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I just like having the full four copies of knight. Especially since they can get swords or flipped from dredging.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
I'll give your build a spin sometime! I like stone forge and a turn one mystic seems sweet
Right now I'm practicing for our big local eternal event in March.
Awesome.
If there isn't a lot of DRS, D&T or other decks you would want dismember against you can probably play a knight instead of that and add a Loam as a 61st card.
In the SB, I am currently playing:
- 2x Containment Priest
- 1x Ajani Vengeant
+3x Grafdigger's cage
The priests also do work against Sneak & Show but they are not needed for that matchup. A 1drop is much more potent against dredge/reanimator and mulliganing to a 3of is better than mulling to a 2of. I think just aggressively mulling to this gives the deck a decent chance. If they don't have the claim/force right away we have the time to play some actual magic. Oh and Ajani mostly went in against decks that were already good matchups, or decks that were really bad ones. Basically the card is low impact :/
- 1x Golgari Charm
- 2x Sudden Demise
- 1x Zealous Persecution
+ 2x Pyroclasm
+ 2x Toxic Deluge
I'm still not sure where I want to be with the board wipes. Demise and ZP were good against UR delver, but I think I want more powerful if less precise tools. It was important not to lose whatever creatures I had against UR, but now I think that matters less.
Tell me how the testing goes.
I played a Burning Wish list at my local yesterday. Wrecked Deathblade and Mono-Red Sneak Attack 2-0, but had real problems against Death & Taxes.
Game 1 on the play he had Aether Vial into Aether Vial Aether Vial. I had Burning Wish, Bob, and Chalice for turn 2 plays. I decided to go with Chalice just to shut off Plows, which was probably incorrect. I played Bob the next turn but by then he had a bunch of men including Thalia and was Porting me every turn. I drew an Abrupt Decay which I could cast through Thalia and was forced to go after his Flickerwisp, but he Flickered off a Vial in response. I died soon after. Not sure Burning Wish for Shattering Spree or Pulse earlier would have been better since I don't think I ever had mana to cast either spell and he would have already gotten value out of Vials anyway.
Game 2 I had turn 1 Chalice on the play and an Abrupt Decay for his Stoneforge. I felt pretty good but he went on some weird LD plan, Wasting my only Green land, Stone Raining my Mox Diamond with Council's Judgment, and Mangara-ing another one of my lands. He was attacking me this whole time and I just died with Green spells I couldn't cast in hand. Turn 1 Chalice on the play doesn't always get them lads.
The only thing I did with Burning Wish all night was get a Reverent Silence to blow up an exposed Sneak Attack. He showed me a hand full of Emrakuls after I won that game. Thanks Burning Wish! I drew Devastating Dreams twice, once I couldn't cast it, and the other time I had better things to do. Overall the other aspects of the deck functioned well as usual. Obviously this was a small sample, but I will definitely be back on Liliana for the foreseeable future.
IDK if 3 matches is enough testing to discount stuff, but Burning Wish is pretty slow and Dreams is kind of situational.
Chalices are horrible against D&T. They play 4 vials so the chalice has to come down before that. They play ~1 cavern so they can resolve a mom through a chalice. They only have 12 1drops so chalice at best is usually not that good. After all that they can flickerwisp the chalice in case everything has gone well for you so far.
The LD plan from D&T is also very legit. I board out 2 moxes because drawing them is just horrible and it is easy to turn them off with revoker or flickerwisp.
Did you have a massacre in the wishboard?
Haven't played a lot of this matchup, thanks for the tips. Do you think it is worth keeping Chalice in on the play and taking it out on the draw? Do you think Moxes vulnerability to Revoker/Flickerwisp outweighs the benefit of them being Waste/Port-proof?Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
I had Toxic Deluge instead of Massacre in my wishboard because I thought it was more versatile. Massacre would have been amazing there, but unfortunately he never actually had a Plains that game. If I had to play Burning Wish again I think I would play Massacre instead, I don't know how often the "Toxic Deluge your Progenitus for 10" and similar scenarios actually come up.
If we imagine that we are on the play with a chalice in our opening hand there are 2 scenarios. It is either a turn 1 or 2 chalice. If it is a turn 2 chalice and our opponent has a turn 1 play, the chalice is kind of too late imo. The T1 chalice is effective but still probably not great for the reasons I mentioned before.
