You should go into every tournament and every match with the mindset you expect to win, regardless of what they're playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by sherko7
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You should go into every tournament and every match with the mindset you expect to win, regardless of what they're playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by sherko7
You need to be prepared against this matchup either way. Good thing to do is play a few test games as Dredge against RiP decks and then do a few test games where you pilot the RiP decks against Dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by sherko7
Also, be smart about Therapies. I witnessed a player last tournament losing with 8 Zombies on board because he Therapied for Rest in Piece, when something like Confinement or Elephant Grass would have been the correct choice. Don't make mistakes like that. The matchup is by no means unwinnable but you have to do a lot of work to win.
You are right on this one. It is not always the right choice to go against grave hate. With 8 Zombies on the Board I would probably Therapy on Energy Field against Helm Combo Decks especially if their wihite mana sources are tapped out. E-Tutor might be another choice since they can go E-Tutor into Energy Field end of your turn if they have white mana open. Against RiP Enchantress its the same choice I think, but Energy Field is now Confinement/Grass like you mention.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
How do you choose while playing against these decks between the actual card or the tutor when they have the mana to tutor and you have just one Therapy? Two Therapies I would go Tutor first and then the actual card (if they have them...but now you can see it ^^). Similar thing that breaks my head is GSZ vs Ooze/Knight. But thats another story :-)
Greetings Chris
Why would you even bother to name Energy Field if you can simply destroy it via discard against them ?
Naming the actual card or the Tutor is allways depending on the situation and can't be breaken down to a simple right or wrong question. As Hokus said: play a couple of times against the deck and you'll get a feeling for it.
On a side note: Went 4-0 at my local tourney with my old LEDless list, after playing other archetyps for two months straight. As soemone in this thread once said: If you are going to play Dredge on a weekly basis you sometimes need to play something else until everyone has forgotten that they need gravehate and then you strike again.
UW Thopter Control 2:1 (lost g2 due to Ensnaring Bridge and recurring Crypts, damn you Academy Ruins...)
Canadian 2:0 ( won G1 after a mulligan to 4, won G2 against a Cage with the good old meat plan)
Canadian 2:1 ( lost g2 due to Cage and Delver beats)
Affinity 2:0
Nice! Keep on playing Dredge for a while please, as then I might be able to actually win the next tournament in Bottrop and not lose 0:2 against your RiP deck in the quarters :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Felidae
I agree with this 100% I switch up decks every week, whenever I have brought Dredge in the past month I went 4-0 as well :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Felidae
I'll be taking Dredge again this week though as Baltimore is nearing and I need to shape up my game vs a varied meta! (the guys at the shop like to switch decks up as well it is nice not having the same meta every week)
With my LEDless on MTGO (no budget for both in real life and online), I went
T1: (hand: GGT, GGT, Break, PImp, Citadel, Break, Something else)
Land, PImp
Pass
OPP has Enchantress in play
OPP EOT discard GGT
T2:
Dredge 6 (reveal irrelevant things)
Land, Discard both GGTs
Breakthrough for 1
OPP Scoop, fastest win I ever got with LEDless Dredge lol
Advice noted. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Problem with my current situation is that after playing Dredge for a while I have totally given up on trying to play other decks. :laugh:
The deck is just too fun/insane/unfair/crazy/challenging all at once!
I'd probably try out Storm but I still have a lot to save up for. Belcher would be nice too.:laugh:
Well I am still shy a few tutors and rits of TES and Belcher, but I agree with this 100% it is why I also play High Tide and might try Cephalid Breakfast as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by sherko7
:smile::smile::smile: Combo decks/Engine Decks
+1000000. No to FoW decks!:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzeler
I used to be a control/tempo player. But when I tried my hand at combo everything else just seemed too damn slow. I'd love to play High Tide too but I do not want to get FoWs, its too damned overpriced for what it does.:laugh:
You should discard dredgers and the occasional black creature for Ichorid triggers during your upkeep, just to develop a strong habit. It was irrelevant here because you discarded before the Bt, but that won't always be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
So curious what is the plan vs Elves? I just realized that besides Elesh-Norn I have no idea what to board in vs them? Do I just want to go off faster or do I board in anti-hate?
Also, I've been thinking about this, is it a good plan to Breakthrough with no Dredgers in your grave but in your hand? Or should Breakthrough always be used as an enabler?Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
@Fizzeler I would board in Elesh and/or Iona against Elves, just to be safe.
