[Deck] 43 Lands

Hello players of Lands! I've been a long time reader of this thread (well, for the last 10 pages or so) and upon finally attaining a Tabernacle, I feel I have at last acquired the complete package for one of the most frustrating control decks (for opponents, at least from what I've gathered). However, I haven't actually seen the deck in action very often, so I had a couple of questions to ask some of you veterans of the deck.

1. How does this deck compare to Stax? I know much more about how Stax plays, so I could always use the Tabernacle in that deck, but I know that Stax is one of those power-over-consistency decks, much more explosive but also with a lot more potential dangers. It is also an unusual proactive control deck, where Lands is more of a traditional reactive one. Does Lands edge Stax in consistently seeing through its own gameplan? Is Lands as easy to disrupt with a well-timed counterspell or Disenchant effect as the prison deck? What metagames would be better for Lands and which would be better for Stax? Sorry if this doesn't pertain to everyone in the discussion, but I figure some of you must have some experience either playing or watching other Stax decks as well. And I know that even though this is the 43 Lands thread, there still must be some merit for Stax (it is much more effective against combo decks, for example).

2. How do aggro matchups typically play out as Lands, specifically against Merfolk and Goblins? I know that aggro matchups are meant to be one of Lands' favorable matchups, and it's easy to assume on paper that Maze of Ith, Tabernacle and factory chump blockers would slow down aggression, but I can also imagine either of those aforementioned decks overwhelming the Lands player over time, with Lands being unable to gain some sort of inevitability over them in a reasonable time. Against those decks, do you just aim to draw out as many Mazes as possible from your own deck as soon as possible? Because that seems awfully slow and also not too kind on your mana base. Additionally, those decks both run their own Wastelands, making your powerful lands less reliable. Maybe I am missing something when thinking about these matchups, but I would just like to know what an effective gameplan is.

3. Is there no more love for Mishra's Factory? To kind of go along with my second question, it seems like factories would serve as quality chump blockers when trying to stabilize early against aggro, but recent lists seem to have cut the man-lands altogether. They are a win condition (very late, of course) and they can activate much more efficiently than the Zendikar ones. What is the reason for them falling out of favor? I mean, there's something appealing about slowly poking a disheartened opponent to death with assembly workers after the game has been all but won. =)

I've read a lot about the Enlightened Tutor builds, but despite the excellent primer, I think I will try the original Lands builds first. I feel like cutting the Intuitions, depending less on Manabond, and exchanging land slots for artifacts takes away from the strengths of the deck, which include searching out lots of situational lands and playing lots of situational lands. The Enlightened builds seem kind of like a cross between the old 43 Lands builds and a sort of UW control, almost like the mono white Quinn deck. I wish to abuse a lot of lands as much as possible, and I thought this mercadia build might be a good place to start:

http://mercadia.de/home/page.php?sit.../deck&id=88289

Anyways, I hope sticking with the traditional build won't turn you all away from offering your insight; I will probably test the Enlightened build eventually. I look forward to hearing more and finally playing this great deck!

As far as how lands wins against the folk and goblins, all I can say is that getting to lockdown is pretty important. The relevent cards in the matchup are Chasm, Maze, explosives, Zorb, and probably most important is bridge. The goal when playing them is to ramp to or survive until you can lock with Chasm or more ideally Bridge. An explosives recursion lock is also doable but less probable as goblins have hast guys and merfolk have mutavault to finish you off. Fast starts are wins against these matchups because with the tutoring the deck has available, a fast start can lead to a quick lock or enough stall to get the lock. A few things to be aware of are of course thier Wastelands, as a Chasm Lock lost for one turn can be pretty bad in the late game, and that your Mazes are not all that great if the folk use Kira. Intuition is pretty awesome in setting up either one of the locks in addition to getting the Loam engine going, so I would keep them in if you are not going the enlightenned tutor route.

For what it is worth, the Chris W blue lands configuration is pretty good against dredge if you have one Tomb Main and 2+ other GY hate side as you have many ways to get it, ways to recur it, and factories to sac to wastelands to kill the bridges. They cant do much against a resolved Chasm unless they play the Angel as a recur target so given the chance, I will go there. Dredges discard outside of turn one is pretty irrelevent, but if they board leyline you will need an answer.

Good luck and enjoy the sad faces you create with turn one explorations.

@into_play

I havnt played the Stax match often, 2-3 times maybe in the last 2 years. I know ive never lost to it. Explosives is key in this match as well as academy ruins of course. always side in your crucible if your not running it MD game 2. thier biggest threats are elspeth/(jace2.0 if they splash Blue) and armageddon. Basic gameplan is to find EE and your colorless manaproducing lands to be able to play Explosives at 0 through a trin. if you stabalize against them hold a green source in your hand incase they get an armageddon off.

