[Deck] 12 Post

Just started trying GU 10 post about a month ago since my usual deck Reanimator is not well positioned right now between all the Delver decks and Deathrite shaman and I like bashing with big creatures.

Having problems with the following match ups.

Burn seems hard to win even with boarding in Forces and Blue blasts. Price of Progress just owns you. If you don't have counter or Crop Rotation for Chasm in response you will likely lose the game from a resolved Price of Progress. Only running 2 Basics. Eidelon also is a huge beating since you take damage from Map, Top, Crop that you need to develop your mana.

Infect is also a huge beating and is likely to see an uptick since it top 8ed a SCG lately. Maybe 4th Repeal would help but it doesn't even work on Inkmoth Nexus and they may have the Vines. More Moment's Peace board?

BUG Delver is a huge pain with Discard, Counters and Wasteland. You want to wait to play around Daze but you then get hit by discard. Liliana is pretty annoying making you discard and turns off show and tell unless you Show and Tell a Titan and get Garden. Garden helps with the plant to sack to Liliana if you do resolve a show and tell into Titan but slows your get an Eldrazi plan.
Against Delver decks do you play around Daze with your Top/Map/Needle or do you just jam it? BUG delver hits you with discard so you are put in a use it or lose it but running your stuff out into Daze just seems bad.

Also have a few questions for those playing the deck awhile please.

So Kozilek vs Ulamog or both?

Kozilek draws you 4 which is really good if your getting hit by discard. Kozilek also costs 1 less mana which has come up a few times. Ulamog destroys a permanent which gets rid of Ensnaring Bridge and other annoying things that stop you from winning. If your boarding Ensnaring Bridge Ulamog seems like the better choice.

Hard to find room to fit both though.

So what anti aggro cards should I be running sideboard?

All is Dust costs 7 which is not always possible to cast in time before you lose. Tried 2 board and wasn't to impressed that week.

Elephant Grass ties up my own mana so interferes with casting my own spells to develop my board. Tried 2 board and didn't like them.

Engineered Explosives has been good answer to Empty the Warrens or multiple Delvers and is good on 1 or two if I have the colored mana to use it but can be not very good against varied costs or things that cost more then 2. Not sure if I want a second one board. I run 1 main deck with Trinket to fetch it.

Moment's Peace stalls for 2 turns if it doesn't get countered, hit by discard or deathrite shamaned. I play against too much BUG Delver since my brother plays it. It does not stop burn and requires mana on 2 seperate turns but does not cast as much as Elephant Grass ultimately does but requiring colored mana can still hinder development. Been running 2 between main and board.

Ensnaring Bridge often got destroyed by Abrupt Decay/other removal or you can't empty your hand fast enoughif your holding Eldrazi or Primeval Titan or get wastelanded off colored sources. Deathrite Shaman also gets around Bridge which is a problem since you can be at pretty low life by the time you get your bridge down and your hand size down. Tried 2 in the board.

Propganda doesn't stop the one big fatty from beating you. Didn't actually try this.

Blue blast vs Flusterstorm or a mix of both?
Blue Blast is better against burn but Flusterstorm is better vs Dredge, Combo, and Storm.

@Sauce
Congrats on your finish.

@maChooga
Needle on Top is the best way to fight Miracles hurting their card selection and turning off the ability to float miracles on top. Fetch for Forest early so can cast prime time off forest + vesuva on Forest if they have a blood moon.

Krosan Grip is pretty good since it gets rid of Bloodmoon, Counterbalance, Eidelon, Null Rod, Vortex, among other things.

Karn I think depends if there is alot of Miracles. It didn't seem that good to me in other match ups

Lands really depends if you can get Pithing Needle on Wasteland before they start recuring Wasteland with Loam. Crop Rotating or Maping for Bog to remove their Life from the Loam and using Vesuva to copy it vs further Loams is great but be aware of cycle lands they may have to get their loam back in response. You have Repeal and Karakas to deal with their Marit Lage token if they Thespian Stage/Dark Depths Combo. Chalice in the board to set on 2 to lock out Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire is pretty nice too.

@Davek


@J-Funk
I remember running Teferi's Response years ago in the sideboard of Keeper for Vintage as an anti wasteland measure. Back then there wasn't any Spell Pierce or Daze so Teferi's Response was great.

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Originally Posted by J-Funk

After a year away from Eldrazi madness, I'm returning to this deck. Very excited to dig back in.

I'm currently testing Teferi's Response in the sideboard to fight wasteland decks, vindicates, ports, what have you. Has anybody tried this card before? It seems VERY good.

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Crop rotation

This past weekend there was a Duel for Duals where I showed up with Snow-Post. Total there were 75 people that showed up for the event... here's what I've learned...

My build was a realitively stock list with the glacial chasm main, one of both wurmcoil engine & obstinate baloth in SB.

