[Deck] Armageddon Stax

Some suggestions that might work..
1. Caltrops would be nice against swarm and not totally bad with no Humility against 2/1 creatures. Has a lower casting cost over wrath of god but wrath of god is still good since caltrops requires a combo to work.

2. 4 Humility and 4 Moat i think is a must

3. Smokestack maybe 3 ? since its clock became abit slower without Magus + Geddon to wipe creatures on the board. Opponent could just cast creatures after creatures so that they wouldn't suffer the smokestack until they get or find a way to remove the humility / moat.

4. Faerie decks would be a problem with no humility.

5. For me sphere of resistance would work better over sphere of law.

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

I've tried Gargoyle before in the old build, and he went straight out. Just like Windborn Muse, he's simply too vulnerable.

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Could you elaborate? What was it vulnerable to? Were you playing it maindeck or in the sideboard? Maybe they were keeping StP and the like in after boarding because you had other important creatures in the first game (Magus, Muse, Angel, whatever)? That wouldn't be an issue with the Elspeth builds.

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Also, costing :3::w::w:, he's just not worth the trouble. I must admit I haven't tried him in combination with Moat, but with Humility in the same build, again, probably not worth the trouble. I really rather play Pithing Needle.

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True, it conflicts with Humility; Needle also conflicts with Chalice at one. This doesn't actually say very much before you do an analysis of which decks you want Humility and Gargoyle against, or both Chalice at one and Needle, and where you want both, whether the benefits outweigh the risks, and so on. Against most Pernicious Deed decks I think Gargoyle would actually be harder to get rid of than Needle. If you manage to get a Gargoyle down naming Deed, if they either took out Swords or you have a Chalice at one, he could be practically unkillable -- Grip doesn't hit him, and they're not going to have five colors for Explosives. It also takes a lot of mana to Deed him if you name something else. Whereas Needle can be Gripped, and is exceedingly easy to Deed or EE away when you have it naming the other one. But obviously Needle is a lot easier to slip in under countermagic. So both of them have their advantages and drawbacks, but I don't think Gargoyle should be dismissed so lightly. (And obviously there's the factor that Gargoyle is also Meddling Mage. Needle can't do jack against instants and sorceries.)

@ voidstone gargoyle

Although he may seem useful, I guess one problem with this is that you will have to assume that your opponent will board out his creature control(seeing that you dont have a single one). He does however hurt decks in some way, you will also have to consider which match up he is good against... I think he is pretty good in pernicious based decks since you usually name deed. Creature control will MOST LIKELY be out...So assuming he will usually be boarded in against control, and he is added help against combo...Does he really help against the bad match ups... Landstill? loam based decks (there will be so many cards to name), Stompy variants?

I have never tested him but I don't like the fact that he is 3/3 and he's rather slow. Aside from him being totally useless with humility in play. I really don't think he is still sideboard material.

I play the traditional Geddon Stax build, with Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle. I've also ran 1 moat in my build for a long time. I have a lot of trouble beating Threshold decks, even though I hear Stax is supposed to win that matchup. Anybody have any tips?

How about Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt. I actually play 3 of the first and 2 of the second in side against Threshold, Ichorid and Life. It works.

I don't play any Humility and I've never seen any GeddonStax running it. I've never tested it. I'll do. Thanks for the tip! :)

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Originally Posted by Patrick

I play the traditional Geddon Stax build, with Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle. I've also ran 1 moat in my build for a long time. I have a lot of trouble beating Threshold decks, even though I hear Stax is supposed to win that matchup. Anybody have any tips?

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Play 3-4 Defense Grid in the SB, 3 Oblivion Ring in the MD and you should be all set.

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Originally Posted by Patrick

I play the traditional Geddon Stax build, with Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle. I've also ran 1 moat in my build for a long time. I have a lot of trouble beating Threshold decks, even though I hear Stax is supposed to win that matchup. Anybody have any tips?

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Although this is a good match up, its not an easy one. For me I tend to focus more on the lock against threshold, rather than beating down with angels, I usually side out ghostly prison and angels.Bring in added lock pieces, from sphere of resistance, defense grid,suppression fields(if you have them on your sideboard,O. rings or P. needles(on fetchlands even). I leave magus for blocking purposes. THreshold runs a few permanents, a single chalice at 1 would really hurt their deck. Trinisphere on the table gives them a migrane. Smokestack would hurt. Over all we really do have a good match up. I think you just have to learn on how to bait or mulligan for the right hand. This however is my opinion

This is my updated list. I'd like to have some comments, 'cause I'm going to play it in some of new year's local events.