Always is a word that shouldn't be used at all in a game where you can instantly make up an infinite number of different board states.Quote:
Also, I've been thinking about this, is it a good plan to Breakthrough with no Dredgers in your grave but in your hand? Or should Breakthrough always be used as an enabler?
It always depends on different factors, like:
- can I cast it for x=1/4 ( i.e. do I have a chance to draw another draw spell that I don't have to discard?)
- how many cards do I have in my hand / how long till I can discard on my own?)
- How much preassure does my opponent apply?
- Do I need to steamroll him in one turn or can I savely win via slowdredging ?
etc.
That was my thought as well, I was just unsure if I should expect Faerie Macabre from Elves or Relic (I know not to expect Cage as it really hurts their deck)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Omni-Tell I have found to be actually one of my best match-ups (then again about 3 people at my LGS play it) they durdle for a few turns and lose before they can combo off and are very vulnerable to Therapy, after board I usually put them on Cage in Sneak, if Omni I put them on nothing except maybe Pyroclasm
Hey all...
I've been playing dredge for a while now. And I love my build as it works for me. currently the list im running is ...
4 colisseum
4 mine
4 city of brass
1 tarnished citadel
4 imps
4 trolls
3 thugs
4 putrid imps
4 narcomoeba
1 griselbrand
1 iona
3 ichorid
4 careful study
4 LEDs
3 breakthrough
4 lootings
4 bridge frombelow
3 dread return
4 cabal therapy
I never have a problem game one. im posting cuz i need help with my sideboard. I havent updated it in a while and i'm finding my lack of an efficient sideboard is hurting my ability to play against other tier one decks. currently this is my sideboard
4 natures claim
4 leyline of the void
2 firestorms
1 blightsteel colossus
1 elesh norn
2 flayer of the hatebound
1 ancient grudge
my sideboard is horrible lol. any help would be muhc appreciated. the hate im used to seeing in my metagame is a lot of surgical extraction, as i playa lot against stoneblade and miracle decks. i also see a lot crop rotation and maverick typical hate like ooze and bog. but my main worry so far has been surgical extraction. i wanted to know if maybe what i should do is instead of including the extra dread return targets in the board maybe i should include nether shadows or ashen ghouls instead for a higher threat density ? what do you all think ?
Does not having permanent-based discard (Tribe) hinder you at all? Or because of the Lootings and Careful Studies its fine?Quote:
Originally Posted by raikenxy
sorry i forgot to include the LED's in my original list. i run LED dredge, the only permanent discard i have is putrid impQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Took Dredge to my LGS yesterday.Mixed results, I think I suck. :frown:
List:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
1 Darkblast
4 Bridge From Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
SB:
3 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ichorid
2 Memory's Journey
1 card I can't recall :tongue:
Report:
Round 1 vs. Feline playing Zoo (recent SCGSeattle winner)
Game 1 I couldn't seem to get much going and an early Scavenging Ooze kinda wrecked me.
Side out some random stuff and bring in them Firestorms along with the Memory's Journeys. I typically side out singletons of stuff like Putrid Imp, Faithless Looting & Breakthrough. But I honestly don't recall what I sided out. This is probably the one thing I suck the most at.
Game 2 I managed to Cabal Therapy that Scavenging Ooze on turn 1 and it was pretty much a wrecking ball from there.
Game 3 the Scavenging Ooze hit the table, but not before I had established a pretty good position. I was somehow able to just keep moving forward through that Ooze and take my first win while staring down that little green bitch. I do recall at one point the Ooze targeted my Bridge From Below and I flashed back the Memory's Journey to shuffle all 3 of them that were in my yard back into my deck. Not sure it was the right play to choose all 3 of them but it seemed better than losing them to the Ooze and I think I dredged one or two right back out anyway.
Win 2-1
1-0
Round 2 vs Charles playing BUG Control:
Game 1 I didn't seem to get much going before staring down a Deathrite Shaman who quickly became problematic. Once his twin brother joined along with a Dark Confidant things got beyond all hope in a hurry.
Again siding out some random singletons for those Firestorms and Memory's Journeys.
Game 2 wasn't much different than Game 1. At one point I recall having to draw cards for several turns because my Bridge From Belows had been Extirpated and all my dredgers had been eaten by the Shaman. Even the Firestorm I tried to regain position with was met with a Flusterstorm I couldn't pay.
