Miracle Control

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drocker23

so can we finalize a couple of lists here that we can all agree are the best versions of each list? RIP/Helm, Stoneblade Miracles, and Legendary Miracles including sideboards?

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For the RIP/Helm I selflessly suggest using my GP list :(http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post719102)
,though with some minor sideboardchanges.
So, basically this one:



4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Detention Sphere
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Vendilion Clique
//Sideboard
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Pyroclasm
1 Batterskull
2 Humility
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Flusterstorm
1 Counterbalance


Greetings

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

For the RIP/Helm I selflessly suggest using my GP list :(http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post719102)
,though with some minor sideboardchanges.
So, basically this one:



4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Detention Sphere
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Vendilion Clique
//Sideboard
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Pyroclasm
1 Batterskull
2 Humility
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Flusterstorm
1 Counterbalance


Greetings

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Hi,
i saw your altered cards from your link. I have a question with of your alterated cards because i have a lot of altered cards too in my decks...
Do you had problems with your altered BS, Tops, Forces because of the head judge?? Because i went to him with my Altered Maverick and he didn´t gave his ok to my Umezawas Jitte! His explanation was that it has not the original background colors. But your BS and Force´s are also without the original backpicture??
All cards where I only extended the borders with the colour of the original pictures he had no problems...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

Hi,
i saw your altered cards from your link. I have a question with of your alterated cards because i have a lot of altered cards too in my decks...
Do you had problems with your altered BS, Tops, Forces because of the head judge?? Because i went to him with my Altered Maverick and he didn´t gave his ok to my Umezawas Jitte! His explanation was that it has not the original background colors. But your BS and Force´s are also without the original backpicture??
All cards where I only extended the borders with the colour of the original pictures he had no problems...

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I've had no problems with those alterations at both, GP Strasbourg and Ovino7.

Greetings

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce

sure, but once you set up the rip -> helm, its instant win instead of draw 3.

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This. Card advantage is irrevelent if you could just win. Not just just rip/helm applies here. Count the number of games you won with a resolved Entreat while you opponent had a shit ton of cards. Thats the main problem with aggro control shells they have the best attrition game but they do not have the speed of pure aggro nor the power cards of a true control deck. They will not always have the right answer to your bomb which is how we can win. Again I am not saying it is easy but the match is closer than most think in my opinion. Its like David Price said there is always a right threat but not always a right a swer. That philosophy applies to us in this matchup even though we sre not a beatdown deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

I've had no problems with those alterations at both, GP Strasbourg and Ovino7.

Greetings

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Did you went to the head judge before the tournament started?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

Actually, I think the main upside of Wurmcoil vs. Baneslayer is being able to find it with E. Tutor. Finding Baneslayer, as a 1-off, in a reasonable time frame can be quite difficult.

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I actually think Wurmcoil has a lot of upside compared to Baneslayer against decks that are packing stuff like Liliana. I don't think Wurmcoil is better than Elspeth though, and finding an Entreat with 6 mana likely means you win. I would (and do) board an extra Entreat and an Elspeth before I'd consider Wurmcoil.

I like Leyline, I just don't like cutting other spots for it. For a big tournament though, I'll probably have to find room. You'll likely hit at least a couple GBx decks throughout the day and can expect them in the top 8.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jayman

This. Card advantage is irrevelent if you could just win. Not just just rip/helm applies here. Count the number of games you won with a resolved Entreat while you opponent had a shit ton of cards. Thats the main problem with aggro control shells they have the best attrition game but they do not have the speed of pure aggro nor the power cards of a true control deck. They will not always have the right answer to your bomb which is how we can win. Again I am not saying it is easy but the match is closer than most think in my opinion. Its like David Price said there is always a right threat but not always a right a swer. That philosophy applies to us in this matchup even though we sre not a beatdown deck.

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I agree here. I think that a lot of people are misattributing our role against GBx. We can't just react to every threat of theirs and rely on attrition. We have to force them to deal with our more powerful and bomby threats (which they usually can't). It's still a difficult matchup, but it is much more difficult if you aren't playing the right game.