Creatures (6)
3 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Spells (30)
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Lands (25)
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
7 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Aura of Silence
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 True Believer

@Luca.
Since Ghostly Prisons actually mostly get insane in multiples; I'd never leave home without a playset in the MD.
Your list is really tight so it's hard to find room for it.
I'm pretty sure cutting the 4th Trinisphere is generally agreed upon, since it's the only card that you'll only need once (if not countered).
Also, I'd cut a Plains and a Factory (2-3 should really be enough) for the 4th Tomb (this is MANDATORY) and possibly the 4th City (which is optional).
Don't forget you're running 3 (!) Angels to makeup for the life loss.
As for the SB:
True Believer I assume comes in exclusively against combo (correct me if I'm wrong) - the combo MU already should be in your favor, though (especially with 4 SPheres!!).
I'd actually consider cutting the Spheres for Ethersworn Canonists which allows you to replace the Believers with Defense Grids.
This way you specialize your SB against certain archetypes instead of boasting 8 semi-solutions to some decks.
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That being said, I got my cute ass kicked by 66% of the decks that I faced during a recent tournament. This was my list:

2 Elspeth
2 Ajani V.
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat
1 Wrath of God
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
3 Armageddon
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
(--35--)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
5 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Plateau
1 Mishra's Factory

SB:
3 Exalted Angel
4 Defense Grid
4 Pithing Needle
1 Wrath of God
3 Ethersworn Canonist

My MUs were:
Tier2 Burn----win: via Ajani Geddon and Smokestack:wink:
BW-Aggro(?)-win
Merfolk-------lose: G1: Vial, G2: Jitte
RW-Sligh-----lose: due to bad luck and boarding mistakes. G3 he topdecks a Mogg, me being at 1 life, with Angel ftw waiting on the board.
Dredge-------lose to Woodfall primus+flashback
BW-aggro----lose to severael vindicates

And it was all my bad. I didn't really test the list thoroughly beforehand.
Had I done that I would have gathered the following insights:
- while E. Bridge is super it doesn't synergyze with Geddon
- it also doesn't synergize well with tons of CMC4 spells
- it does syngerize with Chrome Mox
- so I'm considering a 3-Mox-D./2-C.-Mox split: Hellbent FTW!
- no kidding I'm even pondering on 2 L. Helix MD!
- Oblivioin Ring will be a 4of, replacing the 4th Wrath
- While the idea of boarding in Angels against Aggro+Burn seems tempting, she was ALWAYS 1 turn late and will thus be replaced by 3 Ajani G.s
- Moat needs to be a 3of but who can afford that?!

Heh. I'm aware that the optimized list cannot be considered "Geddon" Stax any longer and thus doesn't really belong in this threat. That's why it's in type size "1" :tongue:

RW Stax 2.0__(EDITED)
2 Elspeth
2 Ajani V.
4 Chalice
4 Bridge
4 Trini
4 Ring
3 Moat
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
--34--
4 Tomb
3 City
3 Flagstones
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
4 Plains
4 Plateau
3 Mishra's Factory
--26--
SB:
3 Ajani Goldmane
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Defense Grid
4 Pithing Needle
2 "meta slots"


I'm pretty eager to test that shit and let you know how it went.
-
Klaus.

PS: Ensnaring Bridge>Humility ;)

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Originally Posted by f|i[p]

Although this is a good match up, its not an easy one. For me I tend to focus more on the lock against threshold, rather than beating down with angels, I usually side out ghostly prison and angels.Bring in added lock pieces, from sphere of resistance, defense grid,suppression fields(if you have them on your sideboard,O. rings or P. needles(on fetchlands even). I leave magus for blocking purposes. THreshold runs a few permanents, a single chalice at 1 would really hurt their deck. Trinisphere on the table gives them a migrane. Smokestack would hurt. Over all we really do have a good match up. I think you just have to learn on how to bait or mulligan for the right hand. This however is my opinion

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Thanks for the advice! Lately I've been scooping to a red splash tempo build.

@ Luca

Judging from your maindeck and sideboard, I suspect you have a meta with lots and lots of Storm combo. Between CotV, 3Sphere maindeck, and 4 Sphere of Resistance in the SB, you should have a pretty good chance at locking them out long enough to establish a hardlock, then win from there. If you really, really want more tools versus Storm combo, I suppose Gilded Light would be slightly better than True Believer. Gilded Light can't be bounced eot, it can't be killed, and I doubt that the Storm player would Duress/Thoughtseize a Stax player before going off, so you may be able to surprise them when they cast their lethal ToA. Not a great SB option, but better than True Believer imo.