Loss 0-2
1-1
Round 3 vs Kade playing RiP/Helm (I'm guessing, I never actually saw the Helm):
Game 1, at this point I'm basically just not in the mood to even continue playing Magic since everyone seems ot be packing mad amounts of maindeck hate and clearly I didn't get the memo. I remember having a decent yard of about half my deck and some Zombies out when Kade slams down the Rest In Peace and I just scooped. I think I probably shouldn't have scooped because I did have the Zombie horde on the narch and might have gotten there before he found his win-con. But I had told myself "There really isn't any fun to be had here, if the RiP comes down I'm bouncing." And I did.
Game 2 I tried an early Cabal Therapy naming Rest In Peace only to find it wasn't in his hand, which told me that it would be coming later, once he drew into it and before I can Therapy for it. And wouldn't you know, I was right. About 2 turns later it landed and I scooped 'em up again.
Loss 0-2
1-2
At this point I debated bouncing early but several of the players talked me into staying one more round to finish out the tourney.
Round 3 vs random dude playing strange U/B deck. I still have no idea what he was trying to do.
Game 1 I did what dredge does on turn 2, ripped his hand apart and swung with a huge horde of hasted Zombies and my best friend Flame-Kin Zealot. This after he joked that he was about to get decimated by Dredge, he was right.
Game 2 was about to be basically the same thing, only looking at my hand it would take until turn 3. But on his turn 2 he noticed he had shuffled his sideboard in and not sided anything out so he scooped.
Win 2-0
2-2
Anyway, it wasn't my best outing but it is basically the way it goes every time I play Dredge at my LGS. I think I've gone 2-2 every time, I can't seem to get past that point with it. But honestly, I've been stuck at 2-2 for months now no matter what I play. I think I just suck at Magic. :frown: The only shining spot in the evening was beating Feline. Sorry, but you are the SCGSeattle winner so I'll take that as something.
I'm curious, did you mulligan your hands at all? And if so, do you feel they were appropriate?
Deathrite Shaman should be the least of your worries when you just explode all over an opponent with LED and such. I mean, that situation doesn't always happen, but LED Dredge has a lot of raw power and I just can't tell for certain what you did without knowing if you mulliganed correctly.
That or your line of play to start the game off with in each of your match ups.
I did mull quite a few times. I will mull pretty agressively with this deck, I have no problem with that. If I don't have a dredger, a discard outlet OTHER than LeD and the land to play that out, I mull. I also do what I can to set up a Looting or a Breakthrough after the dredger is in the yard. Some times I have to use a Study or Looting to get them there, but I do what I can to set it up for after the dredger is there for the most value and quickest speed. But for what ever reason I just wasn't very fast this time. Outside of the games where I just erupted like a volcano, it felt very sluggish for some reason. There was really no in between.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I've tried to watch some of your video matches Hollywood. But it's hard to really get a sense of what you're doing without commentary. Maybe you can post some links to the good ones that might help me see the lines of play you're taking a bit better. I'm looking to try Manaless soon but I don't know that it'll be any better if I can't figure out this one first. I love this deck, it's a lot of fun to play. I just don't seem to be getting the results others are getting out of it.
I went 0-3 drop with Dredge at the some what recent Grand Prix in Atlanta.Quote:
Originally Posted by TerribleTim68
Timo, one of the creators of Quadlazer(I believe?), seemed to have ditched Dredge in favor of ANT.
Dredge hasn't made any Starcitygames top eights recently despite being played by a lot of players.
It isn't even a Deck to Beat at the moment.
Dredge is not an easy deck to play. The deck punishes you when you don't mulligan enough and sometimes punishes you when mulligan too much. It can sometimes lose to a topdecked Scavenging Ooze or Tormod's Crypt despite perfect play. It can poop on you when all you need to dredge is a Narcomoeba or Bridge from Below. Sometimes it mulls to oblivion no matter how you have built the deck.
Being 2-2 while having to play a RiP deck isn't that bad. You will only get better with deck the more you play it. I have been playing dredge since it was a deck in Standard and I still make mistakes with it. I always learn something new about the deck everytime I play it.