That Rip-Helm splashing Green list was pretty horrendous, since it doesn't even run StP and Miracle cards. However, the idea of splashing Green for Sterling Grove is not. I believe it deserves some testings.


1. Grove can be extra tutors for any Enchantment silver bullets you need.
2. If your opponent AD your Rest in Peace in response to you casting Grove, you can break Grove to get another RiP. Same can be applied to EE.
3. When Terminus/StP/Helm cannot be found, you have Grove in play, facing down beaters (beaters might include G Teeg), you can break Grove for Energy Field to give yourself more turns.

Sterling Grove isn't the worst, but I don't know where you'd make room. You'd want to cut Enlightened Tutor for it because they are so similar, except that Grove can't find Helm (or Top)... which is a big problem. I suppose you could cut the flash creatures and maybe another random thing or two. Even still... is it better than the Red splash? Probably not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

Did you went to the head judge before the tournament started?

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Yes, ofc, though at GP Strasbourg some highlevel-Judge was talking to me about the cards, he said he found the alterations beautiful and assured me, that they are allowed - I think it really depends on who you talk to :D

Greetings

Definitely. At BoM a friend of mine had to exchange his altered FoWs for real ones because the judge didn't like the atomic bombs blowing up in the picture.. ;)

Another player was DQ'ed because judges thought was using his obscure alterations to his advantage.

sorry if I keep posting here trying to detour a little from standard Miracle Control, but..

here is a optional winning condition that came to my mind that is another possibility (a surprise EOT win often), alternative to RiP Helm

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...taff-Polymorph

may be you want to read it...

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Originally Posted by Poron

sorry if I keep posting here trying to detour a little from standard Miracle Control, but..

here is a optional winning condition that came to my mind that is another possibility (a surprise EOT win often), alternative to RiP Helm

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...taff-Polymorph

may be you want to read it...

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i had a guy do this to me once in old extended. he played a couple of mutavaults, 2 polymorphs and 1 Iona. he ended up in 1st place going into top 8 with his only loss of the day to me, playing the exact same deck minues the mutavaults/polymorphs/iona. he was a very skilled player and i loved how he was able to take monotonous cards out to throw in a very sweet combo that didn't require hardly any effort. but in the end whether or not he boarded it out, he never went off game 1 or game 2 against me. and i beat him by tutoring up my thopter foundry/sword of the meek and using it better than he could with my*tezzeret, the seeker. back then, there was lightning bolt and path to exile to worry about. however, now, and in legacy, there are simply too many ways to stop this sort of combo even if it only takes up a couple of slots. but even then, those couple of slots are way more important in legacy than they were in the old extended days. yes, thopter foundry was also a great way for him to have another way to make guys for polymorph, i still wouldn't recommend a combo like polymorph. it's really just a worse version of show n' tell. although i would rather sit across from polymorph decks all day long rather than play against show n' tell ever again. point is, polymorph is nothing other than a cute idea that may only win you a handful of games. i'd rather take my chances playing better magic than the other guy.

anyone who has ever met me knows that i have an incredible distaste for that card in legacy. and even in recent weeks and the way the format has been lately, it turns out that Sneak Attack is really the more broken of the two cards dependant upon how much red mana they have in play. i hate sneak n' show. omnitell is a joke. but even though i know they never will.......i would love nothing more than to see either one or both cards, Show n' Tell/Sneak Attack banned out of legacy.

that is just my personal opinion. i mean it respectfully to anyone who disagrees or actively plays this deck.

I need some help with coming up with a sideboard plan for my current build. I am looking to beat Jund, BUG, and combo of all sorts.

Main: 60
2. Enlightened Tutor
1. Blood Moon
3. Force of Will
3. Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2. Entreat the Angels
1. Elspeth, Knight Errent
1. Moat
2. Rest in Peace
1. Energy Field
1. Helm of Obedience
4. Sensei's Divining Top
3. Swords to Plowshares
2. Spell Pierce
1. Counterspell
1. Vendilion Clique
3. Counterbalance
3. Terminus
3. Tundra
2. Volcanic Island
1. Mystic Gate
1. Karakas
4. Flooded Strand
3. Scalding Tarn
2. Arid Mesa
2. Plains
4. Island

I think the main is pretty tight and has game against almost anything game 1. These are the cards I am considering for the side but cannot figure which ones to omit or how many of a certain card I want.

