[DTB] Vial Goblins

My problem isn't with his list or the idea of Rg instead or Rb or Rbg. My issue comes from the idea that a creature (or spell) that costs :g: in a deck with only non-basics having game versus Blood Moon. As soon as they land a Blood Moon, your deck loses the ability to deal with their artifacts. At least you can take out Magus without difficulty, but what about the 40% of games where they see a Blood Moon (assuming 4x in the deck at that point)? Is Dragon Stompy not that popular where you are (ironic given how much you've contributed to the deck...) or are there tricks of which I'm unaware?

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Originally Posted by Nihil

And what's with packing Tarmogoyf answers in the sideboard only (and terrible ones at that, when compared to Weirding)?

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Because I'm still not convinced you need Tarmogoyf answers game one other than Gempalm Incinerator and an army of Goblins. I've always been able to handle Tarmogoyf by swarming. What I can't handle is when UGR brings in Pyroclasms from the board to back it up, or Survival brings in Plagues, or whatever the case may be.

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Originally Posted by scrumdogg

My problem isn't with his list or the idea of Rg instead or Rb or Rbg. My issue comes from the idea that a creature (or spell) that costs :g: in a deck with only non-basics having game versus Blood Moon. As soon as they land a Blood Moon, your deck loses the ability to deal with their artifacts. At least you can take out Magus without difficulty, but what about the 40% of games where they see a Blood Moon (assuming 4x in the deck at that point)? Is Dragon Stompy not that popular where you are (ironic given how much you've contributed to the deck...) or are there tricks of which I'm unaware?

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Games 2 and 3 I don't generally have to worry about it, as Dragon Stompy cuts Blood Moon for Pyrokinesis. Game 1, if they get a Moon out that fast, then I at least have an extra turn to develop my forces before I face a Jitte'd creature. That might be enough to handle it with a Gempalm Incinerator. Probably not, but the possibility exists.

Dragon Stompy is actually ridiculously popular where I play, second to only, ironically, Goblins. Magus, as you said, is a pushover, and Blood Moon either doesn't hit that often or is often the first thing on the Chrome Mox so that the opponent has the cards to -play- the big threat and the Jitte. On occasion Moon will come down and cause problems. C'est la vie. I'd run a Forest to correct this, but if the Moon came down fast enough I couldn't fetch it anyway.

EDIT: Also, doesn't the Blood Moon argument hurt R/B worse, given that it shuts off Warren Weirding? Or are people playing basic Swamps now?

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Originally Posted by scrumdogg

My problem isn't with his list or the idea of Rg instead or Rb or Rbg. My issue comes from the idea that a creature (or spell) that costs :g: in a deck with only non-basics having game versus Blood Moon. As soon as they land a Blood Moon, your deck loses the ability to deal with their artifacts. At least you can take out Magus without difficulty, but what about the 40% of games where they see a Blood Moon (assuming 4x in the deck at that point)? Is Dragon Stompy not that popular where you are (ironic given how much you've contributed to the deck...) or are there tricks of which I'm unaware?

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You don't care about DS artifact, the only threat he has is its equipments. You've got 4 gempalms for that. And believe me, a good DS player would never keep his Moons MD for the second game.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

EDIT: Also, doesn't the Blood Moon argument hurt R/B worse, given that it shuts off Warren Weirding? Or are people playing basic Swamps now?

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// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
6 [OD] Mountain (4)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [B] Badlands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LRW] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Mad Auntie
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
3 [MOR] Frogtosser Banneret
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
3 [MOR] Earwig Squad

// Spells
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Mad Auntie
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 [5E] Goblin King
SB: 1 [LRW] Tarfire

The King/Tarfie slot is in flux right now, with the possibility of them being (of course) goblin sledders to help vs jitte and dredge. Tarfire is for the control/prison MU, where wort + tarfire is a wincon if SGC is needled. King is for mirror KILL NOW and magus, as well as decking running mountains, and to serve as the 5th lord effect against plague

Yes, I went down to 1 driver, and yes, I'm playing Frogtosser (I run 2 less lands than avg and 6 'chiefs') and Squad, but I've found forgtosser to be the best turn two play you can make without the obvious OMG lackey connects, I am the winRAR. Turn three cheif and matron is much sexier than chief, go. Squad helps the combo MU somewhat, without being as dead as thorn in most matchups, and he can sometimes trade with goyf for B or 1B. Wierding has been insane, but incinerator's ability to instant-speed, uncounterable cantripkill is still really, really good, esp with frogtosser.

Anyhow, I've been running anywhere between 1 and 2 basic swamps ever since I started splashing black.

For the people that have actually played Warren Weirding in a tournament, how did it fare?

What were the decks that you ended up facing?

What was breakdown of the number of Gempalm Incinerator and Weirding?

I suppose the basic swamp isn't all that implausible without Rishadan Port in the way. I could always run a basic forest if the Blood Moon thing ever became an issue, but I've still yet to ever see a DS player leave Blood Moon in against a primarily red deck. And Pyrokinesis/Gempalm makes Magus of the Moon pretty fragile.

Also, Dragon Stompy players definitely aren't going to start leaving Moon in the deck if Goblins starts displaying a tendency of occasionally running a splash-color basic. This would be lunacy if even the threat of such a play exists. Better to shut off Hooligan/Weirding with a Chalice for 2 than to attempt a Blood Moon.

Has anyone found a way to play against aggro loam decks? This matchup is a nightmare. The only technic i found was to play CotV at 2, but you can only play it turn 4, and Aggro Loam have a lot of solutions for it.

