- I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
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- I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
the results of tests are valuable when the reader has all the informations to appreciate the test. If the debate is around competitive playability, and i think it is, so only tests at a competitive level are interesting and valuable. Which means that it requires complete information about this test such as a full decklist, opponents (and tournament conditions...), decklist, pre/post sb and so on...
That kind of test is valuable and deserves to be used as an argument to say if the card is good or not. If these informations are not available, using the "test" arguement remains only a feeling to me. At this point, I have no idea if the cards will or wont have a big impact, but my feeling is they will. And I also remain very sceptic on any test results before they enter into tournaments, so I also disagree with the idea to ban them now.
Being skeptical is probably the best position to take if you have not tested the card in anything. My position is, and always has been, that the card was not broken in the testing I have done, and no where near better than Time Walk.Quote:
Originally Posted by LOurs
Will the card see legacy play? I don't know, but probably. I have not yet seen a list that can really take full advantage of the extra turn, but maybe in time some one can brew that up.
Have you tested it with other decks besides the one in the ChannelFireball article?Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Number of cards preemptively banned: 2.
Number of cards NOT preemptively banned: 10,000+.
Cards not being preemptively banned is the norm. The burden of proof should therefore be on the people who think it should be preemptively banned. And the proof should be more I am seeing being offered so far.
Even if you say "well, sure, only 2 were preemptively banned, but others should have been in retrospect," the number of banned cards is less than 1% of all Magic cards ever printed, meaning the argument still stands.
- The level of proof you/others want is not something that can be realistically achieved at this time (not that I ever claimed to have such proof/evidence). If your claim is "you lack suffice testing to show this needs a preemptive ban" then you are obviously correct. I don't think I was ever implying otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
You said "it is better than time walk."Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I just want a list that I can test that can post similar results to flash/hulk.
Also, I played your list against maverick. All I can say is, the format is still not broken.
- I said "it's better than time walk in some situations".Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
- I don't have one and I never claimed to have one.Quote:
I just want a list that I can test that can post similar results to flash/hulk.
- I believe you.Quote:
Also, I played your list against maverick. All I can say is, the format is still not broken.
This is exactly what you said:Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Of course you don't because then we all would think its broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
- Ah, I meant otherwise. Thank you for that and I apologize for not making that point clear. I sorta assumed people knew what I meant but I didn't post my thoughts clearly. Edited my post and I'll clarify here: the point I was trying to make was that because you have the ability to cast it on your opponents turn with some setup, you can have two-full turns will all of your mana open. In this way it's better than Time Walk: you can only ever cast Time Walk at sorcery speed. Time Walk is clearly a better card, but Temporal Mastery is better than it in some ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
You can achieve this with Sensei's Divining Top. Spin the top to draw a card on your opponents turn with TM on top, cast TM ala it's miracle ability, bam: two turns in a row with all of your mana.
- Well yeah, that is obvious.Quote:
Of course you don't because then we all would think its broken.
Or if it was Time Walk instead of Mastery you could have more easily drawn and casted Time Walk last turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Time Walk - 1 Mastery - 0
Exactly. Either way you lose a turn with that mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Temporal Mastery is only marginally better than Time Walk in that it can't be countered with Spell Snare. Even if you get to play it at instant speed with Sensei's Divining Top, you don't get any board advantage in doing so.
Time Walk is in most cases better than this card because it doesn't exile itself, so you can recast it again and again with some combos.
Well the thing is, the cards that were pre-emptively banned or restricted (Mind's Desire and Memory Jar) were able to be proven to be too strong that early.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
If you haven't been calling for a preemptive ban and instead are just speculating it might become strong enough to warrant banning, then I apologize for misunderstanding you. My issue is not that people say it might deserve banning (technically, almost any card might turn out to need banning if someone stumbles upon a sufficiently strong combo of some kind), but the claim that it deserves a pre-emptive banning.Quote:
If your claim is "you lack suffice testing to show this needs a preemptive ban" then you are obviously correct. I don't think I was ever implying otherwise.
My god I can't believe how much time people have spent arguing about theory instead of just testing the god damn card and seeing how it actually performs. Fuck this pre-emptive ban shit its not worth your time. Just test the card please and then we can stop bickering about something that nobody really understands yet with the exception of talking about what looks good on paper.
"Damn dude my engine looks so sick. My car must be really fast."
"Seriously man? It could just be a really big, inefficient engine. Just drive the car."
"No dude this engine is definitely like the greatest engine ever. Just look at the thing. Imagine what I could do what an engine this big. Is this even street legal?"
"Dude you have no idea how fast your car goes. Just get in the car and drive."
"No dude I'm admiring my absurdly large and clearly illegal engine."
*leaves
Wow, thanks for the Smart Burn list, now I have a lot of brainstorming to do. :laugh:
So, how does everyone feel about paying one white for a Wrath of God?
Will Brainstorm survive this set?
The fact that it is better than wrath of god irks me.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
With all the potentially broken non sense this set has to offer, this is the card I hate the most. Nice board position, but guess what my Sensei's Top was hiding from you? That is right a one mana f'ing wrath of god. I don't care that you have Vengvines in play or a Scavenging ooze in your hand to recoup with because I did not kill your creatures. I put them somewhere irrevelent.
If I lose one match to this son of bitch removal card I will probably just rip my deck to shreds and give my opponent the finger. I guess won't have to worry about losing to this card again because I will only play combo decks while it is legal. Or control.