I think 4 moxen is too much, and our deck functions worse with 0. The 2nd mox is often a blank. I think the mox hate is more powerful than the land hate. ports can be wasted and destroyed lands can be loamed back, but wisps and revokers are removal + threat.
Another downside of playing moxen and chalices is that we want to be drawing nothing but castable removal (and maybe threats) and the artifacts are very dead topdecks.
Burning wish in general is not great as everything costs 2 extra mana and that adds up through waste/port/thalia. I'd maybe board them out for all the removal/boardwipes you can fit.
I'm looking into playing 4C Loam this weekend, but I don't in quite a while.. What has been the consensus been in Qasali Pridemage vs the disenchant Elf? I love the mages Exalted ability, but having an etb skill in the elf counts a lot!
The choice is pretty straightforward.Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
If you're looking to play one of the two in the mainboard, the general consensus is that you should run Qasali Pridemage. It's cheaper and has a more relevant body, which makes it more useful in the event of them not having anything worthwhile enough to target.
If you're looking to put one of them in the sideboard, run Reclamation Sage. Its mana cost makes it better suited for taking out truly troubling targets like Blood Moon if you cast it, and not having to sacrifice the creature means instant value.
There's hardly ever a time when you should have to deviate from this easy selection method.
Cool! Thanks for the quick reply!
I'm going with a similar list to Dosferra, which is essentially the BOM9's but with the Depths combo. But I like having a singleton Tarmogoyf, so I'll have 61 cards. I remember when I was testing Pack Rat that I really missed having a regular 4/5 body to tutor for when I needed some quick defense/offense for 3 mana.
So probably changing Pridemage for the Elf on the board.
Out of curiosity, what did you remove to fit in the Dark Depths combo?Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
2 of the cycle lands, so I'm going with 1 Barren Moor and 1 Tranquil Thicket.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
That seems painful.Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
It sure loses some drawing shenanigans in exchange of an extra kill con. Would you prefer cutting something else?Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
I'm not a fan of Dark Depths at all in the slightest, but if I had to offer an opinion, "kind of".Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
I mean, if you had to pick a card that you could live without, the cycle lands are easily the first cards that come to mind. They're not a land that you actively try to make mana out of. They don't hurt your opponent. They don't bury your opponent. They don't do anything really extravagant or drastic. Not like mother fuckin' Chalice of the Void. Or mother fuckin' Knight of the Reliquary. And so on and so forth. But there's a reason, with regards to any deck, that you don't run 60 copies of Knight and call it done. You need the glue, and the cycle lands are that glue.
Given that turn ones usually result in a great twiddling of thumbs without Mox Diamond, if you feel like your opening hand is light on land, you can easily afford to play a tapped Barren Moor on turn one for value. On the flipside, if you feel like your opening hand is would be good if only it weren't nothing but land, you can go Bayou->Barren Moor for value. Then of course you have the cute interactions with Loam.
By sharp contrast, you can do none of that with Dark Depths or Thespian Stage. Nor could you do it with a Stoneforge Mystic, or any of the other flamboyantly fantastical finishers. You can't just straight up swap Tranquil Thicket for Dark Depths on a one-to-one basis just because they're both lands any more than you could swap an Island for Emrakul on a one-to-one basis because they're both colorless. Dark Depths is nothing except Mox food until you find Thespian Stage. And same goes for the reverse.
also, this is while distracted at work, so sorry if it's poorly formatted
To be fair Thespian's Stage does produce 1 mana, haha. And I totally agree with all your points, except that if Emrakul was as easy to get in play as much as Marit Lage, I'd exchange an island for it any day. You need an entire engine to run Emrakul, while Marit Lage is 2 of 61 cards that won't blow my game. It let's me fight in a third way of action, and will make people sweat just by the sight of either piece of the combo. If I can't combo I'm 98% the cycle land won't make a fundamental difference in the performance. I likely can still play Knight, Bob, Punishing Fire and Loam with no problem. And all of those cards even has uncoloured card costs, so those combo lands can still help me even if I don't find their other side of the orange.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Really? I thought it was an excellent comparison. If UWx Stoneblade decided to put one Show and Tell and one Emrakul into their mainboard, which deck would have a more difficult time making their combo work?Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
I didn't know uw stoneblade had that many ways to tutor either or both of emrakul/show and tell.