Also, I echo most of klaus' sentiments; Ghostly Prison should be run at 4 (even in a heavy Storm meta), you should cut a Plains for the 4th Ancient Tomb, and Defense Grid should be somewhere in there (although, if control/Thresh isn't that big in your area, then maybe not, but 4x Defense Grid is sort of a Stax SB staple). Consider Pithing Needle (or Suppression Field if you can't find/afford Needle) versus non-Storm combo, and to combat control (Deed, Shackles, etc).

Thanks a lot, Klaus! Thanks Arsenal
I really agree with your ideas. After a little, I came up with this:

Creatures (6)
3 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Spells (29)
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

Lands (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
6 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
3 Defense Grid
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

I think I'm set! Any other comments?

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Originally Posted by Luca_Girolami

Sideboard (15)
3 Defense Grid
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

I think I'm set! Any other comments?

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Defense Grid is a good card, but while reading up on the "Threshold" thread, the "Team America" thread, the "Landstill" thread, and the "It's the Fear" thread, one thing that these four decks have in common is they have a huge problem with the "Blood Moon" effect. I have been playtesting Stax for over two years, and one of the best additions to the SB I have found is Blood Moon. If you can drop a Blood Moon at any point in the game against and Blue Deck, unless it is Mono Blue, they are forced to counter it. In the past, I have had problems with Threshold, Landstill, ITF, Team America, and Dreadstill. With Blood Moon in my Sideboard, I actually beat them now.

Ethersworn Canonist is good, but I don't understand if it is worthy enough to have a spot in the sideboard. It costs 2, which isn't a big deal, but With stax, you should always be able to cast a 3cc, like Rule of Law. Canonist is also a 2/2, which is easiily killed. What is this helping against?

Needle and Relic are 1cc. Doesn't this go against the biggest goal of the match (Landing CotV @ 1)?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Luca_Girolami

I think I'm set! Any other comments?

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Flagstones should always be a 4of in my humble opinion. It synergizes too well with Armageddon and Smokestack to cut them down to 3. I'd actually cut 1 Factory for the 4th Flagstones.

Canonist is really only worth the slots if you expect at least 10% combo and even then 3 should be enough, since you're combo MU is positive G1 and slightly positive G2/3.

3 Crypts should be better than your split since they don't intefere with Chalice.

With those 2 slots saved, I'd consider adding the 4th Magus against swarmaggro.dec and the 4th Trinisphere against combo, Threshhold and the likes.

So you'd end up with something along the lines of:

3 Defense Grid
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pithing Needle---------could be 4 Suppression Fields, too (-1 Trini then)
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Trinisphere
1 Magus of the Tabernacle

Best,
Klaus

I am getting the impression in some cases from people that is as if the hinderance of one spell per turn did not exist before canonist.

Why the fuck are people running it instead of rule of law? I don't get it...are you folks scared of daze or something?

Rule of law is more dificult to kill, comes down just as fast in 90% of games and is largely supplimental to 3spere anyway.

I don't want to beat a dead horse or anything, but I think white stax needs to see some actual innovation to be a deck to beat again. Folks should know immediately that their list that looks almost the exact same as almost any list that has been posted on this thread, it should be fine.

I am not meaning to come across as an asshole or someone that knows everything there is to know about the archetype, but the fact that it is performing solidly, but is not quite getting there. Deckcheck.net provides a see of numbers between three and sixteen as far as the deck placing is concerned in bigger touranments and I think this is largely due to a shift in the format that this deck has not seemed to move along with.

Sorry if I am way off here, but I keep seeing the same deck almost(minus some sideaboard slots and a few more of something and a bit less of something) get posted on this thread over and over and over. ack.

IMO Sphere of Resistance is more relevant as a lock piece now than ever due to the lighter and more highly tuned manabases. If we are going to work the Armageddon angle, I think maximum disruption to a manabase even to the inclusion of suppression field should be considered.