Misdirection (good against discard strategies)
Rest in Peace (the third one to make sure I see it against graveyard strats)
Sulfur Elemental ( just great vs stoneblase)
Ethersworn Connonist( this and counterbalance destry combo)
Pithing Needle( planeswalker hate and random other stuff)
Meddling Maga (body that also makes the counterbalance curve better and its good to shut off adrupt decay since bg decks usually has it as there only form of removal)
Humility( show and Tell)
Venser, Shaper Savant( show and tell, and Karakas tricks vs fair decks)
Cestial Purge (Kill lili, dark confidant, deathriteand other stuff. I do not know if its strong enough)
Blue blasts( to fight opposing blasts and counter sneak attack)
Red Blasts( win jace wars)
Supreme Verdict( great against aggresive blue decks)
Force of Will

As you all can see I want a lot but must settle on 15 that will do well in a pretty open field but I would like more emphasis on beating bg decks. Thank you in advance.

I feel like Moat and Energy Field are a little redundant maindeck together. Not entirely... but you might be able to use that slot to put the 3rd RiP MD. I'd definitely include REB, Celestial Purge, Humility, and Venser. If you're worried about Sneak Attack, Pithing Needle is particularly great. Another Entreat isn't bad to have for the GBx MUs.

What do people think about shaving Forces and Swords? Shaving FoW has always seemed cute to me. Shaving Swords seems like it could be cute also, but with Terminus, we might be able to get away with it.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I feel like Moat and Energy Field are a little redundant maindeck together. Not entirely... but you might be able to use that slot to put the 3rd RiP MD. I'd definitely include REB, Celestial Purge, Humility, and Venser. If you're worried about Sneak Attack, Pithing Needle is particularly great. Another Entreat isn't bad to have for the GBx MUs.

What do people think about shaving Forces and Swords? Shaving FoW has always seemed cute to me. Shaving Swords seems like it could be cute also, but with Terminus, we might be able to get away with it.

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Maybe. I have 3 FoW in my md with the 4th in the board. In my opinion its never completely lost me a game. Shaving Swords is a terrible idea though, I run 3 terminii md and one in the sb, although I am currently testing for a new blend of board wipes, featuring Supreme Verdict, Probably md dropping terminii to 2, 1 sb. In all of my testing I can honestly say that I have never considered dropping an StP because they aren't card disadvantage ever (whereas terminus is dead in hand and StP can be used as a healing salve via your own clique, or exile a goyf without giving them any life via RIP. Also card disadvantage to use Terminus as an instant via losing top's board presence or a valuable Brainstorm. thats just my 0.02.

-ABC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I feel like Moat and Energy Field are a little redundant maindeck together. Not entirely... but you might be able to use that slot to put the 3rd RiP MD. I'd definitely include REB, Celestial Purge, Humility, and Venser. If you're worried about Sneak Attack, Pithing Needle is particularly great. Another Entreat isn't bad to have for the GBx MUs.

What do people think about shaving Forces and Swords? Shaving FoW has always seemed cute to me. Shaving Swords seems like it could be cute also, but with Terminus, we might be able to get away with it.

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I was thinking the same thing about the moat and energy field. The thing is they are good in different matchups but I really think I should move the energy field to the side for burn and tribal matchups. As for shaving swords and Force I believe its a pretty bad idea. Its better to remove terminus. In my opinion every build needs 3 of each swords and force in the 75.

what abou 2 Tropical Island + 2 Sterling Grove in SB?

-2 Volcanic
-2 something

in the Jund matchup

That plan is too narrow. Serling grove just does not effect enough matchups.

Any discussion on the 20 Land Miracles with 3 Entreat 0 Terminus Main Ala Carston Build? I used to play miracle but ended up not liking it (Pre abrupt decay tho). Thought this iteration is interesting/easy enough to play. Was thinking of building it.