To be fair, neither does Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
There's no Crop Rotation. No Ancient Stirrings. Outside of untapping with Knight of the Reliquary (which is usually an already winning position) or excessively dredging with Loam (which is a bad plan), your only method of finding Depths and Stage is flipping off the top.
IDK man, I win about a third of my games with marit lage. I'm not trying to be cute or anything, there are legitimately plenty of cases where you just can't fight through some board state. It costs exactly one land (because stage is a fine card on its own and at least makes mana), and adds a new dimension to the deck.
Your Stoneblade Show and Tell comparison is way off. So much so I'm wondering if you have seen this deck operate with a Depths in it.
I've held opinions pretty similar to yours until I actually played with the card
Couple of notes:Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
1) Putting a copy of show and tell and emrakul into a stoneblade doesn't even come close in comparison to putting DD + Stage in a 4c loam deck.
2) By the statement you wrote above, you completely negate your argument for not cutting down to 2 cycle lands from 4 (in addition to horizon canopy).
I have played this deck with and without DD + Stage and there is zero downside to playing with DD + Stage. Many times I have been able to race Show and Tell Decks due to being able to have the ability to create a 20/20 indestructible flyer where I wouldn't have had the ability to with karakas alone.
By this logic I'd also have to run 4 copies of Karakas to stand a chance vs Emrakul/Grisebrand.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
@aluis: I should tell you, since my testing with pack rat, I decided to ditch him for a 1 of deathrite shaman and haven't looked back. DRS is so great in this deck. If you are dredging and you dredge away spells / creatures, you can remove them. You can still pump out a T2 liliana. Is great against GY based decks.
I value him over tarmogoyf right now, give him a shot and let me know what you think.
That doesn't sound bad, plus if I ever need him with chalice up I can get it with GSZ. Hmmm you have my attention!Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
Are you still running Pack Rat?
Nah, dropped him entirely. As great as he was, I really feel that if a creature isn't GSZable, then it needs to be a 4of ... and Pack Rat aint no Dark Confidant.
True that. I left the approach for the same reasons.
I’ve recently played a match against shardless BUG. My version of 4CLoam has cut a lot of the grindyest aspects of the deck to have better game against traditionally hard matchups like combo and very fast aggro, so I was expecting the matchup to possibly go very poorly for me.
The opponent was somewhat new to legacy so it is quite possible that there was a skill advantage.
I quickly realized that I could not match the opponent in card advantage until perhaps the late game (where loam can compete with jace/shardless). I Basically decided to tempo out my opponent with SFM and not give him time to breathe. Turns out Jitte is pretty good, I won game 1 with an equipped stirring wildwood.
I misboarded for game 2 by bringing in 2x thalla (thinking about the visions, jaces, lilis, brainstorms and deluges rather than the creatures that would have mattered had they stuck.) otherwise +1x Council’s judgement +1 choke. I cut 2 chalices because there are not many 1drops and many decays (so drawing extra chalices is no longer okay) a scooze, and a GSZ. He played a t1 DRS, and a turn 2 shards agent into goyf (IIRC). I made a mistake by not putting aggressive enough and scooped soon after.
I take out the thalias for a judgement and a GSZ and shuffle up. I GSZ for the arbor and pass. He starts with a visions and I debate playing my chalice on 0. Instead I play a SFM for jitte and attack with my tree. The plan is to play chalice right before the visions goes off to minimize the chance for decay, but if the decay is spent on the chalice I play and attack with a jitte next turn, meaning only goyf can stabilize from there. This line also hedges against the random agent into visions. I play the chalice and decays my SFM. The opponent plays a lili and edicts, I play a SFM. and here my memory is a bit hazy but I kill the lili, get in with SFM then fight through another lili and a DTT. somehow I land a knight to the opponent’s DRS 6/7 Goyf, and nihil spellbomb next turn I equip the batterskull attack with the 10/10 knight (opponent is at 6). The opponent pops spellbomb and double blocks. I fetch a fetch with knight, use the fetch, and the use my wasteland to bring the knight back to a 10/10. With a clear board the opponent digs through time(maybe this happened earlier) and lands a strix for his turn. I keep the knight on defense and plan to make a marit lage. Opponent plays a DRS and is forced to block lage, and knight, and take 3 from wildwood. He draws his next card and concedes.