Hello all,
After entering a local tournament in our place with 20+ players sad to say but i end up with a 2-3 win-loss record, playing geddonstax

Lands
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
2 crystal vein
3 wasteland
3 flagstone of trokair
3 mishara's factory
8 plains
4 mox diamond
1 tabernacle of pendralveil
29

Spells
4 armageddon
4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
3 crusible of worlds
3 smokestack
4 ghostly prison
3 oblivion ring
25

Beats
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Exalted Angel
1 Elspeth
6

SB
3 tormods crypt
3 pithing needle
3 aura of silence
3 sphere of resistance
3 defense grid

Game 1 0-0
vs Meathooks~fish
I was overwhelmed with slivers and was able to counter key cards. I won 1 game through droping sphere of resistance on my 1st turn due to his low mana curve

Game 2 0-1
vs Ichorid
I swepth him forgot the details but expect that i mulled in our games to get a trinisphere, ghostly prison, sphere or resistance

Game 3 1-1
vs Anksligh
Thanks for exalted angel, sphere of resistance & crystal vein. I just barely able to win games without them. Droping a land and having painlands was very very painful.

Game 4 2-1
vs Meathooks
I had no answer for crystaline & harmonic sliver.

Game 5 2-2
vs Redburn
Sphere of Resistance was a so so card here. But again thanks to exalted angel for squeezing a win even if it was just 1 game. He has mb ingot chewer & Smash to Smithereens. His deck was attuned in combating decks packing artifacts in there deck.

ended with a 2-3 record

A few notes:
1. exalted angel / creature with life link is great for recovering life lost especially against burn decks
2. nohmad collesium, zuran orb, wrath of god & ivory mask could be considered in sb list.

The top 8 where:
1. Affinity
2. Threshold
3. 36lands
4. Painter's Landstill
5. 43 lands
6. Iggy pop
7. Counterslivers
8. Anksligh

In general, isn't Oblivion Ring kinda unnecessary as a 3-of or 4-of? You really need the redundancy in lock pieces to really make Stax consistent. Many of the time, when you're playing Stax, a lock piece is more often than not better than Oblivion Ring (especially the 4th Crucible, WAY WAY better, it's an automatic 4-of). Of course, Oblivion Ring is still useful on its own, so 1-2 should be fine.

Oblivion ring's importance has been mentioned a lot throughout the thread: It protects traditional builds against some of the worst cards that it can see because sometimes, a lock doesn't work fast enough.

Two of a card that protects you against your weakest/hardest matches and in a deck that has absolutely no draw or manipulation beyond four cards that fetch a plains is...uhm...retarded in my opinion. Running three crucibles is also crazy to me because that is one of the cards that I will often pitch the rest of my hand as counterfodder to get on the table. Crucible helps support smokers at one and with a flagstones, helps you support a two point smoker which is pretty much gg after two turns in lots of games. Crucible is also awesome with mishra's, wastelands, geddon and singleton lands, like kor haven. I never thought that a crucible play set would ever really come into question...especially with decks like TA on the rise.

@klaus RW list

I like the innovation, but chrome mox? We already have problems drawing cards and now your going to pitch one spell? How are you going to get colored spells in there, when we mostly have artifacts...I can count around 13 colored spells in your list ... I think chrome mox would be a waste of space.. Lightning helix??

@LUCA

Your list seems ok, the cannonists are good for baiting counters, with smokestack or an important artifact, then dropping geddon after. But I would always rather have sphere of resistance on the side, Its much more effective and more versatile just as jazzykat mentioned. But if you really want an out against storm combo, Rule of law would be my card of choice, it will buy you enough time to drop your chalice or trinisphere if you don't already have one in play. But as for me, I generally put 2-3 sphere of resistances just to help against storm and thats it.

As for flagstones, I have actually cut mine to 3 and have never regretted that decision, although it helps with armageddon and smokestack a lot. I hate having 2 flagstones in my hand or at a time. This will come down to your own personal opinion.

@OneBigSquirrelGod

I actually agree about the blood moon, but this is only if you are willing to splash red to have better sideboard options...

About relic and needle, One thing you always have to think of is that, we don't run 30 chalice's. We won't always have it in our opening hand. P. needles and relics are spells we can put down 1st turn. Decks also tend to destroy or counter chalice @ 1. You also have to remember that we also put down chalice @ 2. And yet we use sphere of resistance and defense grids as a good sideboard option.

@ Mordel

Cannonist is actually useful, don't dismiss it right away, it just so happens that there are better options available as you said. No reason to react in such a bad manner.

@erbs

The top 8 is actually filled with decks that we really don't want to see, like land.deck and landstill. I am however assuming that affinity is tougher than goblins as a match up for us as they are faster and have flyers. I am however curious about the sliver match up. Was it really that bad?