Rounds 1 and 2 were against RUG delver and miracles respectively. They were realitively painless. Record: 2-0

Round 3 was against the Mirror match?!? My opponent was on the UG 10-Post vs. my snow-post. Despite us both having "nearly infinite" colorless mana, we determined the UG Post build trumps the Snow-post build. Game 1, I was put into the position where I had to Marit Leige or die to Eldrazi. Unfortunately, I knew that I was playing directly into a Repeal. Game 2, we both had two Eldrazi's in play. My opponent was able to survive Annihilator 10, whereas I was not. Ultimately, I had a pair of sacred grounds in play to hedge against the annihilator. The first one was krosan gripped and the 2nd was repeal. I was the one with no permanents left lol. This was one of the most fun and ridiculous games of magic I've ever had. Record: 2-1

Round's 4 and 5 were against BUG delver and Shardless BUG. Between grafdiggers cages and null rods, I wasn't able to do too much. I did drop a obstinate baloth into play on turn 2 against shardless. It did 12 damage and then got outclassed by a 5/6 tarmogoyf. I don't think it's worth a sideboard slot. Record: 2-3

Round 6 was against Lands. Game 1 I got turbo dark depths. Game 2, I grinded out a win in the second game. Unfortunately, we didn't have enough time for a 3rd game. Record 2-3-1

Round 7 was against Shardless BUG. This time their hate cards didn't show up and I took infinite turns. :-) Record 3-3-1

Even though I didn't top 8, I had a blast. It turns out that my Round 3 UG 10-Post player did top 8 however.

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Originally Posted by J-Funk

I'm currently testing Teferi's Response in the sideboard to fight wasteland decks, vindicates, ports, what have you. Has anybody tried this card before? It seems VERY good.

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II've thought about but against most decks, it's up to four cards to deal with four cards (their Wastelands). That's not worth the space because there's so much more to deal with than Land destruction, but if your meta has more of those effects you mentioned, then let me know how your testing goes.

[QUOTE=Kirika;829129]
@Davek

QUOTE]

I suppose there should be a message for me here...?

I'm a fans of this fantastic deck. May I ask why the MD Revokers has been abandoned in your latest building?
Besides, I got my own 12-post deck days ago, but I find it is really a trouble fighting against BUG delver. Are there some recipes in this match-up?
Thanks for your consideration!

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Originally Posted by Leo

I'm a fans of this fantastic deck. May I ask why the MD Revokers has been abandoned in your latest building?
Besides, I got my own 12-post deck days ago, but I find it is really a trouble fighting against BUG delver. Are there some recipes in this match-up?
Thanks for your consideration!

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In my experience, this deck has two tough matchups from commonly played decks:

• BUG Delver
• Elves!

Omnitell and MUD are also very bad but thankfully are not commonly played.

I personally would much rather face Burn, ANT & Belcher than BUG delver and Elves.

I think the games that are hardest to win vs BUG delver are the ones where they attack your hand via Thoughseize/Hymn/V.Clique.
If they have any pressure at all to back up the hand disruption, it's almost impossible to win.

Your best bet is to play around LD in the matchup via basics, smart fetching, crop rotations and try to resolve S&T into a Titan.
You will RARELY get to hard cast a Primetime in the BUG Delver matchup due to hand disruption, wastelands and the delver/goyf clock (as well as FoW/daze/Liliana).

I sideboard in: 1 Relic, 1 Revoker (for DRS/liliana/chumping), 1 Moment's peace. I take out 2 Expedition Map and 1 Candelabra (I only run 1) because they are not great at keeping you alive early and also 2 of them grow Goyf by sacrifice. Also they have decays fwiw.

The BUG MU is discussed thoroughly in this thread, so read a little further back for more info.

This matchup is rough if you play into their game plan. It is still very winnable, and I feel favored. Most of what sauce said I agree with except for the assembling SnT+Titan plan. My BUG wins are actually most often with a hardcast Titan, and seldom with SnT. The reason is that their deck is built to prevent decks from assembling multi card combos (sneak+guy, SFM+business) through black disruption and instead forces oppents cards to be good on their own, where BUGs individual card power is very high. SnT does nothing on its own, so leaning on it is playing into their strategy. Same goes for candle. I side most of them out.

Instead, playing small ball and interacting with their creatures enough to live and hit land drops is the best plan IMO. The worst possible line is hitting 4 lands, having a map out, and SnT Titan in hand, only to be blown out by hymn. Ideally, you have access to a basic, and Multiple Tops, Brainstorms and Repeals - Cards that boost your chances of drawing cards with higher individual power. I won't keep a hand without a top or brainstorm. You'll find your Titan soon enough. I side in extra needle, flusterstorm, and EE, to increase interaction.

Good plays are Repeal Delver, Crop respond to waste, Needle Liliana, moments peace. Map is just fine if you don't tap out and expose it to abrupt decay. Bad plays usually involve having your hand has your #1 resource, which is easy to fall into.