So the 3 games are not enough to say all that much but so far the aggro/tempo gameplan seems okay and the sideboard doesn’t really do much in the matchup.
I haven't seen any decklists in a while is Liliana of The Veil a staple in this deck? What does a current list even look like? Thanks in advance
The aggro loam formula got a new vertent in last year's bazar of moxen with a 4 color composition, you check it out in here http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/ba...vent,c147.html
Most 4C loam are based of this one nowadays, though a few forum users still run a jund colors woth dev dreams and burning wish.
Has anyone tried Tasigur in this deck?
We definitely have the graveyard shenanigans, downsides I see are he can't be GSZ'd and flipping him to Bob would be a bit painful.
He might be redundant though since he's never bigger than Tarmogoyf (who doesn't have the above downsides) and Loam already kind of does the same thing as his activated ability.
Went to a 28 tournament today, here goes the report
List:
2x Barren Moor
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Depths
2x Scrubland
2x Taiga
2x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
4x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
2x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Life from the Loam
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Sylvan Library
1x Vindicate
1x Skeletal Scrying
Sideboard (13)
2x Choke
3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Golgari Charm
1x Devastating Dreams
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1st Match Omnitell:
1st game: I keep with a Mox, 3 land, gaddock teeg, punishing and loam. He turns 1 island into preordain so I dropped teeg. He turn 3 show&tell into omniescience and emrakul from hand.
-3 punishing fire -2 decay -2 loam +3 canonist +1 gaddock teeg +1 sage +2 choke(completely forgot to bring Golgari charm)
2nd game: he is full of permission but too many FoWs dry his hand and I beat with a confidant and a teeg for the win.
3rd game: see 1st!!!
Record: 0-1(1-2)
2nd Match Dark Maverick:
1st game: I clear the board with punishing fires unitl he wastes my Grove and floods the board.
-1 gaddock teeg -1 Confidant +1 Devastating Dreams +1 thrun
2nd game: Punishing + confidant + chalice + knight do the job, he scoops turn 5.
3rd game: I control the board with 2 knights, shaman, chalice and some removal, He finally stabilizes and I finish with shaman on turns.
Record: 1-1(3-3)
3rd Match Bant:
1st game: I go for chalice and he goes for a quick Nemesis+Jitte.
-1 gaddock teeg -1 Confidant -2 loam -1 karakas +1 thrun +2 choke +2 golgari charm(I probably missed sideboard since I saw KotR on 2nd game)
2nd game: I go land pass and he zeniths for arbor, I wasteland him 3 turns in a row on blue duals. He then keeps dropping SFM and I keep removing them. He lands a SoFaF and I a sylvan library. he goes for a knight equip and I forgot about the protection from the sword and can only decay the sword afterwords. Knight runs me down.
Record: 1-2(3-5)
4th Match Pox Reanimate?:
1st game: I go for chalice and 2 knights, he coops after a liliana sac dryad.(I saw a discarded elspeth, dark ritual and liliana)
-1 gaddock teeg -2 Decay -2 PFire +4 Leyline of the veil +1 canonist
2nd game: Dropped Leyline, Chalice, Sylvan and waste a Urborg. He scoops
Record: 2-2(5-5)
5th Match Omnitell:
There were 5 omnitell in the tournament.....
1st game: I go for a quick teeg, he misplays and echoing truth the teeg before show and tell. He tries to find a emrakul or 2nd cunning wish but misses with 2 digs in hand.
-3 punishing fire -2 decay -2 loam -1 grove -1? +3 canonist +1 gaddock teeg +1 sage +2 choke +2 Golgari charm
2nd game: I go for Confidant and he turn 4 S&T into Omni and I into canonist. He Echoing truth my canonist in my turn and I respond with Charm on Omni. I then close the game.
Record: 3-2(7-5)
10th place tied with 8th
Overall thoughts:
I would probably change the following cards in the list.
-1 Stage
-1 Depths
-1 Vindicate
+1 Nantuko Monastery
+2 Liliana of the Veil
SB:
-1 Devastating Dreams
+1 Krosan Grip/Cataclysm/Vindicate
I can't say nothing about Skeletal Scrying since I didn't saw him all day.
The Stage+Depths combo seems too much win more. The only matches I missed them is against elves and merfolk.