The aggro matchups are in our favor. The goblins matchup depends on your build, intuition is very effective vs them if you can cast it turn 2. Merfolk sould be an easy match although I lost to it a few weeks ago at starcity edison. :mad: Strat is pretty basic against these decks chasm zuran tabernacle and maze are the key cards. bridge is better vs folk then gobs but is effective against both with a manabond in play.

Factory is clunky, takes up space and provides little utility IMO. Maze is the better option for defensive purposes. we are not usually trying to kill our opponent early. we like to grind the game out and take control until our opponent cant do anything. then we decide its time to kill them.

Here is an example of why creeping tar pit is amazing:
Last week i was playing in a local tournament, 30-35 people. I got paired agains UB folk. games 2 he brought in extripate, i wasnt ready for it...thought they splashed B for perish and plague. regardless he turn 2 extripated my laom and i didnt bring in my crucible, so i no longer had any recursion capabilities of my lands. I had brought in 2 ghostly prison from my SB. eventually the board on my side was Lands 2 prison and 1 bridge. He had like 6 Merfolk in play just waiting to kill me. My plan of attack was to bait my opponent with both of my tabernacles to draw out some wasteland from his deck. It worked perfectly, i drew 1 and wested for the 2nd. I then had to pray that my tar pit would get there...It did!

I like the intuitions as well and have not cut them in my list. BUT the Enlightened version is def superior. It relies less on the Graveyard, and allows you to find hate SB cards quickly. Here is the list i use, it has been succesful for me recently, i tweak the sideboard often but as of today this is what the 75 looks like.

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Intuition
4 Life From the Loam
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Smokestack
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Tropical Islands
1 Savanna
1 Bayou
1 Forest
5 Fetch
4 Wasteland
4 Port
4 Maze
1 Tabernacle
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquill Thicket
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins

4 Dark Confidant
1 Tabernacle
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Rule of Law
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Null Rod
1 Cursed Totum
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Arcane Laboratory/Oppression/Trinisphere

I played the original Gwr Lands, Intuition and E Tutor Lands and I like E Tutor the best.

Without Mishra's Factory, and the other manlands in the Gwr version, it has almost no clock at all but the unblockable ability of Creeping Tarpit really does win games. Not having to clear a whole board before you start damage or just hitting Jace before he Jaces on your face is a must.

I almost always felt that Intuition was at least a turn too slow because I almost always wanted a very specific card but had to also get Academy Ruins and then spend at least one turn to get that card out of my yard(DISCLAIMER: I'm probably not a good enough player to play Intuition correctly 80% of the time). I still play one Intuition over Entomb because it really is awesome, but 4 of with 4 Manabonds sucks. Often you'll get 2 Intuition and a Manabond in your opener and have to send it back. E Tutor, with Crucible, makes the deck not dependent on LftL and therefore much more resilient to non-recurring GY hate. Being able to tutor for Ensaring Bridge, or any other artifact/enchantment hate, and playing it the next turn, or the same turn with Thicket, is often game winning. It also allows you to dump your hand to Manabond on the second turninstead of 3/4.

For beating Aggro you want to get E Brdige down ASAP. Chasm Maze help you get by for a couple turns but like you said they Wasteland and Wasteland is bad, Goblins also plays port to stop your Mazes. Z Orb really helps you stabilize as well.

Stax: Obviously they are both prison decks but the decision trees in Lands are much more complex. I've never played Stax but i have played against it a fair amount and usually ended up winning because we use Smokestack better than Stax does. Like you said, Stax is obviously better against Combo but I think that's about it. Lands is slower, usually, but much more consistent and against the rest of the field. Knowing when to LftL and what to search for are the two most important things to know.

If you're going to a large event, like the SCG series, I would honestly recomend playing a different deck, that you're more comfortable with, right now due to the amount of Combo and GY hate that are/will show up to those events. I would definitely take this to smaller events, especially if the meta is undeveloped.

Any recommendations for a Port replacement for MTGO? I've tried Ghost Quarter and have been pretty disappointed unless I'm playing Dredge or C. Thresh.

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Originally Posted by lord09

Any recommendations for a Port replacement for MTGO? I've tried Ghost Quarter and have been pretty disappointed unless I'm playing Dredge or C. Thresh.

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I'm playing Factory, it works okay. I could also see 2 Factory, 1 fetch 1 dual. The meta is pretty hostile right now, there's a lot of Dredge kicking around. There's not really a great replacement, so you have to just push through without it.