Cards to consider adding if you want more weapons are Oracle, then Oracle 2, GSZ, Trinket Mage, Khalni Garden.

Tim, I agree w/ S&T being "bad" because of what you said.

The games I recall winning vs BUG delver are usually off either A) quick S&T that resolves B) Opponent that keeps incorrectly and/or sequences plays incorrectly C) Opponent has a creature heavy draw w/o land/hand disruption.
It's not possible to beat the BUG delver's nut draw w/ our nut draw. You need to draw better than average to beat their average draws. I don't consider myself favored and I play 1 Khalni garden, 1 Oracle, 1 Trinket mage and 1 EE main as well as 1 Moment's peace.

You obviously "can" resolve a hardcast titan but in my experience it occurs when they don't disrupt your lands/hand or they have no pressure to go with all the disruption.
If you don't have cavern you can also go for the S&T bait into hardcast next turn.

Have you guys tried All is dust? I found it working fine against both decks. Elves player usually have to clog the board with tons of elves in order to find the highest number of Quirion Rangers and Wirewood Symbiotes to untap D.rite Shaman multiple times while you're hiding behind Glacial Chasm, so it usually wipes them out, while it can save you from a compromised situation against BUG taking care of Liliana, Delver and Tarmo in a single shot. It works expecially well when your opponent has ticked up Liliana for some turn because chances that he has 2 blue cards for Fow are thinner.
Avoiding any artifact hate is a big plus in my opinion, but of course you have to reach a critical mass of mana to cast it, which is not always easy.

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Originally Posted by Davek

Have you guys tried All is dust? I found it working fine against both decks. Elves player usually have to clog the board with tons of elves in order to find the highest number of Quirion Rangers and Wirewood Symbiotes to untap D.rite Shaman multiple times while you're hiding behind Glacial Chasm, so it usually wipes them out, while it can save you from a compromised situation against BUG taking care of Liliana, Delver and Tarmo in a single shot. It works expecially well when your opponent has ticked up Liliana for some turn because chances that he has 2 blue cards for Fow are thinner.
Avoiding any artifact hate is a big plus in my opinion, but of course you have to reach a critical mass of mana to cast it, which is not always easy.

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Except that DRS will be bounced back to their owners hand with Symbiote in response to your All Is Dust. You can make a fine trade here but it's not guaranteed to save you between your opponent being able to refill his hand and board with Glimpse and having saved DRS and the like to rebuild fast.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Except that DRS will be bounced back to their owners hand with Symbiote in response to your All Is Dust. You can make a fine trade here but it's not guaranteed to save you between your opponent being able to refill his hand and board with Glimpse and having saved DRS and the like to rebuild fast.

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DRS has no haste and is not very good on it's own without all the untappers and Birchlore Rangers, so you usually have gained 1-2 turns more to live and take the game over. If this deck has reached a sufficient amount of mana in order to cast All is Dust it is very possible that you have the opportunity to hard-cast a Titan the very next turn, gaining enough lifes to keep that Glacial chasm alive one more turn, allowing you to go infinite. It's not a matchup i'm happy to face anyway, no doubts.

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Originally Posted by sauce

Tim, I agree w/ S&T being "bad" because of what you said.

The games I recall winning vs BUG delver are usually off either A) quick S&T that resolves B) Opponent that keeps incorrectly and/or sequences plays incorrectly C) Opponent has a creature heavy draw w/o land/hand disruption.
It's not possible to beat the BUG delver's nut draw w/ our nut draw. You need to draw better than average to beat their average draws. I don't consider myself favored and I play 1 Khalni garden, 1 Oracle, 1 Trinket mage and 1 EE main as well as 1 Moment's peace.

You obviously "can" resolve a hardcast titan but in my experience it occurs when they don't disrupt your lands/hand or they have no pressure to go with all the disruption.
If you don't have cavern you can also go for the S&T bait into hardcast next turn.

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Of course this deck will lose to the grail hands of pressure+disruption+LD. Our lists are built to handle pressure and fight through LD. But I think what needs to be communicated is that fighting sorcery speed disruption requires instant speed interaction (top, storm, crop, repeal), as opposed to fighting through blue permission with sorcery speed threats (sacrificial SnT, artifacts, treats), like against RUG delver. While well practiced pilots will have an easy time against rug, keeping the same approach against bug will bring trouble quick, it's a totally different animal.

Regarding Elves, if you're already progressing after chasm lands, 7 mana should be a next turn combo win over all is dust in my opinion. Moments peace in multiples has really helped this MU so much. I play EE as my favorite sweeper and I think it's better than all is dust against both elves and bug.

Work been taxing me hard lately but lately it loosened up. Still no time for weekend events sadly, but with weekly magic being possible I am back to testing and theorycrafting.

Have been looking again at bonfire and testing Kurkesh. Results are intriguing.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Work been taxing me hard lately but lately it loosened up. Still no time for weekend events sadly, but with weekly magic being possible I am back to testing and theorycrafting.