Devastating Dreams seems unnecessary and a dream that never come true. In the matches it does, we are already well positioned.
I am not happy in shaving a Vindicate but I missed a couple lilianas sometimes. Maybe I will try shaving 1 confidant for it.
Dark confidants are ridiculous and the shaman performed very well. I also really loved the canonist on the sideboard
Any feedback is well appreciated.
It seems like it is time for some tournament reports here.
I also played a tournament yesterday, 25-30 players, 5 rounds
@Pilhas: sorry for copy+paste ;)
List:
2x Barren Moor
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Depths
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Savannah
2x Tranquil Thicket
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths
3x Wasteland
3x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
2x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Life from the Loam
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
1x Sylvan Library
3x Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Golgari Charm
2x Slaughter Games
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Ancient Grudge
1st Match Manaless Dredge:
1st game: My hand was not bad, but without GSZ, Deathrite, Ooze or Knight. Of course this was not enough to beat Dredge -> Loss
2nd game: Turn 0 Leyline of the Void -> Win
3rd game: Turn 0 double Leyline of the Void -> Win
Record: 1-0(2-1)
2nd Match Deathblade:
1st game: I was able to deal with his threats (Deathrite Shaman and Stoneforge Mystic) and lost soon after that to a Jace on an empty board -> Loss
2nd game: I had two Dark Confidants. He didn't have a removal -> Win
3rd game: Long grind. Two Lilianas handled two True Name Nemisis. A third True Name Nemisis and a Thrun raced each other. Thanks to Fetchlands, Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam I found a Golgari Charm on one life -> Win
Record: 2-0(4-2)
3rd Match TES:
1st game: He duressed my Chalice, I land a turn two Gaddock Teeg, but the Gaddock Teeg was a bit too slow. Burning Wish for Pyroclasm -> Loss
2nd game: Turn one Leyline, Chalice on 0. Turn three Gaddock Teeg -> Win
3rd game: Turn one Chalice 0, Turn two Ethersworn Canonist, Turn three Knight, attack for lethal on turn five. He had a Duress for a second Chalice and Decay for my Canonist, but not enough business left to combo off -> Win
Record: 3-0(6-3)
4th Match SneakShow:
1st game: He goes for Show and Tell - Emrakul, I drop Knight of the Reliquary -> Win
2nd game: Show and Tell - Griselbrand, I drop Oblivion Ring, he draws seven cards. Echoing Truth on Oblivion Ring and Force of Will for it wins him the game -> Loss
3rd game: Show and Tell - Griselbrand, I drop Oblivion Ring, he draws 14 cards -> Loss
Record: 3-1(7-5)
5th Match Grixis (Delver, Deathrite, Young Pyromancer and a reanimate package (Entomb, Reanimate, Elesh Norn, Grave Titan))
1st game: Turn two Chalice nearly wins the game on its own. Knight and Marit for the win -> Win
2nd game: Turn 0 Leyline of the Void. Long grind. Knight and Marit for the win -> Win
Record: 4-1(9-5)
4th place
Some of you guys really felt in love with Marit Lage. So I decided to give it a spin over the last two weeks. Maze of Ith was great in this deck and so is Marit Lage. I changed the manabase a bit and it worked well. Right now I will continue playing with Marit Lage.
Feedback for Pilhas:
In your first round you just forgot to sideboard five cards. Probably one of the reasons why you lost. Your sideboarding in Round five was way better ;)
Skeletal Scrying, Vindicate and Devasting Dreams are just too cute. You do not need them.
So overall I do think, that you need to make a few small changes on your list and just practice more. 3-2 is not bad. Keep going ;)
Pretty great you guys!
I see schniggaz also did the deathrite approach! How'd you like it?
I went to a weekly thing with 11 players only, but still fun times. 4 rounds swiss, top 4 to win a playmat.
Went with a list with Deathrite, Marit Lage combo.
I don't play the deck in like 4 months or so being the last time I played magic was in december with Punishing Jund, so I made a few mistakes.
At the same time I only had 2 truly noteworthy matches, which were my losses. So here's on with the report.
Round 1: Food Chain Combo - I had never played this match before, let alone with 4C. Loam. It was piloted by The Source member maurobad.