I just started playing E Tutor in the deck as a 2 of along with 3 intuition. What artifacts are worthy main board? Currently I have Crucible, Zuran Orb, Smokestack, EE, Ensnaring Bridge, and Mindslaver.

Just as a teaser for everybody, I have a video set going up on Star City on Thursday of Lands on Magic Online. I'll post the link when it's online.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...ds_Legacy.html

Videos posted.

I enjoyed the video. I was on the fence about SDT, but it does seem to really help in longer games.

Keep it up, I'd love to see more.

Thanks for the videos. I really like seeing other people play Lands.

On a related note, I was going to bring up some questions I did not quite understand regarding the Enlightened Tutor build. Maybe someone can clear this up for me. As I did not play too many games with the E.Tutor version, my problems might be due to not having adjusted yet to the different play and especially mulligan conditions of the new list.
As far as I understood, the argument for E.Tutor is twofold:
1) You get less awkward Manabond + Intuition hands (or generally Manabond + Spells hands)
2) Intuition is very likely to be Dazed or Spell Pierced, whereas E.Tutor slips through.

Now 1) obviously is true. But what you are getting instead are Manabond + E.Tutor hands, Manabond + (Artifact) Spell hands, or E.Tutor + (Artifact) Spell hands - as 3 Intuitions and 2 Manabonds are replaced with E.Tutors and Artifacts. I think those hands are only silghtly less awkward unless playing against decks that are cold to Ensnaring Bridge. In such hands, it is a big problem that E.Tutor cannot find Loam. I am not even sure you can keep a hand with Enchantment and Tutor (even provided you have white mana to cast both). The risk of not finding Loam seems to be quite big.
Sure, you can tutor for Crucible or Top/Tutelage. But that brings me to 2) - the cards you are tutoring for (if you do not already have Loam) seem to be just as likely to get Dazed/Pierced as Intuition was in the first place. I guess this is less so, if you run Top and not Tutelage. But Top has to do quite a lot of work to make up for not being Loam. And even a resolved Crucible is not Loam in that it cannot find additional lands or recur Tolaria West etc (or interact with Manabond).

I watched the first video and will definitely be coming back later for the others when I have more time. I groaned when I saw the Llanowar Elves come down. Pretty much every build I've played against in my area has a maindeck answer for problem artifacts and/or enchantments, although Chasm is usually pretty solid. I was thinking you'd bring back Ensnaring Bridge with Academy Ruins and have Chasm as your secondary shield (something that has become second nature for me after having lost several games to opponents having an out and topdecking it in the next few turns), but the maindeck Magus was pretty evil. I've been testing Krödel Loam variations the past few nights and like Volrath Stronghold into Eternal Witness quite a bit. One of the things that's always bugged me about 43 Lands is that it doesn't have a way to get back Explorations or Manabond.

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Originally Posted by Serbitar

Thanks for the videos. I really like seeing other people play Lands.

On a related note, I was going to bring up some questions I did not quite understand regarding the Enlightened Tutor build. Maybe someone can clear this up for me. As I did not play too many games with the E.Tutor version, my problems might be due to not having adjusted yet to the different play and especially mulligan conditions of the new list.
As far as I understood, the argument for E.Tutor is twofold:
1) You get less awkward Manabond + Intuition hands (or generally Manabond + Spells hands)
2) Intuition is very likely to be Dazed or Spell Pierced, whereas E.Tutor slips through.

Now 1) obviously is true. But what you are getting instead are Manabond + E.Tutor hands, Manabond + (Artifact) Spell hands, or E.Tutor + (Artifact) Spell hands - as 3 Intuitions and 2 Manabonds are replaced with E.Tutors and Artifacts. I think those hands are only silghtly less awkward unless playing against decks that are cold to Ensnaring Bridge. In such hands, it is a big problem that E.Tutor cannot find Loam. I am not even sure you can keep a hand with Enchantment and Tutor (even provided you have white mana to cast both). The risk of not finding Loam seems to be quite big.
Sure, you can tutor for Crucible or Top/Tutelage. But that brings me to 2) - the cards you are tutoring for (if you do not already have Loam) seem to be just as likely to get Dazed/Pierced as Intuition was in the first place. I guess this is less so, if you run Top and not Tutelage. But Top has to do quite a lot of work to make up for not being Loam. And even a resolved Crucible is not Loam in that it cannot find additional lands or recur Tolaria West etc (or interact with Manabond).

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Incredible conclussions. This is what i tried to say since E. tutor verssion came out. Thx Serbitar for your words that reflect as well the mines!!
Off course fundamentation against our argument is pretty accepted!