Have been looking again at bonfire and testing Kurkesh. Results are intriguing.

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What purpose does Kurkesh ever serve in this deck? Is there something huge I'm missing about it?

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Originally Posted by 203995014

What purpose does Kurkesh ever serve in this deck? Is there something huge I'm missing about it?

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I guess it's a draw engine with Top, double tutor with Map and double untap with candelabra (but this is the icing on the cake, maybe in this version they are not even included).

What annoys me is the double red in the casting cost and the activations require R: if it was less color intensive it could be very useful.

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Originally Posted by sauce

Tim, I agree w/ S&T being "bad" because of what you said.

The games I recall winning vs BUG delver are usually off either A) quick S&T that resolves B) Opponent that keeps incorrectly and/or sequences plays incorrectly C) Opponent has a creature heavy draw w/o land/hand disruption.
It's not possible to beat the BUG delver's nut draw w/ our nut draw. You need to draw better than average to beat their average draws. I don't consider myself favored and I play 1 Khalni garden, 1 Oracle, 1 Trinket mage and 1 EE main as well as 1 Moment's peace.

You obviously "can" resolve a hardcast titan but in my experience it occurs when they don't disrupt your lands/hand or they have no pressure to go with all the disruption.
If you don't have cavern you can also go for the S&T bait into hardcast next turn.

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Really thanks for all of the instructions!
And I fully aggree with you. BUG delver are attacking in 4 directions, clock, countermagic, lands destruction and discard. I could beat BUG when they have massive creatures or some narrow means, but seldomly win when they are attacking all around, especially ate a 2-turn hymn. That's what I'm struggling.
I'll test Oracle and EE (already using the Garden when I asking for help), hope they could help.

Flusterstorm might seem like an odd thing to side in against BUG but I'll put one or two in over candles or SnT to allow me to snag a hymn, or push through a crop rotation or something. It's nothing crazy but it's tool to fight their disruption rather than dance around it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Work been taxing me hard lately but lately it loosened up. Still no time for weekend events sadly, but with weekly magic being possible I am back to testing and theorycrafting.

Have been looking again at bonfire and testing Kurkesh. Results are intriguing.

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Great to see you back ☺ I'm really curious about your return to R, perhaps you can tell the red cards (is there something else besides BotD and Kurk?) and the involved artifacts, please? Right now I'm tinkering with Firespout, but only as SB option...

Haven't posted in a long time, but I took 6th at a 33-person weekly Legacy event at my LGS with this list:

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 All Is Dust
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Exploration
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
8 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Vesuva

SIDEBOARD
3 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Primeval Titan
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction

Round 1 - Jund NicFit
This wasn't very close. I steamrolled my opponent 2-0 in less than 15 minutes.

Round 2 - RUG Delver
I lost this one, which was fairly unusual, even off mulligans to 4 and 5. Game 1 lasted about 40 minutes, with me hiding behind a Chasm and Tabernacle. I used multiple Vesuvas to copy Thespian's Stage, which let me hang on at 2 life by repeatedly resetting Chasm. Unfortunately, I kept on topdecking lands, but no tutors or threats. My opponent eventually found double Stifle for my Vesuva/Stage + Candelabra, leaving me unable to copy Chasm in response to upkeep, and could Bolt me for lethal. Given the time left, I mulled away a reasonable but slower hand in game 2 and got punished for it. I kept 2x Ancient Stirrings, Forest, Needle, Candelabra, drew Cloudpost, Glimmerpost and All Is Dust, but couldn't find a second Post in time to wipe his board.

Round 3 - Miracles
Unsurprisingly, this was a very quick 2-0.

Round 4 - Lands
I almost snap conceded when I saw pairings. Aside from it being the worst possible matchup, my opponent is a very skilled player. Fortunately, I decided to play it out. I scooped game 1 fairly quickly to a Wasteland/Loam lock so that I'd actually have time for post-SB games:
+2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Primeval Titan, +3 Krosan Grip
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Maze of Ith, -3 All Is Dust
[Note: My maindeck is 61 cards and sideboard is 14, which is why it's +7 and -8. Essentially, I preboard Tabernacle in game 1 for the free wins. It's worked very well so far.]
In game 2, I was able to Surgical his Loam very early. My opponent had Dark Depths and Wasteland on board. I played Cloudpost to bait his Wasteland, then responded with Crop Rotation into Thespian's Stage to make my own Marit Lage to kill him on my next turn.
In game 3, I had a slow start after a mulligan but had a T1 Needle naming Wasteland. My opponent didn't have a loam but dropped Revoker naming Expedition Map and proceeded to beat down while I dropped a few Posts. He found Loam and cast Intuition to get Depths, Stage, and Karakas. I gave him Karakas, then Surgicaled his Loam. A topdecked Krosan Grip let me kill Revoker and find Eye of Ugin, which let me find and cast Kozilek, which in turn drew a Candelabra, which in turn let me find and cast Ulamog.
In 3 years of playing the deck, this was my second time ever beating Lands. Both times were against skilled pilots who've top 8ed multiple SCGs with the deck, so I'm quite pleased.

