I'd cut Cabal Ritual if you don't have SSGQuote:
Originally Posted by Omega
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I'd cut Cabal Ritual if you don't have SSGQuote:
Originally Posted by Omega
I played TES yesterday at the Manchester tournament. Going 2-3 in swiss.Brief recap:
round 1 vs merfolk:
I drop turn 1 mine. He drops mutavault, vial, pass. I mystical EOT for a dark rit. My turn, draw, ritual, ritual, nauseam(resolves), I get down to 2 without seeing enough mana sources to combo out. I pass(discarding 7 cards), he untaps, plays island and swings with vault(we laugh at the turn 2 win he got with merfolk)
game 2 i bring in blasts and xantids:
I get a great protection heavy hand, but cant draw enough business before the little blue men kill me.
round 2: goblins
game 1 I turn 2 nauseam after chain of vaporing his lackey back to his hand. I get gains loop for the win
game 2: he drops chalice at 0 turn 1(my hand was mine, LED, LED, brainstorm, AN, petal, ponder-turn 2 win(?), wasteland, vial. I ponder turn 1, my land gets wasted, then he drops another wasteland, then another. He gets creatures vialed in, gg.
game3: i tell him I really need to win turn 1 to be safe: my openeing 7: orchard, LED, LED, IT, tendrils, petal, dark ritual. Awesome
round 3:Imperial Painter
game1: he gets relic out turn 1. I have the nuts to go off, and he has the simian spirit guide in his hand to blast the grave away when I Gains(frown town)
Game 2: I have a mediocre hand with shattering spree and pyroblast(awesome), he gets magus out turn 2. THen a painter, i ask "color?" he says blue, he goes to attack and I pyroblast the magus, he didnt see that coming :wink: He drops chalice at 2, i shattering spree the chalice and the painter. He nails me with the spirit tokens I gave him off orchard. He ends up getting trini out since I am not drawing any heat. He ends up getting grindstone out and winning shortly after.
round 4: survival (Jaynel)-( he got paried down against me, if he would have asked for my record or even said anything I would have scooped to him)
game 1: I win turn 2 with a gains loop. I chanted him on his turn to prevent thoughtseize etc...
game 2: i have a hand with a TON of acceleration and no business, but i have a duress and a brainstorm. He duressed me taking brainstorm. I duress him seeing 2 creatures and lands. I get a burning wish off my topdeck, and he has only drawn 2 cards since i duressed so i go all in for an empty the warrens for 14 tokens. they take him down in 2 turns.
round 5: aggro loam
not sure what he was playing so I keep a moderate hand. He gets chalice for 1 out early followed by a crusher. I cant get another red source to replicate the spree I wished for(used a petal). he takes me down quick
game 2. Thinking back on it, I made a play error here and could have won outright instead of IT'ing for AN. But hey, first time playing with the deck, Im bound to make 1 mistake for 5 rounds.
Cut to top 8 and obv Im not in it.
I would have to say, AN is the best and worst card in this deck. I know most are arguementative to keeping 2 in there(which I played) but they fucking kill me.
You want Ponders, board out 2 Infernal 2 Cabal Ritual then ponders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega
Why wouldn't you stop before going low enough to die to Mutavault? Also, Ad Nauseum? You don't take chances like that with relic in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruenor
My last card I flipped was gains, so it took me down fast, all I needed was a chrome mox to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
And the ONLY card that could have stopped me from winning with relic in play was SSG. He had it, if I had waited he would have been able to sit on relic.... You cant tell me you would not have gone for the throat and played the chance that he didnt have 1 of his 4 ofs in his hand.
I think what Bryant meant was that you could've tutored for Ad Nauseam instead of IGG: you should win anyway and you don't expose yourself to relic.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruenor
aside from the fact you cant burning wish for Ad NauseamQuote:
Originally Posted by loop
Well, if your only business was 2x BWish it's different obviously, I assumed you had 1 IT.
My turn was: land, dark ritual, infernal tutor(reveal LED), play LED, LED, lotus petal, burning wish(cracking LED's). It was savage, it was either wait a turn anyways and probably get shut down my magus or something. I still feel attempting the turn 1 was the best chance I had at winning this matchQuote:
Originally Posted by loop
Diminishing Returns. My point being don't walk into hate, especially when it's on the table.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruenor
eh, fair enough this was a valid play to make..... But i would have kicked myself if knowing I could have just won turn 1. I still think the percentages were in my favor to succeedQuote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Land, petal, dark ritual, LED, IT -> Ad nauseam?Quote:
Originally Posted by bruenor
again, only a possibility that I will win after nauseam. Its not a definite victory. Nauseam killed me twice yesterday. Its a great card, but the WORST way to win for this deck as it can failQuote:
Originally Posted by loop
Also, you could have just gone Land, Petal, Ritual, LED, Infernal popping LED for Ad Nauseam. You'd have 0 floating but no pressure on the board, so you could kill the next turn if you really needed to.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruenor
EDIT: Oops, Sarnath'd. But still, I think I'd rather take the chance of Ad Nauseam-ing at 20 life with a clear board than going for IGG with a Relic in play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruenor
I'm sorry, but that sounds really stupid to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruenor
Unless I'm mistaken, he has around 40% chance to have 1 of a 4-of in his hand, do you think that the odds of Ad Nauseam killing you while you're at 20 life are higher?