I would actually rather play against and/or with the former king of board sweepers: Balance. That card at least feels symmetrical(even though I know it is not). This card feels like an ultimate creature rape. WTF wizards of the coast, WTF!
Anybody else kinda feel the same way or am I the only one here?
It's funny you mention SDT because they can WoG you on your turn...Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
...at the end of your turn.
Imagine this: a U/W miracle deck with tops and BS and Temporal Mastery and Terminus. For UW1, they WoG you on your turn and take two turns after the fact.
LOL!
That just pisses me off more. This card even invalidates haste creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
22 Lands (some configuration of Tundras and Underground seas with other lands)
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Temporal Mastery
2 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster mage
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Lingering Souls
3 Spell Snare
This is of course me speculating a list that could use these miracle cards.
At a local Legacy tournament someone told me that Wizards apparently said on Twitter that they were considering an emergency ban on one of the miracle cards (they said Wizards didn't specify which one). But dailymtg (that's the main Twitter account for Magic, right?) doesn't seem to have such a tweet. Did Wizards or a member of R&D say that somewhere else or was the claim that it was said incorrect? Can anyone confirm this?
There won't be an emergency ban. People who have not tested the miracle cards just piss their pants and heared the story about memory jar ... rest is the result of internet-rumor in which a "if it's too strong they may Ban it like Jar" becomes "they'll Ban it like Jar".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
It wasn't on Twitter AFAIK. One of the guys at the WotC booth at PAX East said the red Miracle card would likely be banned in Legacy before it got out of hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
But I want to reforge some souls :(Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
Actually, he didn't say it was the red miracle. He said it was a nonblue miracle. There are a lot of reasons to believe it was reforge the souls, but he didn't specifically stated so.
If it's non-blue, it'd have to be either Reforge the Soul or Terminus.
Yep. I guess it's Reforge the Soul, given Smart Burns recent success.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjumbo03
That's really unfortunate if it's Reforge the Soul because I can't wait for it in my MUD build.
I'm convinced it's Reforge the Souls. Why do they tease us so. :frown:
I don't think it is reforge the soul. It is kind of tough to abuse in combo decks and most other decks can't or don't want to use this card. Not saying it is bad, but don't think the card is going to be widespread or broken enough to warrant a ban.
I think it is Terminus. Invalidating creatures swarms doesn't seem to be a good thing for legacy. Brainstorm sure will help it but Sensei's top will push this card over the top. Hiding in the top three cards until you need it is huge for a control deck. Being able to cast it for one mana is huge. Control decks often lose to swarms before reaching that magical four mana. It is easier to not worry about wasteland or daze when your sweeper is one mana. This card is huge. Control has long been repressed in the format, but this card may have been too aggressively costed.
@anyone comparing wrath of god to Terminus: Terminus does not trigger Bridge from the Below, Ignores Vengvines, and has no disadvantage against Reanimator. Also, it could potentially be cast on your opponents turn to trump haste creatures.
Terminus does all these things for the same mana cost of Swords to Plowshares.
The fact that WotC wants to push creatures(in all formats) befuddles me as to why they printed this non sense of a card.
Terminus does seem totally insane. I expect it to wreak havoc on the format. Uw control will be nigh unbeatable unless Reforge the Soul breaks combo even more absurdly.
Reforge the Souls is absolutely insane in combo vs. Non-Blue decks, at the same time it gives blue decks even more chances to blow you out with FoW. For that reason I don't see it becoming a staple. Terminus is just stupid. I'm not going to say it's broken, it's just why the hell would they print that card?
I've played with Terminus and I say it's a fair card.
Deck list please. I don't believe you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
That's really funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
...hilariousQuote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
// Lands
4 [OD] Island (4)
2 [US] Plains (3)
2 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [B] Tundra
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [B] Plateau
// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
// Spells
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AVR] Terminus
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [IA] Counterspell
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [M12] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
This has been doing well so far, especially against G/W Maverick of course. U/W Control decks really profit from Avacyn Restored I guess. While you have a cheap sweeper now that isn't that vulnerable to Daze (compared to Wrath, Terminus is also fine against Delver and Thresh), Entreat the Angels solves the issue of the too ponderous Win Condition because it can turn the board situation significantally when you've reached a sufficient land count. I feel that we might want to choose an approach with Entreat the Angels as the main Win Condition because Planeswalkers have been doing bad lately, mainly because of all that Burn and flash creatures. Nevertheless, my concern is that the list above lacks a bit of card advantage. I used to run 3 Ancestral vision in place of 1 Pierce and 2 Counterspell but found that cutting CS isn't very helpful and snapcaster mage evolves its full potential with these 1 mana counters. Also Ancestral Vision isn't that impressive neither except you run Time Walk in conjunction but Time Walk seems to be rather bad because we simply can't capitalize on the additional attack phase.
If you guys can do it, why can't I?Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
I actually posted a deck list even though I never claimed to have played with the card. But nice try. :laugh:
Alright... you didn't really convince me that it was unfair. Mostly what I see is that it's a "good card". Why do you feel that Terminus is not unfair? I could at least understand the argument for the Time Walk not being that great in a control shell because we can't abuse it as well as say, a combo deck. Something like Sneak&Show would rather have the exra turn as opposed to UW Landstill. I'm not seeing it for Terminus since:Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
A- Casting it for W isn't hard.
B- "Kills" many things that swords can't for the same amount of mana.
C- Can be done on your opponents turn ala top.