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Originally Posted by ESG

I've been testing Krödel Loam variations the past few nights and like Volrath Stronghold into Eternal Witness quite a bit. One of the things that's always bugged me about 43 Lands is that it doesn't have a way to get back Explorations or Manabond.

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How did this worked???

@GoldenCid: Ultimately, it's a mixed bag. You gain flexibility in recursion Game 1 at the cost of slightly more varied color requirements. Eternal Witness is also a great topdeck. Knight of the Reliquary can be game-winning if she isn't immediately answered. Having a Crop Rotation on a stick is really powerful, and the Knight is solid whether you're using her as a wall or as a midgame attacker. Then again, because Legacy is a creature-heavy format, Knight isn't necessarily that hard for an opponent to answer. She's great against the mono-blue build of Merfolk, and she's great against the Show and Tell matchup. I've tested a lot of different Lands decks, and I don't believe there is a universally superior version. I believe that you need to test several versions and find one that best exploits your meta. Then tweak and tune the deck until it's optimized. You need to know it inside and out, as there are a ton of pivot points, and you can't afford to lose too much time considering your plays, because if you happen to lose a game, you're likely looking at an unintentional draw.

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Originally Posted by ESG

@GoldenCid: Ultimately, it's a mixed bag. You gain flexibility in recursion Game 1 at the cost of slightly more varied color requirements. Eternal Witness is also a great topdeck. Knight of the Reliquary can be game-winning if she isn't immediately answered. Having a Crop Rotation on a stick is really powerful, and the Knight is solid whether you're using her as a wall or as a midgame attacker. Then again, because Legacy is a creature-heavy format, Knight isn't necessarily that hard for an opponent to answer. She's great against the mono-blue build of Merfolk, and she's great against the Show and Tell matchup. I've tested a lot of different Lands decks, and I don't believe there is a universally superior version. I believe that you need to test several versions and find one that best exploits your meta. Then tweak and tune the deck until it's optimized. You need to know it inside and out, as there are a ton of pivot points, and you can't afford to lose too much time considering your plays, because if you happen to lose a game, you're likely looking at an unintentional draw.

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could i see your list??

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

could i see your list??

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It's not my list; I've just been testing some games with it (and I haven't gotten in all that many yet). This is Krödel's Loam 1.4 by Team Nienburg.

1 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Crop Rotation
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Exploration
3 Intuition
3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Worm Harvest
1 Zuran Orb
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
4 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Rishadan Port
3 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Dispeller's Capsule
3 Hydroblast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Teferi's Response
1 Tormod's Crypt

After testing most all the options that have been presented in this thread, I can only wonder if Lands is a playable archetype anymore. I really want to continue playing this deck, at least one more time at SCG charlotte, but I can't find a build that can compete quick enough with the way the current meta is going. Alex B. just took Boston with fish.....again....so it's safe to assume that fish will be sticking around, and it's not that bad of a match up, but NO Bant + variants have been hard to handle in my playtesting. It seems that once a Progen hits the field its game over. Any new idea's? Or should we be looking for a new archetype :(

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Originally Posted by Barbwire

After testing most all the options that have been presented in this thread, I can only wonder if Lands is a playable archetype anymore. I really want to continue playing this deck, at least one more time at SCG charlotte, but I can't find a build that can compete quick enough with the way the current meta is going. Alex B. just took Boston with fish.....again....so it's safe to assume that fish will be sticking around, and it's not that bad of a match up, but NO Bant + variants have been hard to handle in my playtesting. It seems that once a Progen hits the field its game over. Any new idea's? Or should we be looking for a new archetype :(

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Glacial Chasm?

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Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Glacial Chasm?

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That's the problem, Glacial Chasm can be blown up by a tutored wasteland from a KotR, and Ensnaring B can be taken out by a QPride Mage. Both of which are easy for the NO Bant deck to tutor for with GSZ or just have in hand due to the # in the deck. Every game I've played against it I've been unsuccessful in defending long term agaisnt a Progen on the field.

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Originally Posted by Barbwire

That's the problem, Glacial Chasm can be blown up by a tutored wasteland from a KotR, and Ensnaring B can be taken out by a QPride Mage. Both of which are easy for the NO Bant deck to tutor for with GSZ or just have in hand due to the # in the deck. Every game I've played against it I've been unsuccessful in defending long term agaisnt a Progen on the field.

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Yeah, I've seen roughly the same thing happen to me. Green Sun's Zenith is... really good. Post-board you can bring in the Cursed Totem that can usually give them a few fits, but it can still end up being pretty rough as they can find a Krosan Grip before we can really start putting the thumbscrews on. I usually end up just trying to keep them off 3 mana as long as possible; they're pretty susceptible to Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, and Rishadan Port, at least.