G1: I play chalice for one and he never plays anything, except for lands and a decay for my Knight - I assume he can't play more due to the chalice. I have Bob kicking the clock. The first time he drops a Food Chain I decay it, and keep on land destroying plan with Loam. He manages to Dig Through Time and builds up his hand, and one turn before I hit the 20 hit points he combos food chain with the Misthollow Griffin into Emrakul.
I change most of my board into the deck, including the Leylines, thinking it could help me with Dig Through Time. But I side out pretty badly, like lilianas and punishing fire, as he never played anything game 1, just to combo at once, I thought those wouldn't be needed. Big mistake.
G2: he plays a spell which he removes three cards from the game (griffons) and I get to land Slaughter Games for Food Chain. However I miss the point that once he has enough lands to play the griffons, he will have 3 flying creatures. That's what happened. The more you know! Loss.
PS: I remember that playing Deathrite Shaman in this match was good. Game me some acceleration and I think that in g2 it got Decayed, so I guess it leaves room for other creature to breath, even though I lost anyway in the end hehe!
Round 2: Goblin Burn rogue.
G1 and G2: Dude had a barebones deck filled with goblins with sacrifice abilities, which all went well along with Loam's removals. He was indeed able to kill a knight at a time, but that was his big accomplishment that round. Shameless win.
Round 3: Mono Black Combo.
G1 and G2: Chalice for 1 pretty much wins both games. I finish one of the matches with regular bob beatdown and the second one with marit lage.
Round 4: Yet another Mono Black Combo.
G1: This time however I get a little scared at first, as his turn 1 play was Tabernacle, and I think he's on lands maybe. i go with Mox and Bob turn 1, and he plays a swamp, which somewhat makes me even more scared if it was a Jund Depths list, one that I really want to play at a point and admire the strategy. Turns out that after that I resolve yet another Chalice for 1 (best card ever on this deck) and he scoops.
G2: He manages to not let much enter play with some well hit hymn to tourachs, but I manage to get one Bob in play. he gets a Tabernacle to tax me. With Bob I manage to buy 2 GSZ and a Dark Depths. I GSZ to Knight. I get sloppy and forget to pay his tax the turn he's online, so I spend the second GSZ for it, and pay the tax, and play Dark Depths. EOT I finish the marit lage combo and win.
At this point the swiss was over and I got 4th, with omnitell and the aforementioned Food chain in the first two places. They didn't want the playmat so me and the 3rd place went to the final game
Top 4: UWR Blade.
G1: I don't quite remember the hand but it was a nice one: two chalices, some lands, mox, p.fire and ooze. He starts with a land, I go mox, chalice for 1, and it gets spell pierced. Since he countered it I figure he wouldn't like the card in play, so in turn 2 I go the same route, and it lands. I play ooze, which is great as he cant bolt or sword it. However he does worse and gets TNN on. We start hitting each other up, while I dig deep with loam. At a time I get ooze to feed from creatures in the GY, he stops attacking. And we keep on that, him drawing and me on dredging, trying to find the combo. Maybe I should keep on drawing, but with Loam, it feels dredging is like advancing 3 turns in one.. I wonder if you have an opinion on this. Turns out this one turn he attacks with TNN and I say "Oh man, you've drawn another one" "yup" He plays a second TNN and I don't need to tell where this went.
G2: I think I picked my hand wrong. It looked good but no real power. I think it was: Lands, Mox, Chains of Meth, Ooze, Golgari Charm, maybe something else but I can't remember. I start with Mox, Chains of Mephistopheles. It lands. He goes stoneforge mystic into Batterskull and this is all I have to tell you. I never bought a way out and got my ass kicked. 3-2
Notes to self:
-Mulligan more
-Think the approach Draw vs Dredge
-DRS can stay, a great GSZ for 2 manas, and can either fix or speed up the game. There wasn't anytime I couldn't play him because of Chalice, though I'm sure this will happen sometime after more experimentation.
-More practice.
I wish the meta had more grindy matches though, I only got the 5th round which really tested me, though you can hardly call 11 players a meta hah. Apparently there was 2 Reanimators, 1 Omnitell, 1 Food Chain, 2 Pox, 2 Uwr Blade, this goblin rogue, me and my brother with a Zoo.
