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That was clearly a typo, he meant "now" not "not", the sentence doesnt make any sense otherwise :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
And for the record, no silver-bullet SB creature impresses me enough to run, although if another month or two pass and I still dont really use the Ancient Grudge in my SB I may opt to run something in its place.
Here's the list I run, simple but still effective.
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass
// Creatures
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
2 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [OD] Careful Study
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
I have a question though... How do you board for this deck? I really have no clue what I could take out for the SB cards... maybe the Dread Returns and the targets?... What else?
About the sb, I'm having trouble also. I run this EXACT list with the exception of -1 Thug +1 Deep Anal. (lol, my friend and I crack up every time I say it like that).Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
About your board, why is chalice run so much? What does it stop? I see it in tons of lists, but I can't justify running it over Needle. Someone clue me in...is it a free stop against crypt as opposed to the 1cc of Needle?
I must say that it's an incredibly nice change to have a deck with such a simple SB...Fetchland Tendrils, Landstill and Stax builds are teh nutz to sb with...
As to the Silver Bullet thingy, the most effective in my opinion seem to be Sundering Titan or Akroma, Angel of Fury (yeah, I said it...:/)
Chalice stops BOTH: Crypt AND Engineered Explosives, Needle can only handle one of those and in addition to that Chalice is for free.
I would just like to add that chalice slows down storm conbo as well making their LEDs and petals useless
The disadvantage of chalice is that you have to be on the play and it has to be in the opening hand for it to be truly useful and multiple chalices are not as good as multiple needles.
The main reason for me to play Chalice is the mana cost. I hate to see Needle without land, and Chalice helps against Crypt and Explosives (Thresh, Landstill) and Crypt and Moxes (Dragon Stompy, Loam, Affinity). I usually don't board them against combo (if the don't play Crypts) since I want to be as fast as possible and Cabal Therapy is much better than Chalice at disrupting.
For the two open slots, the Street Wraiths were golden to me. Additional Ichroid-fudder is often game-saving, especially against control or if your opponent has small blockers to remove your Bridges, because you can slow-play and build up a little Zombie army before attacking.
Generally, the discardplan is what makes this deck so strong against control and as many others said before, casting spells gives your opponents the chance interact and timewalk you. Street Wraiths are nice again, because they can speed up things by a turn.
Sideboarding is however still a problem to me; I'm not sure about
a) bringing in Chalices g2 on the draw against Crypts
b) bringing in Ancient Grudge against Crypts
c) bringing in Rays against Leylines in addition to the 4 Chains.
As for the Leyline as a Sideboardcard: You will only need it against Breakfast and the mirror; however I would not want to miss it in the mirror, because with both Leyline and Chains you have to have 1 of 8 cards in your starting hand, whith only Chains it's 1 out of 4.
Chalice comes in on the play when you fear Crypt. You'll also often see Ancient Grudges in the board for that purpose. Ray comes in when you fear Leyline. Leyline comes in against the mirror and against decks that have a way of sacrificing their creatures to remove your bridges. Chain of Vapor is a catch-all for permanent-based hate, and comes in for the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Against most decks, the Dread Return package comes out for answers to hate. When you need to keep it in (in order to race combo, for example), you can often do something like -2 Careful Study, -1 Thug, -1 Ichorid.
Depending on your exact configuration, taking out the combo gives you 4-6 slots. You'll sometimes need to board in 8 cards, so you can usually take out the combo, and then one or two of Careful Study (if you play it,) Thug, Ichorid, and Therapy. Also, even when I board out the combo, I will sometimes leave in a single Dread Return against decks where a large Golgari Grave-Troll can sometimes be enough to seal the deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by b4r0n
And how do you expext to target a crypt with one grudge that just so happens to be sitting in your graveyard and on top of 1/3 of your deck? If they respond to your grudge with an activated crypt, your graveyard is gone. If you respond to an activated crypt with a grudge, your graveyard is still gone. Ray is another deal. I guess if they play Leyline with four mana and you have already dredged the shit it would be nice, but until then Ray of Revelation is useless.
It seems like Ray of Revelation might not be the best card for its job. If all you really want it for is to get rid of leyline would something like Erase be better? Flashback on the ray is nice, but its most imortant job is still getting rid of a turn zero leyline - when the flashback doesn't help. I guess this really boils down to two questions:
1. How hard is it to hit two mana?
2. How often do you flashback the ray?
Although, ray is definatley better for dealing with things like Deed and Propoganda, though those are often too slow to matter.
The answer to leyline is not erase. It is chain of vapor. You simply bounce it to their hand and then rip it out via cabal therapy. Plus, leyline of the void costs four. THe whole point of ancient grudge and ray of revelation is to play them back from the graveyard to get rid of some annoying artifact or enchantment like ensnaring bridge or moat. Chain of vapor is to use against jailers, leylines, and such. Pithing needle is to be used against engineered explosives, powder kegs, and mainly tormod's crypt.
It can sometimes be hard to hit two lands, because you obviously run only 12.
but not unlikely at all. However, there often comes a point where you have to go balls to the wall and not look back.