Well, I appreciate that. Thanks for the comment Joe. The RiP deck plus the Ooze deck was a bit of a challenge. I was happy to win through Ooze, but then facing Shaman and RiP in the next two rounds was a bit taxing on my mental state and abilities with the deck.
I might make a couple last minuet changes but as of right now I'm gonna stick to my guns and play this Saturday for some duals.
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 undiscovered paradise
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichoird
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
2 Dread Return
1 flame kin zelot
1 Gristlebane
sb
4 leyline of the void
3 firestorm
3 natures claim
2 ancient grudge
1 elesh norn
1 iona
1 ichori
+1000 to this! Sure, the deck can go autopilot at times and win in the hands of even the beginners. But it takes a certain amount of skill and knowledge of the format to start top 8-ing with it consistently. Sure, you can luck out and get the best matchups. But relying on that can only take you so far. Post board play with the deck takes some time to really get the hang of. Decisions made post board (not during boarding, as I now find it pretty straight forward) is very crucial. The deck may not be the hardest deck to play in the format, but it definitely isn't an easy one.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Finally my LED list is done!
Dredgers:
4x GGT
4x Thug
4x Imp
Draw:
4x Looting
3x Study
4x Breakthrough
Free:
4x Narcomoeba
2x Ichorid (might bump to 3)
4x Bridge
Return Package:
2x Return
1x FKZ
Discard:
4x PImp
4x Therapy
4x LED
Land:
4x Coliseum
4x Mine
4x City
SB:
1x Ichorid
1x Elesh
1x Iona
2x Revelation
4x Nature's Claim
4x Grudge
2x Darkblast
Let me know what you guys think! :)
I'm all for criticism. :)
Definetely needs more lands in the sideboard. You'll be able to cast Grudge and Nature's Claim with 8-gold lands once in a lifetime. Add 3 Tarnished Citadels in the place of 1 Ray of Revelation and 2 Ancient Grudge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
I was wondering if I should play my own grave-hate in the SB? I have a bunch of anti-hate, but should I run my own? Funny aside, I just got rid of most of my own Citadels lol...
I would never cut a study effect. You may cut a breakthrough here because dredge wins g1 most of the time and you will sideout out the breakthrough in boarding games. Study is a card I never side out because it can dig for antihate and does something on its own. Breakthrough is a very powerful card but it might be to all-in for some boarding games (e.g. It does nothing against leyline while study digs for claim).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
I would also never go below 3 ichorids. You have 3 after boarding which is a good thing but you might switch it with fkz or get rid of fkz at all. Might be personal taste but I do not like fkz. If I was ever to maindeck targets it would be grisel if I use 1 target. If I need an additional maindeck targdt I may think about fkz but would probably take flayer instead cuz he bypasses prisons or opposing zombies while being less dependant on bridges. My suggestion would be DR-less though but I do not want to force you into my preferences :-)
What are the darkblasts, grudges and rays for in your meta? Darkblast may be used 1 main instead of 1 thug to save some sb space for additional lands. I dont like drawing 2 citadels here. Same goes for paradise. You might want to go with a split here. Mine is 2 paradise 1 citadels right now. Ray have not been needed in a long time now.
4 grudges seem a bit to much. If you also use them to force a tormods crypt use by your opponent you might also get another threats in like ghouls or shadows which can force a crypt too in addition to be helpful against extractions.
Hope that helps
Mindlash
I would never cut a study effect. You may cut a breakthrough here because dredge wins g1 most of the time and you will sideout out the breakthrough in boarding games. Study is a card I never side out because it can dig for antihate and does something on its own. Breakthrough is a very powerful card but it might be to all-in for some boarding games (e.g. It does nothing against leyline while study digs for claim).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
I would also never go below 3 ichorids. You have 3 after boarding which is a good thing but you might switch it with fkz or get rid of fkz at all. Might be personal taste but I do not like fkz. If I was ever to maindeck targets it would be grisel if I use 1 target. If I need an additional maindeck targdt I may think about fkz but would probably take flayer instead cuz he bypasses prisons or opposing zombies while being less dependant on bridges. My suggestion would be DR-less though but I do not want to force you into my preferences :-)
What are the darkblasts, grudges and rays for in your meta? Darkblast may be used 1 main instead of 1 thug to save some sb space for additional lands. I dont like drawing 2 citadels here. Same goes for paradise. You might want to go with a split here. Mine is 2 paradise 1 citadels right now. Ray have not been needed in a long time now.
