants. I'm torn between Stifle and Thoughtseize for those slots, but I don't know which way I'll go yet.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
btm10: Would you mind elaborating a bit on how Trygon Predator performed? It just seems like all the Stoneforge Mystic decks have plenty of removal to stop it from connecting - would Krosan Grip or Maelstrom Pulse be better?
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iostream
btm10: Would you mind elaborating a bit on how Trygon Predator performed? It just seems like all the Stoneforge Mystic decks have plenty of removal to stop it from connecting - would Krosan Grip or Maelstrom Pulse be better?
Grip and Pulse are definitely easier to use, but they're single shot. I ran Predator with the expectation that I'd run into more SFM decks that I did. If you think you'll only see one Stoneforge deck and maybe one Miracles opponent over an event, I'd definitely rather have a less fragile piece of one-shot artifact/enchantment removal.
However, against the Blade decks, UWR Delver, and Miracles I expected to see, Predator represents such a huge threat that they're usually willing to commit significant resources to seeing it gone which benefits you in two ways: first, it saves your creatures from their removal because they have to prioritize removing a 2/3 over your 4/5 or 5/6 Goyf, and second, if you win the fight over it they'll be so depleted that you're almost guaranteed to win from that point. Sometimes it dies, but the only thing it hits that Decay doesn't is Batterskull, and either Goyf or Decay + Null Rod permanently answers that. I've run Grip and Pulse in the past (and Pulse is back over Tar Pit) and they've been fine, but SFM decks right now are in the odd position that we need answers to them but have a lot of incidental SB power against them like Null Rod, Needle, and Golgari Charm, and can afford to run a slot that's high risk/high reward.