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

Haven't posted in a long time, but I took 6th at a 33-person weekly Legacy event at my LGS with this list:

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 All Is Dust
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Exploration
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
8 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Vesuva

SIDEBOARD
3 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Primeval Titan
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction

Round 1 - Jund NicFit
This wasn't very close. I steamrolled my opponent 2-0 in less than 15 minutes.

Round 2 - RUG Delver
I lost this one, which was fairly unusual, even off mulligans to 4 and 5. Game 1 lasted about 40 minutes, with me hiding behind a Chasm and Tabernacle. I used multiple Vesuvas to copy Thespian's Stage, which let me hang on at 2 life by repeatedly resetting Chasm. Unfortunately, I kept on topdecking lands, but no tutors or threats. My opponent eventually found double Stifle for my Vesuva/Stage + Candelabra, leaving me unable to copy Chasm in response to upkeep, and could Bolt me for lethal. Given the time left, I mulled away a reasonable but slower hand in game 2 and got punished for it. I kept 2x Ancient Stirrings, Forest, Needle, Candelabra, drew Cloudpost, Glimmerpost and All Is Dust, but couldn't find a second Post in time to wipe his board.

Round 3 - Miracles
Unsurprisingly, this was a very quick 2-0.

Round 4 - Lands
I almost snap conceded when I saw pairings. Aside from it being the worst possible matchup, my opponent is a very skilled player. Fortunately, I decided to play it out. I scooped game 1 fairly quickly to a Wasteland/Loam lock so that I'd actually have time for post-SB games:
+2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Primeval Titan, +3 Krosan Grip
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Maze of Ith, -3 All Is Dust
[Note: My maindeck is 61 cards and sideboard is 14, which is why it's +7 and -8. Essentially, I preboard Tabernacle in game 1 for the free wins. It's worked very well so far.]
In game 2, I was able to Surgical his Loam very early. My opponent had Dark Depths and Wasteland on board. I played Cloudpost to bait his Wasteland, then responded with Crop Rotation into Thespian's Stage to make my own Marit Lage to kill him on my next turn.
In game 3, I had a slow start after a mulligan but had a T1 Needle naming Wasteland. My opponent didn't have a loam but dropped Revoker naming Expedition Map and proceeded to beat down while I dropped a few Posts. He found Loam and cast Intuition to get Depths, Stage, and Karakas. I gave him Karakas, then Surgicaled his Loam. A topdecked Krosan Grip let me kill Revoker and find Eye of Ugin, which let me find and cast Kozilek, which in turn drew a Candelabra, which in turn let me find and cast Ulamog.
In 3 years of playing the deck, this was my second time ever beating Lands. Both times were against skilled pilots who've top 8ed multiple SCGs with the deck, so I'm quite pleased.

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why no dark depths of your own

why no titans main deck

i would have probably surgicaled dark depths in that game against lands, they don't have a very effective way to kill you out side of marit lage

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Originally Posted by caw_86

why no dark depths of your own

why no titans main deck

i would have probably surgicaled dark depths in that game against lands, they don't have a very effective way to kill you out side of marit lage

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1) I've looked into Depths, but it just doesn't do enough work for me to justify it. It requires a 2-card combo, puts me down 2-lands, and 90% of the time, I'd rather spend two tutors to find Cloudposts or Eye. I just use Stage as a 13th Post that can occasionally double as a Maze of Ith or reset Glacial Chasm.

2) Titan's a great card, but it's not a great fit for my version of the deck. I'm not running blue, so I can't use S&T to cheat it out. And I'm just splashing green, so producing GG is frequently awkward unless I have a Candelabra out. Instead, I have a higher density of cheap tutors to let me find Posts directly in the first few turns. Ancient Stirrings is particularly important; as my deck is about 80% colorless, Ancient Stirrings is better than Brainstorm for my purposes because it lets me see 5 cards instead of 3 for the same cost. Titan is a colored permanent, so I can't grab it with Ancient Stirrings in the mid- or late game, significantly decreasing the utility of some of my most powerful cards. I've actually been seriously considering cutting Titan from the SB for an Oblivion Stone.

3) I conceded game 1 to Wasteland lock. I had to win games 2 and 3. Even if I removed his only serious win condition in Depths, an active Loam engine would have enabled him to easily stall me until time ran out, costing me the match.