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Originally Posted by spellpierce

Any discussion on the 20 Land Miracles with 3 Entreat 0 Terminus Main Ala Carston Build? I used to play miracle but ended up not liking it (Pre abrupt decay tho). Thought this iteration is interesting/easy enough to play. Was thinking of building it.

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Sure, not bad to play 3 EtA; good synergies because of no board wipes (none?). However, I think it's just plain ignorant to dismiss them from the maindeck altogether, when full sets of SDT and Brainstorm are in the main, most often only a single Clique, albeit potentially reusable with Karakas and blocking shenanigans. I think Two is the right number to be considered the lowest this should go in this deck, even if you happen to be the guy that plays Personal Tutor. Not a bad idea altogether other than being sorcery speed card disadvantage. Hell, I would rather put in 2 Crucible of Worlds so I can reuse my fetches to reset the top 3 cards and thin deck out. Then run some number of factories/Inkmoth Nexii (I recommend Nexii because their flying gets around Humility and works in tandem with Moat) for good measure.

Any takers?

-ABC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jayman

I need some help with coming up with a sideboard plan for my current build. I am looking to beat Jund, BUG, and combo of all sorts.

Main: 60
2. Enlightened Tutor
1. Blood Moon
3. Force of Will
3. Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2. Entreat the Angels
1. Elspeth, Knight Errent
1. Moat
2. Rest in Peace
1. Energy Field
1. Helm of Obedience
4. Sensei's Divining Top
3. Swords to Plowshares
2. Spell Pierce
1. Counterspell
1. Vendilion Clique
3. Counterbalance
3. Terminus
3. Tundra
2. Volcanic Island
1. Mystic Gate
1. Karakas
4. Flooded Strand
3. Scalding Tarn
2. Arid Mesa
2. Plains
4. Island

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Actually this list makes little sense to me. If you have E tutor in hand:
1. No Top, No RiP, No Helm:
tutor Top
2. Has Top, No RiP, No Helm:
tutor RiP
3. Has Top, Has RiP, No Helm:
tutor Helm.

How often do you actually tutor for EF? You want to beat Jund/BUG, when they most often target RiP, what good is EF? It's the too clunky argument all over again.

Moat is too narrow.
Emrakul/Grieselbrand laughs at it.
Lingering Soul Spirit tokens with Jitte laugh at it.
DRS, very popular right now, doesn't even care.
Humility covers much more match-ups and has become the go-to choice in many people's list.

You say you want to beat combos, and I don't see FoW in your Main Deck list, I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

You say you want to beat combos, and I don't see FoW in your Main Deck list, I don't get it.

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There are 3 forces md in his list, you just missed them.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

There are 3 forces md in his list, you just missed them.

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The golden posts are a pleasure to my tired soul, let him go on.

I have been following this thread for a while. Although I disagree with twndom's posts a lot of the time, I feel that his previous post contained merit.

He may be rude/obnoxious at times but that does not mean his points are invalid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Actually this list makes little sense to me. If you have E tutor in hand:
1. No Top, No RiP, No Helm:
tutor Top
2. Has Top, No RiP, No Helm:
tutor RiP
3. Has Top, Has RiP, No Helm:
tutor Helm.

How often do you actually tutor for EF? You want to beat Jund/BUG, when they most often target RiP, what good is EF? It's the too clunky argument all over again.

Moat is too narrow.
Emrakul/Grieselbrand laughs at it.
Lingering Soul Spirit tokens with Jitte laugh at it.
DRS, very popular right now, doesn't even care.
Humility covers much more match-ups and has become the go-to choice in many people's list.

You say you want to beat combos, and I don't see FoW in your Main Deck list, I don't get it.

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I do play Force. I am the guy who said no to shaving Forces a few posts ago. Energy Field is not for Jund or BUG but for fast aggro such as gobos who can put a time and mana restraint on you before you can reach 4 mana and they can kill you sometimes still even after terminus. Turn 2 rip into EF is a decent plan against tribal and thresh but will most likely move to the board. I gave up quite a few points against sneak and show because I believe show and tell players are going to move to the spell based strategies after the BOM but emrakul and Grislebrand decks are not a problem with a few sideboard cards. Moat in my opinion is better against Jund and BUG since it just lets you play the planeswalker game and buys more time then humility as long as you deal with deathrite which is easy. Humility is great but I prefer it when you can abuse it such as playing manlands and humility will definitely be on the side for grislebrand.