When you dredge with loam you are seeing 3 times the cards, but you are digging to ~ exactly stage + depths. As an alternative you can be drawing only one cards but have stuff like Knight and GSZ (at least 6 cards) as outs. Cycle lands change this math but on the onset it seems like you lose a lot by just dredging.
I agree! I think that since the game was stalled for a while I maybe believed it was just a matter of time (I think I might have had one piece of the combo in my hand by then not sure, might be in other match that afternoon), but in reality if I just kept on drawing i could also come across a Liliana, which might also have solved the tnn problem. Sigh.
Tournament report
List:
1x Bayou
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Plateau
2x Savannah
2x Scrubland
1x Secluded Steppe
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Taiga
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Tranquil Thicket
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Batterskull
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
3x Punishing Fire
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
2x Sylvan Library
Sideboard (15)
2x Pyroclasm
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Containment Priest
2x Council's Judgment
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Choke
1x Slaughter Games
Round 1: UR delver
G1: The guy leads with island delver. I resolve a chalice. Then a knight, then a Lage.
G2: Turn 1 delver off of a volc. I think about wasting it because he mulled to 5, but figure I don’t need to “get“ him in order to win with my 7. fetch->forest-> GSZ. I cast a chalice, it gets forced. I waste him back down to 1 land and pass. I resolve a chalice and a pfire on the delver, my opponent plays a blood moon. I attack with dryad arbor. Another Blood moon. I play a choke and eventually a batterskull.
Record: 1-0 (2-0)
Round 2: Infect
G1: I know the guy was on infect last time, but mentioned he usually plays D&T. I keep something like Arbor, Grove, wildwood, loam, 2x chalice, library. I figure if he is on D&T I’m losing the game anyway, and this hand is okay against infect. Opponent mulls to 5. I resolve one of the chalices and when my opponent confirms I know how it works he scoops.
G2: I point a dismember at his T1 glisstener elf and get it dazed. I chalice (?). I clasm on turn 3 to play around daze (rather than deluge) and trade with a hierarch and a pump spell on the elf. Become Immense kills me.
G3: This game is a bit slow. I get a t2 chalice dazed and a stoneforged jitte gets gripped. My opponent cycles 2 of his 3 brainstorms in search for a threat. When it arrives I have just a pfire for his nexus and it gets pumped for lethal in response (there were two hierarchs on board)
Record: 1-1 (3-2)
Round 3: Loam Pox
So this is the kind of grindy matchup that I shaved points from to make my deck better against traditionally bad matchups.
G1: I play a T2 Chalice on the play. Opponent responds with entomb for loam. I have a t3 knight that dies to a t3 lili. I’m unable to recover and quickly lose.
G2: This was a grindfest. I deal with a couple of lilis, pressure his life total pretty low while he gets value from loam. The ground is clogged with infinite mishra's factories. I find my own loam and refill my hand. He finds a bojuka bog. I find a GSZ for scooze and eat his loams and Worm Harvest. He poxes away my scooze. Turn 5 of extra turns (I think), I finally find my grove of the burnwillows with him at 1 life and kill him with the pfire in the grave.
Record: 1-1-1 (4-3-1)
Round 4: Brewy Enchantress
G1: I lead with land go. He starts with savannah, exploration, trop, GSZ for 0. I land a chalice and my opponent plays an enchantress and has something like 3 wastelands which with the exploration basically give him 3 time walks
G2: We have a mana fight. I have a loam. I land a chalice and beat him to death with a knight.
G3: I play a pridemage and a knight and basically tempo him out with wastelands and removal
Record: 2-1-1 (6-4-1)
I played in a 30 person tournament on Sunday for some duals and foil fetches.
I ran really cold but also made some mistakes, not what I would consider that cost me the game, but mistakes nonetheless.
Here is a brief tournament report:
Round 1 - Young Frankenstein (I think that's what its called)
Game 1 - I see young pyro, entomb, reanimate, elesh norn, etc. Colors are BWR. I end up losing because the 7 I kept was slightly shakey but was revolving around Liliana, too bad she just fueled his game plan and isn't great against tokens.
Game 2 - This goes a lot differently with a 9/9 knight 2x dark confidants, leyline of the void opening hand, and engineered plague on elemental tokens.
Game 3 - Mull to 5, not to find a leyline, but to find a hand that isn't all lands or all spells. 5 I keep did have a leyline though so goody! I draw zero gas the whole game and lose to a swarm of 1/1s.