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

2) Titan's a great card, but it's not a great fit for my version of the deck. I'm not running blue, so I can't use S&T to cheat it out. And I'm just splashing green, so producing GG is frequently awkward unless I have a Candelabra out. Instead, I have a higher density of cheap tutors to let me find Posts directly in the first few turns. Ancient Stirrings is particularly important; as my deck is about 80% colorless, Ancient Stirrings is better than Brainstorm for my purposes because it lets me see 5 cards instead of 3 for the same cost. Titan is a colored permanent, so I can't grab it with Ancient Stirrings in the mid- or late game, significantly decreasing the utility of some of my most powerful cards. I've actually been seriously considering cutting Titan from the SB for an Oblivion Stone.

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Snow-Post gets around the problem by running Green Sun's Zenith instead of Ancient Stirrings because resolving Primeval Titan in a deck like this is a difficult card for an opponent to catch up to even if they respond to the Trigger with Swords to Plowshares. I've played your deck before and know your deck is closer to Modern Tron or even MUD-Post, so I know why you opt out of it, but at the same time, generally Titan clinches many more games because he finds what you need when you need it.

That being said, while I can understand why you don't play Primeval Titan, Karn Liberated (at least in the side) is a significant threat that opponents have to solve or be stripped from the game. I've played it in MUD-Post, 12-Post, and Modern Tron, and Karn is powerhouse.

Also, if you want to talk about alternate threats than Primeval Titan or even supplements to the Eldrazi, you should look into what MUD-Post decks play.

• Sundering Titan wrecks color intense decks (especially if you want to combo it with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to give yourself Strip Mine and let all your lands tap for mana).
• Steel Hellkite is a 5/5 flying Powder Keg.
• Wurmcoil Engine is one of the best generic beaters because of huge life swings on a big body (although Thragtusk is useful in that spot as well).
• Lodestone Golem is a rare Taxes with legs (although since you're not playing MUD-Post, you may just want to just stick to Sphere of Resistance since the symmetry is harder to tilt).

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird

Snow-Post gets around the problem by running Green Sun's Zenith instead of Ancient Stirrings because resolving Primeval Titan in a deck like this is a difficult card for an opponent to catch up to even if they respond to the Trigger with Swords to Plowshares. I've played your deck before and know your deck is closer to Modern Tron or even MUD-Post, so I know why you opt out of it, but at the same time, generally Titan clinches many more games because he finds what you need when you need it.

That being said, while I can understand why you don't play Primeval Titan, Karn Liberated (at least in the side) is a significant threat that opponents have to solve or be stripped from the game. I've played it in MUD-Post, 12-Post, and Modern Tron, and Karn is powerhouse.

Also, if you want to talk about alternate threats than Primeval Titan or even supplements to the Eldrazi, you should look into what MUD-Post decks play.

• Sundering Titan wrecks color intense decks (especially if you want to combo it with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to give yourself Strip Mine and let all your lands tap for mana).
• Steel Hellkite is a 5/5 flying Powder Keg.
• Wurmcoil Engine is one of the best generic beaters because of huge life swings on a big body (although Thragtusk is useful in that spot as well).
• Lodestone Golem is a rare Taxes with legs (although since you're not playing MUD-Post, you may just want to just stick to Sphere of Resistance since the symmetry is harder to tilt).

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My build definitely has a lower threat density than a lot of lists. Most of the time, this doesn't hinder me too much because I have more ways to find my Eldrazi (more tutors to find Eye of Ugin and Ancient Stirrings to dig deep). But the Primeval Titan in my SB is definitely in a flex slot, and I've been looking at new options.

The main thing I've been considering for that spot lately is Oblivion Stone. A few people at my LGS have taken to playing Dragon Stompy. While K-Grip kills Blood Moon, it doesn't hit Magus of the Moon. I also often need K-Grip to kill Chalice of the Void, as setting it to 1 blanks most of my deck. Usually, the only way I can win this matchup has been to survive long enough to make seven land drops so that I can cast All Is Dust. Exploration is a big help here if I open with it, but it's usually a brick after T2. O-Stone is cheap enough that I can play and activate it before dying to beats and it blows up Chalices too. I figure it's also reasonable against Sneak and Show (which is one of the main reasons I added Titan in the first place), Elves, Goblins, and random decks.

Lodestone Golem is actually a very intriguing idea. Storm has always been my worst matchup besides Lands. It's gotten much, much better since I've gone to my current configuration with 4x Sphere of Resistance. But I'm always looking to improve my odds, since I'm usually going to need to win in 3. And it seems excellent against Elves too.

I've often considered Karn Liberated but never actually tested him. My reasoning for excluding him is that I don't really need much spot removal because All Is Dust wrecks just about everything for the same mana (or less, because the Eye serves as a virtual mana source). What matchups/situations have you found Karn to be particularly useful?

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Originally Posted by sauce

In my experience, this deck has two tough matchups from commonly played decks:

• BUG Delver
• Elves!

Omnitell and MUD are also very bad but thankfully are not commonly played.

I personally would much rather face Burn, ANT & Belcher than BUG delver and Elves.