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Originally Posted by Jayman

I do play Force. I am the guy who said no to shaving Forces a few posts ago. Energy Field is not for Jund or BUG but for fast aggro such as gobos who can put a time and mana restraint on you before you can reach 4 mana and they can kill you sometimes still even after terminus. Turn 2 rip into EF is a decent plan against tribal and thresh but will most likely move to the board. I gave up quite a few points against sneak and show because I believe show and tell players are going to move to the spell based strategies after the BOM but emrakul and Grislebrand decks are not a problem with a few sideboard cards. Moat in my opinion is better against Jund and BUG since it just lets you play the planeswalker game and buys more time then humility as long as you deal with deathrite which is easy. Humility is great but I prefer it when you can abuse it such as playing manlands and humility will definitely be on the side for grislebrand.

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So you want to focus on fast aggro now? Goblin game 1 is probably the one good use of EF. Even Goblin game 2 has pyro/REB, too narrow again. Without RiP in play, it's just a dead card.

You want to beat BUG/Jund/Combo/Fast aggro, sounds like a lack of focus to me. My understanding is that there're 2 proven versions: Joe's spell-focus Angel version and other people's Rip-Helm version. spell-focus Angel version appears to be doing better against Combo while Rip-Helm version does better against Aggro/Aggro-control. Of course, I've been wrong before and most likely will be wrong again some time in the future, not even newsworthy.

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On a separate note, we know I have been an advocate for splashing Black. Let's see how you can blow out any Blue decks via Notion thief:
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/405522193
at 12:27:30....

The Esper Deathblade decks look troublesome. I can't say for sure until I have played against a few more of them, but it looks like a pretty solid deck. For now this is where I think I am at.

Decks with a small advantage over me:
merfolk
goblins
omniclash (I think)

Decks that are practically impossible:
12 post

Unknown:
esper deathblade

Decks that are close but that I don't want to play against anyway:
oops all spells
charbelcher

I am content with all other matchups.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oarsman

The Esper Deathblade decks look troublesome. I can't say for sure until I have played against a few more of them, but it looks like a pretty solid deck. For now this is where I think I am at.

Decks with a small advantage over me:
merfolk
goblins
omniclash (I think)

Decks that are practically impossible:
12 post

Unknown:
esper deathblade

Decks that are close but that I don't want to play against anyway:
oops all spells
charbelcher

I am content with all other matchups.

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Time to play some Pithing Needles and a Pyroclasm (maybe you already do) in the sideboard?

Also, Omniclash is really doable after sideboard with the usual mix of Pyroblasts and Flusterstorms (and additional flashy clock, Sulfur Elemental). Preboard you're obviously slightly the underdog depending on how much white you fan in your opening and if you can assemble CB with cmc 3 and cmc5 on top, but I think games2 and 3 you should win pretty comfortably with tight play.

12-post is not even worth metagaming against given its penetration is so low.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

On a separate note, we know I have been an advocate for splashing Black. Let's see how you can blow out any Blue decks via Notion thief:
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/405522193
at 12:27:30....

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by myself 5 pages ago

I'd think twice before dismissing that card so quickly, a 1-ofs against Jace and Brainstorm (read: all blue midrange decks) can still catch you with pants off and basically read 4: turn upside down an entire grinding game.

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why is deathblade dominating the SCG circuit right now? is it just because good players are playing the deck?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce

why is deathblade dominating the SCG circuit right now? is it just because good players are playing the deck?

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there's this guy called BDD, he played it in couple events before the release of DM.

he wrote articles here: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...f-Reaping.html, did some VODs (maybe deck-tech) about it, promoted the hell out of it, and this is what has happened.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oarsman

Decks with a small advantage over me:
merfolk
goblins
omniclash (I think)

Decks that are practically impossible:
12 post

Unknown:
esper deathblade

Decks that are close but that I don't want to play against anyway:
oops all spells
charbelcher

I am content with all other matchups.