0-1
Round 2 - MUD Post
Now, I'm aware this isn't the best matchup for the deck, however my opponent had explosive draws game 1 and game 2.
Game 1 - Opponent Turn 4 Sundering Titaned my 3 mana producing lands when I had Dark Depths in hand and I had sacked 1 to get Thespian Stage in play with knight. I had a mox in play, didn't find another land the rest of the match until he blightsteeled me.
Game 2 - My turn 1 was make dark confidant, his was drop metalworker. My turn 2 was play KoTR, his was play Ugin. Game was basically over after that.
0-2
I wasn't disappointed in anyway with the deck, just merely the fact that I had unfortunate draws (which does happen) which cost me a couple of games. A mistake I feel I made was against R1 opponent in game 3. I should have kept my hand of 6, which hand a GSZ and 5 lands. I feel like that would have been better for me than going down to 5. Against MUD game 1, there really wasn't much I could do, I had a hand which was a good opener against a random opponent, but Sundering Titan packed me in. Game 2, not much that could really be done.
i feel MUD is a complicated match because Chalice is one of their own weapons, and as you said it, Sundering Titan obliterates us. I wonder what's the best approach.
Also on Young Frankenstein/Pyromancer decks, while I didn't fight any of those this weekend, I did include Toxic Deluge in the sideboard. I think it might help us deal with tokens alongside Golgari Charm. It's also a weapon to be used vs MUD, and mind you, according to Nihil Credo's DTB post, there's quite a rise in the MUD presence as of recently. UGIN is being great to Mud.
Yeah, I had 2 golgari charms and 1 engineered plague which took the place of my 3 lilianas. I also sided out the COTV for 4 leylines against Young Frankenstein. It was just a matter of drawing any card that would have helped game 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
As far as MUD Post goes I feel the matchup isn't bad for the following reasons:
-We have wasteland lock, this potentially RUINS their whole game plan;
-Gaddock Teeg shuts down anything CMC 4 or greater that isn't a creature;
-Shut down early metalworkers and they shouldn't be able to drop an early bomb
-a 20/20 indestructible flyer > their creatures outside of blightsteel
Game 1 its really hard to be on those plans, but G2 and G3 should be much easier.
What was the board like when this happened? From just an at-a-glance perspective, it looks like there were quite a few lines of play that would have gotten you out of that mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
3-0'd my local last night with typical Punishing Junk list. Matchups were Reanimator, RUG Lands, and Death & Taxes. Props to apocolyps6 for his tips on the D&T matchup, I think they came in handy.
Round 1: Reanimator (2-1)
Game 1 I had Chalice on 1 but he had a Hapless Researcher under it and eventually pitched and Exhumed Elesh Norn.
-3 Punishing Fire, -1 Loam, -1 G. Teeg, -1 Liliana, -1 Abrupt Decay
+4 Leyline, +2 Canonist, +1 Deluge
Kept Decays around in case Pithing Needle showed up. Brought in Canonist for Tidespout Tyrant and Deluge as a random panic button. I stole
games 2 and 3 on double mulligans to Leyline. He had Echoing Truth in his deck so it wasn't a hard lock, but I got there.
Round 2: RUG Lands (2-1)
Game 1 I got killed by a fast Marit Lage.
-3 Punishing Fire, -1 Liliana, -1 G. Teeg
+4 Leyline, +1 Rec. Sage
Game 2 was a grind-fest and I eventually prevailed with unkillable Knights. When Game 3 started I realized I should have boarded out Chalice but forgot to. I probably should have also taken out a 2nd Liliana for Krosan Grip. Game 3 was another grindfest, got there in extra turns with giant Knights again. I don't have much experience against Lands so I think I made a few sub-optimal plays.
Round 3: Death & Taxes (2-1)
Game 1 he had a great start on the play and I fell victim to typical D&T shenanigans.
-4 Chalice, -2 Mox Diamond, -1 G. Teeg,
+2 Golgari Charm, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Rec. Sage, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Thrun
I inadvertently brought in Thrun even though he's poor in this matchup. In future I think I'd rather have a singleton Chalice. Game 2 he was light on action and I got to Punishing Fire lock + Loam lock. Game 3 he conceded to a 3-for-1 from Golgari Charm while on 1 land.