I think the games that are hardest to win vs BUG delver are the ones where they attack your hand via Thoughseize/Hymn/V.Clique.
If they have any pressure at all to back up the hand disruption, it's almost impossible to win.

Your best bet is to play around LD in the matchup via basics, smart fetching, crop rotations and try to resolve S&T into a Titan.
You will RARELY get to hard cast a Primetime in the BUG Delver matchup due to hand disruption, wastelands and the delver/goyf clock (as well as FoW/daze/Liliana).

I sideboard in: 1 Relic, 1 Revoker (for DRS/liliana/chumping), 1 Moment's peace. I take out 2 Expedition Map and 1 Candelabra (I only run 1) because they are not great at keeping you alive early and also 2 of them grow Goyf by sacrifice. Also they have decays fwiw.

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Bug Delver I'm finding is the worst match up. You want to not play into Daze/Spell Pierce but then you get hit by Hymm to Torach. Needle is a bit overworked since you want to name Wasteland but they also have Liliana and possibly Jace with Abrupt decays.

Elves I think you board in Force of Will and Flusterstorm for Glimpse and Natural Order. Haven't played the match up yet since I just started with this deck a few weeks ago.

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

I've often considered Karn Liberated but never actually tested him. My reasoning for excluding him is that I don't really need much spot removal because All Is Dust wrecks just about everything for the same mana (or less, because the Eye serves as a virtual mana source). What matchups/situations have you found Karn to be particularly useful?

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Mostly control and big stompy decks: MUD, Mirror, decks where pecking at their hand because they let you live too long gives them never ending grief (Miracles comes to mind). He's not as good against decks that consistently win T3 or sooner (burn, Show and Tell, and storm come to mind) unless they stall out and you get a chance to start draining their resources, but that's not always something to bank on.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Work been taxing me hard lately but lately it loosened up. Still no time for weekend events sadly, but with weekly magic being possible I am back to testing and theorycrafting.

Have been looking again at bonfire and testing Kurkesh. Results are intriguing.

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I'm curious if you've ever tried Rings of Brighthearth. I've never tested any build even like what you appear to be trying so I'm just throwing the card out there, but if copying artifact abilities is appealing to you, even at an extra mana, Rings can do all that and more...even allowing corner cases like a double Karakas or Eye of Ugin activation or something.

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

I've often considered Karn Liberated but never actually tested him. My reasoning for excluding him is that I don't really need much spot removal because All Is Dust wrecks just about everything for the same mana (or less, because the Eye serves as a virtual mana source). What matchups/situations have you found Karn to be particularly useful?

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird

Mostly control and big stomy decks: MUD, Mirror, decks where pecking at their hand because they let you live too long gives them never ending grief (Miracles comes to mind). He's not as good against decks that consistently win T3 or sooner (burn, Show and Tell, and storm come to mind) unless they stall out and you get a chance to start draining their resources, but that's not always something to bank on.

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Adding to what Mockingbird said, I find Karn comes in almost all the time. In fact, I've sort of formed a "best friend team" - to steal a term from Elves - of Karn and Ensnaring Bridge. Basically, when one comes in, I almost always bring in the other. Karn is one of the only playable planeswalkers that, bar none, absolutely wins the game if left unchecked. Unlike, say, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Karn's ultimate can be online on his third turn on the board. Our gameplan can be simply put as "take enough turns to cast the things that win the game", so Karn is just one more "thing to cast that wins the game". Your mileage may vary, but I find it to be quite effective.

I've been testing a mini transformational sideboard to improve the BGx matchups, adding Thespian's Stage and Dark Depth to the mix to have another angle of attack and to force opponents to be careful about how to use their wastelands. In my few tests it looks promising.

I lost against Burn and Maverick a few days ago, running the standard Rock-Lee-List (UG build). Only little changes in the SB. Both MU seem to be difficult? Burn uses Price of Progress during my Upkeep when Chasm leaves battlefield, Maverick destroys Pithing Needle with Pridemage and abuses Knight of the R. to fetch Wastelands / Karakas :-/ Any ideas for SB - improvement?

Has anyone ever tried to play the UG Post build versus affinity? My friend and I had some playtest matches before a tournament where we paired in the final round. Overall between sideboarded matches I think it was affinity 4 UG post 1.

It's essentially 12 must interact with threats while you try to assemble show and tell anything. glacial chasm shuts off the aggro plan, but tezzerator just trumps clasm.

One sideboarded game, I had pithing needle on cranial playing, Krosan grip for a ravager and then took 18 from a tez ultimate lol!

My SB at the moment is:

4x Force of Will
3x Swan Song
1x Pithing Needle
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Flusterstorm
1x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Krosan Grip

@ Burn: I have a very high win % against burn and the way I defend is by only getting chasm in response to PoP. I find a crop, and hold it and a green up, for the entire game. I'll mull to it sometimes. Meanwhile I guiltlessly pile up GPs to stay afloat until landing a Titan. You typically shouldn't have to chasm so early that it's hard to recover. If SnT is there, great. I board in 4x Force of Will, 2 Fluster, 1 BEB and sometimes Grip if I see Vortex.