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I think some of this must be the difference between traditional Miracles and RIP Miracles. I haven't lost to Goblins or Fish since running RIP, in no small part because Energy Field is basically game over (many times even without RIP). Oops All Spells folds to a RIP. Charbelcher is always in that category of mostly sucking but occasionally you just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (although I think that of all the decks, we have the best chance of surviving them going off).

The decks I'm most uneasy with are Jund and Shardless BUG. ANT can occasionally just get there with Abrupt Decay draws. Show and Tell decks in general are tough, but aside from their occasional cpl hands, the matchup is totally winnable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce

why is deathblade dominating the SCG circuit right now? is it just because good players are playing the deck?

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It's always hard to tell whether the SCG results are because the good players at that event happened to roll with it or whether the deck is actually that much better. Either way, if good players are taking notice then it's worth looking at.

The deck is basically Stoneblade minus Lingering Souls and plus Deathrite. Can't beat 'em, join 'em? Perhaps the Deathrites are also what allow this version to run Bob more easily than previous Stoneblade builds. It's a bit surprising that neither went far enough into the G splash for Abrupt Decay in the board. Between SFM, Snapcaster, and Bob, the deck is just spewing card advantage, and it does so without relying on the randomness of Cascade or the awful topdeckness of Hymns and Ancestrals.

Nolan's build looks even closer to traditional Stoneblade, with FoW MD and Clique and Notion Thief as auxiliary flash creatures. Fogle's build is a little closer to Jund, without FoWs and relying more on Liliana and discard to beat combo. I haven't watched the match yet, but aside from Notion Thief, Fogle's deck seems much stronger against the fair decks. Maybe the Disenchant in Nolan's board mattered in that sort of mirror and I could definitely see Purge being good.

I imagine that with Bob and SFM on the rise, we might see decks start favoring Spell Snare over Spell Pierce again. Meta cycles and all that jazz. The deck definitely seems like a much tougher MU than Stoneblade, but I would still rather play against Deathblade than Shardless.

I just watched the first part of the semifinal match from this weekend where Lauren Nolan demolished Justin Uppal with Notion Thief. I actually feel relieved. When I heard about the Notion Thief blowout I was a little scared. This seemed like a very unpleasant interaction for any control deck. Thief seemed so good that I spent the last couple weeks considering changing the my third color just to play it.

It may be that good. But, Uppal had to make several terrible plays in a row in order to get trashed by it. Careful play might be enough to mitigate the effects, and four mana is a lot to hold up. If Notion Thief ends up being a card that routinely blows out some people but gets played around by others, then I am happy to have it around. And I am still tempted to play it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oarsman

I just watched the first part of the semifinal match from this weekend where Lauren Nolan demolished Justin Uppal with Notion Thief. I actually feel relieved. When I heard about the Notion Thief blowout I was a little scared. This seemed like a very unpleasant interaction for any control deck. Thief seemed so good that I spent the last couple weeks considering changing the my third color just to play it.

It may be that good. But, Uppal had to make several terrible plays in a row in order to get trashed by it. Careful play might be enough to mitigate the effects, and four mana is a lot to hold up. If Notion Thief ends up being a card that routinely blows out some people but gets played around by others, then I am happy to have it around. And I am still tempted to play it.

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yeah, dunno what juppal was doing there. his play was bad if Lauren had Thief _or_ Clique.

I don't understand why EsperBlade would be such a bad matchup.

Rest in Peace "kills" all of his creatures, and Pyroclasm kills them actually.

I see Batterskull as the only real danger in those lists. That and discards. For those we play Spell Pierce, CounterTop and Leyline..

I fear Show and Tell much more actually

Legendary Miracle just got a huge boost: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...y/feature/248e


what about

3 Vendilion
2 Venser
3 Karakas

now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

Legendary Miracle just got a huge boost: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...y/feature/248e


what about

3 Vendilion
2 Venser
3 Karakas

now?