4 grudges seem a bit to much. If you also use them to force a tormods crypt use by your opponent you might also get another threats in like ghouls or shadows which can force a crypt too in addition to be helpful against extractions.
Hope that helps
Mindlash
In all honesty, my SB is a mish-mash of what I've seen online, I just added more than normal, lol. It's just because I haven't tested post-board games as much as I should, so I told myself if I add a lot of cards, I can just chip away and sculpt the SB how I want it.
I was actually thinking about putting the 4th Study back in, but I love Breakthrough... Might need to try it out though.
I would run the 4th Careful Study before I run the 4th Breakthrough. You can keep Careful Study + Careful Study hands but you can't keep Breakthrough + Breakthrough hands; the ones with 4 Careful Study 4 Breakthrough will mulligan less.
Dumb question, how does one win using Flayer? Return it the return a huge GGT? Am I missing something?
Yep thats it. You return Flayer for 4 damage, sac him and two other dudes to return a GGT. Flayer returns due to undying and deals another 5. GGT enters the battlefield and does hopefully 11 :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Flayer turns all your Ichorids into Lightning Bolts which can be very nice sometimes :-)
Thing is...you should have one more DR as needed. For a Flayerkill it would be optimal to have 3 DR. In your case with FKZ two are enough cuz you need only 1 DR to win. I've seen people with flayer and just 2 DR but it seems a bit unreliable to me...especially to kill your opponent the turn you try to return flayer with just 2 DR in deck.
What he says. I would run 12 studies if I were allowed to do so. I would never play less then the 8 allowed studies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
If you stick to DR I think Elesh and Iona are good targets to use. You can cover most needs with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Darkblast might me something for you if you encounter Peacekeeper often. But then again I would run him main over the 4th thug as I mentioned above. I don't see other uses for it as of now...at least not in my meta.
Revelation might me something against moat, propaganda, elefant grass and the like. I used it in the past because we had two regular enchantress players running around and one of my friends played it too. Other then that I never used it. It does not help against leylines obviously.
1 or 2 Grudges might also be enough. I mainly board it against Belcher, ANT and the like to kill their Cannon and LED's which they usually play to safe them from my therapies. It can also help against Batterskull, Ensnaring Bridge and so on.
Greetings Mindlash
I got myself a Flayer and an extra Dread Return because I want to try out the Flayer kill.
Also, I have 3 Coffin Purges so -2 Ancient Grudge -1 Ray +3 Coffin Purges? It's just I think I might need my own graveyard hate. :)
If you feel as if you need graveyard hate then run the playset of Leylines. Any other graveyard hate is usually just Sideboard filler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
I'm trying to find a way to fit in my Flayer... The list seems so tight, its hard to remove and add cards...
I'm trying to fit in both a Dread Return AND a Flayer, and all I can think of is moving the FKZ, but after that... Maybe a Therapy..?
Didn't think it was going to be THIS complicated. :P
You might want to try Andos flayer list from the starting post. He finished top8 at gp indy with it. After the tournament he cut the firestorms for 1 fairy, 1 vapor and a sphinx of lost truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Its better to make your own board and probably maindeck but I think this one might be a good point to start :-)
Greetings Chris
I did just that. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
After I told myself I'd cut a Therapy, I checked the Primer, and the numbers match up pretty good.
I goldfished the deck, and I'm liking what I'm seeing. Winning without needing the combat phase is pretty awesome. I also noticed that one can sac the Flayer to Return a GGT, and here comes a question, can I stack the CIP triggers in my favour to deal damage with the GGT AND the Undying Flayer?
I just rechecked out Ando's list. It does seem like a good starting point for Dredge with Dread Return in it. I personally would swap the Tarnished Citadel for a Grisselbrand but that's just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Also, don't use Ando's sideboard as it is quite outdated.
@Hollywood: Just skimmed through the primer and noticed the Quadlazer list needs a small update. It now runs three Ashen Ghouls and -1 Ancient Grudge, -1 Memory's Journey, and -1 Ray of Revelation. I believe.
Edit: -1 Tarnished Citadel and +1 Undiscovered Paradise.
Speaking of the Quadlazer list, I haven't heard much from the Germans that used to frequent these forums. Has there been little success with Dredge over there lately? Any new tech being tested over there?