Ray can come in against Leyline in addition to Chains, but it's main purpose is not removing Leyline, but Ghostly Prison, Moat and Propaganda. Prison can come down turn one, and Control can slow us down long enough (countering outlets/letting us go for the discard plan). It also kills Solitary Confinement, Elephant Grass and Ground Seal, which can help against Enchantress (although the MU is still quite bad, I guess).Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
On the other hand, Woodfall Primus handles every single one of those permanents as well, and always destroys two of them, Ray only if hardcasted AND flashbacked.
Woodfall Primus doesn't handle Ground Seal. Not that this is incredibly relevant, just saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daze
The Enchantress matchup is already neigh-unwinnable. I think you just give that one up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Well, I wasn't really arguing this point at all, but I will just for the hell of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man
Your sideboard isn't going to fix your shit against Enchantress unless you run quad Serenity (And despite all my arguments in favor of it earlier in the thread, I don't.) There's too much hate for you to overcome.
That means your best strategy, IMO, is speed, explosiveness, and Cabal Therapy. On the play, a strong turn one start, even if it doesn't result in a win, can at least roll part of your deck and let you Therapy out Elephant Grass. This will Time Walk you into either a win, or more Therapy power to get rid of Confinement/Ground Seal/Sterling Grove/whatever. I've won a fair share of games doing this.
On the draw, same deal, it's just a little tougher, as you have a lot more different targets to worry about naming with Therapy if they lead with, say, Forest/Utopia Sprawl. If they lead with Forest/Elephant Grass/Go, which I don't see often, assume they're planning to stall a couple turns until they can cast something that wrecks you even worse, and then try to Therapy those pieces out of their hand.
So while I concur that the match is pretty much awful squared, I don't find it to be unwinnable. I just think that Ray of Revelation/Chain of Vapor/Removal is the wrong strategy, unless you're going to commit to board-sweeping removal.
I hope your not serious. Ive played against it a ton and only found problems when I ran into a turn one Enchantress Effect or Turn 1 Elephant Grass, backed by another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man
Cabal Therapy mauls them if you play it correctly. They can't counter it and can only rip answers off the top. Take Elephant Grass, take Enlightened Tutors, hit Confinement.
Ground Seal only shuts down Dread Return which is no big deal. Some of them don't even bring in a sideboard against you.
Sideboard in Chalice of the Void, play aggressively to take advantage of being the fastest deck in the format. Leave in FKZ.
_Bane
So, what _is_ the best sideboard cards? What matchups become severly improved when the SB hate is brought in? My SB looks like:
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
Primus is mostly that 2nd ray/grudge, but I'm pissed off that it can't take on annoying dudes.
Ray of Revelation is for deed and propaganda.
Ancient Grudge is for Engineered Explosives, and situational against crypt. I think it's a great advantage by forcing them to removing GY AtM you play grudge.
Chain of Vapor is against all sorts of permanents that would otherwise kick your ass.
Chalice of the Void is against combo, EE and Crypts.
Pithing Needle is for Deed, Belcher and EE.
Have I missed something? More Rays/Grudges? Ancestor's Chosen? I think it's sweet to have a very simple and focused SB. What do you think?
You forgot Leyline of the Void. I would never think of going into a tournament without them. This isnt extended, legacy has much more to do with the yard. Besides you don't want to run into the mirror without them.Quote:
Originally Posted by willoe
Sounds reasonable. What to cut?
EDIT: Ahem. What a crappy question, in fact. It's for an unknown meta, just so you know. But I heard there's a lot of thresh-esque builds, so I thought this deck might be a good choice. Thanks! :D
Sincerely,
Ichorid Newbie willoe
If your sure your facing alot of control and not aggro Id push for you to play my present build that features a PImp count of 2 and Street Wraith as a 3 of. It give's you more immunity to counterspells, pithing needle, and removal. I have my latest list posted a couple pages back.Quote:
Originally Posted by willoe
A tip when playing against thresh. It's ok to go to discard, pitch a troll, then not dredge it but let it sit for a turn or two while you rebuild your continue to take draw phases and pitch additional Cabal Therapies, Ichorids, and Bridges. Then you cant set up a large breakthrough or draw into LED's. This is especially effective game two when you have Leyline out and their goyf(s) are just 1/2's because of just creatures in your yard. ect.
Ichorid is about learning how to bluff your opponent and outplay them.
EDIT
Cut Chalice or Needle. You only need one. I prefer Chalice since it's zero mana friendly and devestating set at one. People assume you won't get the 2nd land but dredging into Dakmor Salvage can cast it mid game if you didnt pitch your hand via LED. Setting a Chalice at 0 is far more effective against combo decks then Pithing Needle. So keep that mindset concerning your meta.
Chalice can really mise games against decks featuring mox mana such as Faerie Stompy and Dragon Stompy. Loosing Chrome Mox can lose them the game. Against Angel Stompy they cant drop Mox Diamond or get a quick Exalted out. Against the mirror you can set Chalice at 0 to win the LED war.