@ bruenor: The first thing I thought about was, why the hell didn't you just Empty the Warrens? I gather that this was your opening hand correct:
IT, BW, Land, LED, Petal, Dark Ritual, something irrelevant. Diminishing Returns is also a viable option, however, he could potentially have SSG + Blast in hand to stop that. EtW is the safest choice here since it is unlikely he has City/Tomb, Grindstone, Painter in hand and won't be able to combo you out within the next 2 turns you give him but it is possible. Casting turn 1 Ad Nauseam against a deck like this is never bad. If you don't draw enough resources to win, you most likely will be able to win on turn 2 afterwards. I think in this situation EtW for 14 is the best play since it is very unlikely he will be able to combo you out. But he could potentially drop a savage turn 2 Moon effect that may or may not mess you up depending on what was revealed VIA Ad Nauseam.
A small note about playing combo, there are certain players who, despite their best efforts, should not play a combo deck. You can't be afraid of casting cards like Ad Nauseam or Diminishing Returns, and if you are, the only advice is to suck it up and cast them anyway. But a good combo player knows when to mull a bad hand, what hands to keep against certain decks, understands the format fully so they can adapt to the hate cards, and, IMOP the most important, you just have to have that go-for-it mentality. Combo is usually not a good type of deck to play if you are cautious, but it is important to know when to exercise a little caution and when to just go for it.
I think this may be the first thing you've ever said that I agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Being that it was the first time I played this deck competetively, I will learn from my mistakes. Im not in fear of playing nauseam, the card is seriously busted. I know it is a risk you take to win, I have no problem with that. I was more determined to win that turn than to ETW and win 1-2 turns later. Mistakes were made, not a big deal for a first run. The deck is seriously a blast to play.
Yeah, the deck needs a lot of practice in real games (hopefully you goldfished it enough). You'll do better next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
So I'm still getting the hang of playing this deck, it is way more complicated then Ad Nauseam --> haha I win.
Can you guys explain the proper use of IGG and Diminishing returns? I think I am missing the 'IGG loop' idea that I keep hearing. Also Diminishing Returns = SB quasi Ad Nauseam ?
IGG sample hand:Quote:
Originally Posted by Raindown
LED, Dark ritual, Petal, Petal, Land, Infernal tutor.
Play land, petal, Petal, D.Rit, LED
Play Infernal Tutor, Brake LED in responce (BBBBBB in pool)
Find IGG, play it (BB in pool)
Take LED, Dark ritual, Infernal tutor from graveyard
Play LED, D.Rit
Play Infernal Tutor, brake LED in responce (BBBBB in pool)
Find Tendrils and play it for 20 life.
So, you basically have to play a bunch of acceleration, IGG, take back a tutor+2 acceleration pieces and find tendrils.
PROs:
- You can't fizzle
- You don't need life points
WARNINGs:
- Can't be used with graveyard hate online
- Count well the mana and storm or you'll get screwed
- Your opponents are discarding their hand and taking 3 from grave too, so watch out for possible counterspells/stifles/chants/whatever in their graveyard.
- Burning wish removes itself from the game, so you can't get the trick done unless there's a second B.Wish or an Infernal Tutor involved (in hand or graveyard).
Diminishing Returns is basically used when you can't go for Empty the warrens or IGG (maybe you don't have a second tutor in hand or graveyard) and don't have ways (or you are too low on life) to go for Ad Nauseam. You basically float all the mana you can and draw 7, trying to find the win. I particularly use it against discard, where you just play your artifact mana and once you topdeck a Mystical tutor or Infernal Tutor you can go for AN, if you topdeck a burning wish you go for D.Returns.
Here are your approximate chances of winning with Diminishing Returns:
Still having a landdrop:
in pool:
0: 12%
B: 47%
UB: 74%
UBR: 88%
4: 89%
Already having made a landdrop:
in pool:
0: 2%
B: 16%
UB: 47%
UBR: 71%
4: 82%
PROs:
- It's good to go for a turn 1 Diminishing Returns if you can play a land and a bunch of mana. Your new hand can either win you the game now or give you card advantage (you have 7 cards and a land and maybe a petal in play). Your opponent will get 7 new cards and maybe a worse hand that he can't mulligan.
- Good against discard
- Good against graveyard based strategies (Ichorid, Loam), cause they shuffle their graveyard
WARNINGS:
- Your opponents will get a fresh new 7 too. This may mean new stifles/counterspells/chants/extiprates/whatever
- You may remove some important cards from the deck. If you remove both Ad Nauseam you'll just can't find one with an Infernal Tutor. If you remove your Tendrils you'll have to play a Burning Wish to win.