In terms of deckbuilding:

- Play four Weirdings. Play four Piledrivers. If you can fit in 1-2 Hooligans, the better.
- Sideboard Leyline or possibly Extirpate, not Crypt.
- Sideboard Pithing Needle (for Seismic Assault), unless players in your area run Chalice, in which case it's better to go with the standard Krosan Grips.

In terms of gameplay:
- Don't overextend. Have a plan ready for a Devastating Dreams.
- Pay attention to your Wastelands. Loam can recover from LD easily, but at the right time you can still Time Walk them and steal wins. Hooligan on a Mox Diamond is even better.

I just played an aggro loam deck with my RB, and wierding, vial, and earwig squad are your buddies. Squad took away the dreams, and ringleaders through vial kept my hand loaded and the pressure on. Wasteland/tinkerer moxen to keep them off seismic assault mana, if they get a seismic, you probably lose. If you can get a wort to stick, its really hard for them to win with recurring wierdings.

EDIT: Nihil beat me to it. The biggest is dont overextend. (unless you play squads, in which case, you know exactly whats in their hand/deck, and bash face.) Ringleaders > all. SGC can usually milk about 6 damage, but keep vial at four for aunties and ringleaders, unless you have two mana for SGC EOT, untap, win.

Am I seriously the only one not having any trouble with the Aggroloam matchup?

I play Rbg with 2 Gempalm/3 Weirding and 4 Leylines on the side. As long as you don't overextend and keep in mind to keep hands with sufficient mana, you should be ok.

Leyline slows them down if you have it in your opening hand and annoys them if you hardcast. Devastating dreams just makes it a race to recover. They might have their manabase back up a bit faster, they're still quite easily smashed down by a Piledriver.

Still not convinced about the Earwig Squad though. I have 1 Free goblin Slot MB and 1 SB, which are taken by Tin-Street and Mad Auntie. I wouldnt really know what to cut for the Squads in terms of goblins, since the Auntie is necessary vs Plague.

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Has anyone found a way to play against aggro loam decks?

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at my last french tournament (47 people i finished 5th), my last round was against RG aggro loam with countryside crusher, terravore and goyf... big beasts!
Well i loose the game 1 (burning wish into pyroclasm, devastating dreams, terravore 12/12 trample, big crusher,...).
At the 2nd, i side in 2 weirding and 4 pyrokinesis. I won on a devasting dream at 2 which made him discard terravore and goyf, and i killed his crusher (he has played it after DD) with pyrokinesis.
Game 3, i won because at the 2nd, i had wished for pyroclasm but he forgot to put it in his side befor the game 3, so he took a game loss

So aggro loam is defavorable (you can win with a lot of chance) and i don't think you can win after side in... maybe weirding is one of your best solutions if he doesn't play wasteland on your badlands. Pyrokinesis is also a plus. But the big threaten is terravore which can be very big with trample

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Originally Posted by puddn

and i don't think you can win after side in... maybe weirding is one of your best solutions if he doesn't play wasteland on your badlands. Pyrokinesis is also a plus. But the big threaten is terravore which can be very big with trample

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Most Rb lists run Weirding main and with Leyline post-side, I think you're being a bit pessimistic.

POP from the side should improve that matchup.

POP? what's this

Im not sure but maybe Price of Progress.

Price of Pop music?

I dont like pop in the sb because it is "just" a big burn spell, and we also run a lot of nonbasic lands...

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Originally Posted by HdH_Cthulhu

Price of Pop music?

I dont like pop in the sb because it is "just" a big burn spell, and we also run a lot of nonbasic lands...

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Yeah...but you should be dealing enough damages early game that it won't matter. It's an excellent finisher against deck like Aggro Loam, when they have board control. Plus it fits the aggro nature of the deck rather then playing Leyline or other combo hate. "Just" a burn spell...dealing between 6 and ... damages is good I heard!

@ PoP in the SB: PoP doesnt beat ichorid, it does prety much nothing to iggy, and PoP + your nonbasics+ thier diamond mox + devastating dreams = not a combo, and possibly only 2-4 damage (they WILL fetch basics after they see your wastes)

Additionally, Aggro Loam can beat you with all of three lands on the board, or less if they get Mox Diamonds. And one Price of Progress for 6-8 doesn't exactly fare well when their guys swing for 6-8 apiece per turn.

Tuning Goblins to beat Aggro Loam is about as fruitful as trying to tune Dragon Stompy to beat Enchantress, or Landstill to beat 43 Land, or White Weenie to beat The Epic Storm. You're probably better off shoring up your other matches, hoping Combo stomps Aggro Loam, taking the occasional Aggro Loam loss like a champ, and trying to X-1 your way in.

And if you run the Quad-Weirding build, all isn't lost. Just keep them off Devastating Dreams (Earwig Squad helps, otherwise you're just going to hope they don't draw it.) If you run my Quad-Hooligan build, attack their Moxes and Taigas like crazy. Unfavorable doesn't mean you can't randomly steal a win every now and again.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

And if you run the Quad-Weirding build, all isn't lost. Just keep them off Devastating Dreams (Earwig Squad helps, otherwise you're just going to hope they don't draw it.) If you run my Quad-Hooligan build, attack their Moxes and Taigas like crazy. Unfavorable doesn't mean you can't randomly steal a win every now and again.

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Or something like this could happen:

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Originally Posted by puddn

Game 3, i won because at the 2nd, [he] had wished for pyroclasm but he forgot to put it in his side befor the game 3, so he took a game loss

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