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Despites the new ruling about legendary permanents, this won't mean that you have to fill your deck with cards that you usually don't need in multiples. I can see the triple Vendilion, the double Venser (a bit less honestly, I think the second one would be better as something else), but triple Karakas still seems just useless even in a legend-heavy build. You're not going to pop both if you were to draw both, but remember that one still goes, and as a control deck you don't want to pop your own resources. They would still be worse Plains.

Same applies for the creatures: now it will be less awkward to have a Clique on the board and one in hand, but still popping one of the twos is something you won't be doing very willingly unless you're put in a bad spot- e.g., opponent with Storm trying to combo out. In that case, being able to play the second Clique and still keep a clock on the ground will be a huge improvement, but that's one of the few, limited scenarios I can think of now.

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One thing I'd like to put the focus on is that the red splash now is even less debatable, as (simultaneous) Jace Wars will revolve around trying to find your way to destroy the other's before he does the same with yours. Suddenly having 3 Vindicates floating in your deck seems appealing.

One could argue that Notion Thief would do the same effect if not better, but I think that unless you already have Thief as soon as your opponent sticks his Jace (ala Uppal vs Nolan), his Jace brainstoming once or twice will allow to find a removal or a counterspell. And after that episode, now a black source across the table will rise awareness, it will be way more difficult to repeat such a blowout as the card is now under the radar.

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

One thing I'd like to put the focus on is that the red splash now is even less debatable, as (simultaneous) Jace Wars will revolve around trying to find your way to destroy the other's before he does the same with yours. Suddenly having 3 Vindicates floating in your deck seems appealing.

One could argue that Notion Thief would do the same effect if not better, but I think that unless you already have Thief as soon as your opponent sticks his Jace (ala Uppal vs Nolan), his Jace brainstoming once or twice will allow to find a removal or a counterspell. And after that episode, now a black source across the table will rise awareness, it will be way more difficult to repeat such a blowout as the card is now under the radar.

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The red splash gives access to REB / Pyroblast, though.

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Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt

The red splash gives access to REB / Pyroblast, though.

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That's exactly what he's saying. Red is better because you have the three vindicates (read: reb/pyroblast) to actually kill the other person's jace

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

One thing I'd like to put the focus on is that the red splash now is even less debatable, as (simultaneous) Jace Wars will revolve around trying to find your way to destroy the other's before he does the same with yours. Suddenly having 3 Vindicates floating in your deck seems appealing.

One could argue that Notion Thief would do the same effect if not better, but I think that unless you already have Thief as soon as your opponent sticks his Jace (ala Uppal vs Nolan), his Jace brainstoming once or twice will allow to find a removal or a counterspell. And after that episode, now a black source across the table will rise awareness, it will be way more difficult to repeat such a blowout as the card is now under the radar.

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I'm not sure if I understand your position. Are you in favor of red splash or black splash? As in, you sound ambiguous and I can interpret it both ways.

Regardless, the bottom line is the impact of new rules, which means Planeswalkers are harder to destroy. It's not just opponent's Jace, it's opponent's Liliana and opponent's Karakas as well. Yes, REB/Pryo is very efficient at killing opponent's Jace TMS; however, doesn't a catch-all card like Vindicate sound appealing to you guys? The fact that you posturing for Notion Thief is a nice bonus, if anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I'm not sure if I understand your position. Are you in favor of red splash or black splash? As in, you sound ambiguous and I can interpret it both ways.

Regardless, the bottom line is the impact of new rules, which means Planeswalkers are harder to destroy. It's not just opponent's Jace, it's opponent's Liliana and opponent's Karakas as well. Yes, REB/Pryo is very efficient at killing opponent's Jace TMS; however, doesn't a catch-all card like Vindicate sound appealing to you guys? The fact that you posturing for Notion Thief is a nice bonus, if anything.

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He is saying the following:
1) Red was the best splashcolor for Miracle
2) Red is now even better
3) ...because we now have(and always had) 2-4 cc1 instant Vindicates to get rid of their jace
4) ...because you simply need an out to their Jace, as yours isn't going to do it, having a Jace while they don't is good.

Understood?