@ Maverick: This is a tougher MU but luckily it's rare/a bad deck. I play 3 needle in the 75 and that's a great card. Otherwise fetch out all basics and try and assemble SnT Titan. They usually don't have much pressure. So sitting with uncracked fetches until hardcast Titan isn't a terrible plan. But as you found, needle is no crutch in the MU. Moments peace is great, but your best cards are basic lands and SnT. I bring in 4x Force, 2 Grip, 1 Needle.

@ Affinity: Affinity is a very easy MU, but you're right Tezz Affinity is much different. First, turn 3 SnT almost always out races them. Otherwise, for the aggro plan (all hyper aggro really) I just hold green and crop up for the whole game to avoid big turns, get chasm and move on. For Tezz I always name him with needle, even before I see him. Otherwise ill board in force just for him - he's a very tough card for us to beat. All other cards don't really matter they're pretty weak. Moments peace is again great here too. I like to bring in 4x Force, 2x Grip, 2x EE, and 1 Needle.

These MUs are all very winnable, even before board choices. They just have more specific paths with the MD cards.

For me I like to play 3 total Needle and always board Force of Will. They may not be pinpoint tech against the format, but they really go a long way to beat Janky Teir 2 decks that have one random set of cards that can give you trouble out of nowhere.

What I am having trouble with is Food Chain - anyone else?

So I finally read all 108 pages and I'm ready to post my first post in the post thread! (Say that 3 times fast)
Hey everyone. Been playing magic for about a year but only legacy for a few months. I can't get enough of this deck; it really is a blast to play and this thread has been immensely helpful. Rock lee you are a celebrity to me.
If anyone is curious, "is this deck playable without candelabra" was asked about 8 times.
I've been screen shotting and trying everyone's list as I go along. So far I've been playing with a pretty stock UG list. Looking forward to your next build rock!

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

What I am having trouble with is Food Chain - anyone else?

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Phyrexian Revoker the Food Chain. It's also one of the few decks where you'll get the chance to Mindbreak Trap Emrakul because Misthollow Griffin has to be cast so many times.

I haven't run into it much, but I've played around with it after Rock Lee lost T2 against it's godhand of T2 Emrakul at a major event. In all honesty it's pretty close to us being a control deck that sometimes explodes a lot sooner than anyone was expecting. So right now I treat it like a mirror match: choke their mana (instead of Cloudpost, Food Chain), then grind better than they grind back.

P.S. The most annoying aspect of Food Chain is Force of Will has the perfect blue card to exile, which makes it more utility than control unlike every other deck that plays Force that I can recall.

G1 vs Food chain is almost always a loss. You can win G1 w/ quick Titan into hardcast Emrakul though (obv.)
SB games is where Phyrexian revoker, FoW/Swan song and K-Grip shine. Only spell that matters is the namesake enchantment.
I have had success vs it personally while repealing their Noble hierarchs and Deathrites aggressively so they don't have mana advantage and dudes in play in case they drop Food chain.
Also, once they are threatening to go off by having a dude in play and access to 3 mana, you need to have your answers (counterspell, k-grip or repeal on dude to buy a turn.)

As a food chain player I would like to point out that there are some different version of the deck: the most prominent, which is also the oldest, is the one aiming to combo off as fast as possible, thus playing cards like fierce empath and Æthersnipe which are "bad" cards if food chain isn't in play.

The other version is the value build, which opts to play some number of cascades to assemble a critical mass of creatures and value (ancestral vision, manipulate fate) that can win you the game even without food chain.

The former is better at comboing, but food chain combo is slow for legacy and its B plan (aka creatures) is significanly worse. The latter, while having less probabilities to combo because it has to draw naturally both food chain and a fatty, is instad packed with good creatures (shardless, bloodbraid, DRS, vendilion) and it's more like a value deck that can win on the spot if it hits the combo (and even having only griffins and food chain in play it's almost a win).

If you face the first build you can win as you can manage food chain, but if you face the value build you can be trampled by the pure mass of creatures even without them casting food chain.

Has anyone tried Summoning Trap in this deck? Seems like a flashed in Eldrazi or primetime would be pretty good.

Could be considered primetime 5-8?

Never tried the Trap. I think a) it's difficult to find a slot for it, and b) there a only 6 creatures in the deck, so it could often fizzle

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Originally Posted by Postman

Never tried the Trap. I think a) it's difficult to find a slot for it, and b) there a only 6 creatures in the deck, so it could often fizzle

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For arguments sake top and brainstorm help it out a bit.

Top, Brainstorms, Titans are great cards themselves, but a single Trap needs other cards to be good ;-)

BTW : take a look at See the Unwritten from Khans of Tarkir, looks at 8 cards