[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorpT

This is very similar to what I'm running. Very similar in deed. I absolutely love it. I'm still not sure about going with a 3cmc vs a 2cmc in your Nighthawk slot just to keep my Vial active the whole game, but that's up in the air.



Testing against sealed pools and SoM block decks doesn't count.

There is no way a pile like that is doing anything against real decks. Let's see what problems there are:

Phyrexian Crusader in a non-Poison deck. Check.
Lillian Vess. Check
18 Land in a deck with Vess and plenty of 3 drops. Check.
1 whole Scrubland in a deck that wants to cast white spells. Check.
Sign in Blood. Check.
Beseech the Queen. Check.
No Bob. Check.
Random Singletons. Check.

There's no fixing this deck without starting over. It looks like a pile of the Black and White cards you had laying around. If you want to send me a decklist for approval, feel free, but don't be surprised when I tell you it's bad.

---

Phyrexian Crusader- May not be the best call. He" pro red and white. Seams good to me
Liliana Vess- It's a 2of. You play her late game. Why is she bad again??
18 land- You have 3 draw spells and 3 tutor spells. Then you have 4 Squadron Hawks and if 1 hit's the table he thins you deck by 3 more cards. Seams good to me
1 Scrubland- I guess you never lost to Wasteland. You must be the only play that hasn't. Some day you'll understand tho
Sign in blood- It's draw you 2 cards. That's good isn't it? How many cards do you draw off Bob? Maybe one because someone always kills him.
Random Singlrtons- You play tutors go get it.

Don't tell me that the deck can't win. That a bunch of BULLSHIT. You people need to try new ideas.

@Goyf

as I ran no Vial i don't see the big advantage in splashing a third color, wasteland is in BW annoying enough (yes I know how good Goyf is, as I play on regular base against it). I for myself play around with Jötun Grunt atm. playing 2-3 in Main would open some sideboardslots that are designated to gravahate.

@Nighthawk

I wouldn't dare cutting him, he won me so many games, he lets you stabilize on really low life maybe having Bob out, kills every Creature without Firststrike and Power 3 and has flying.

@Phyrexian Crusader

In the "The Gate"-Thread was that Creature discussed some Pages long. Didn't made the cut in it. I see it in Deadguy similar. You don't want your Opponent at end of game on 9 Poison and 1 Life (worst case but who cares). He's in 90% a Wall of Denial without flying that will be killed by most Goyfs. Great

@Mirran Crusader

Mentionend him right after he was spoiled in here but he sits in the same spot as Nighthawk and Nighthawk is in my eyes far more versatile and fullfiles way more roles in the deck than Mirran could. Additionally with the Swords you need to hit the Player, which you can't garanty at most times. But as always, you need to test it in your meta.

@the Pharmacist

if you try to avoid Wasteland you play no Nonbasics, not one. Why one Scrubland, i find no reason in it.
Sign vs Bob = 0:1, Bob has drawn me an insane amount of cards, singlehandly killed opponents and can carry equipment. If you are worried that it get killed, play Dark Tutelage or Phyrexian Arena. He is not for nothing one of the most played Cards in Black
Beseech: I find Tutors outside from Combo or the Trinketmage-Toolbox a bit odd, never wished to had one during play
btw. for what exactly do you play reanimate?

If you would give us some insight in your choices and your overall gameplan you would get more serious and helpful answers, but at the moment i can unterstand CorpT cause it looked like he said it, a pile of white and black Cards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Pharmacist

Phyrexian Crusader- May not be the best call. He" pro red and white. Seams good to me
Liliana Vess- It's a 2of. You play her late game. Why is she bad again??
18 land- You have 3 draw spells and 3 tutor spells. Then you have 4 Squadron Hawks and if 1 hit's the table he thins you deck by 3 more cards. Seams good to me
1 Scrubland- I guess you never lost to Wasteland. You must be the only play that hasn't. Some day you'll understand tho
Sign in blood- It's draw you 2 cards. That's good isn't it? How many cards do you draw off Bob? Maybe one because someone always kills him.
Random Singlrtons- You play tutors go get it.

Don't tell me that the deck can't win. That a bunch of BULLSHIT. You people need to try new ideas.

---

You play Phyrexian Crusader cause you like the Protection of colors, why not just play Stillmoon Cavalier instead? Pro black/white makes it pretty good, also can have evasion. But then again it gets bolted. However it gets bolted just as much as Crusader gets whacked by Smother/For the Throat/Any other removal. Both also fight for spot with Vampire Nighthawk, which has evasion built in.

What are you using Lilianna Vess for? Turn 6 discard? Turn 7 tutor? Does this even sound good? There is better tutors and better dicard than this shaff.

If you are playing around Wasteland, you might as well go play standard. You are weaking your deck because you don't want a wasteland to blow up a land. If you play the Stifle-Proof mana base mentioned a while back, its pretty sturdy, and should be a little more Wasteland resilant. I think you need to just admit that the reason your not playing the set of scrublands is cause you don't have them.

Squadron Hawk is good, but i don't think you know why. "Thins your deck, wah wah wah". I have a problem with this for two reasons. People who are smarter than me have done the math that shows "Thinning your deck" isn't as good as you'd think. Besdies the fact most people thin their deck of lands (a commoditiy that you need earlier in the game, not as much at the end) to get to their business. You are adding in a creature that really is suboptial but gives you multiple flying threats, which is why its good, not the fact it thins your deck.

And really saying that Bob will only get you 1 card, and sign in blood is better, shows that you've never played with bob.

Playing Sign in blood is like playing cancel when counterspell exists. Regardless of the fact that 98% of the time Bob and phrexian arena are better options, theres even Night's Whisper to make sign in blood obsolete.

Also Beseech the queen? Again its like playing cancel since grim tutor exists.

And lilian vess is just terrible. If you want a 4cc planswalker bomb elspeth is defiantly the way to go.

Its not even a matter of not testing things. There are just infinity better options than the cards you have chosen.

As for phyrexian crusader, I didn't read the discussion on the gate, but I have read much of that thread to know that it is indeed a similar idea to this one. So if its not worth it there it probably isn't here either.

Ok, I'm not saying Pharmacist has developed the end-all be-all dead guy list, but when's the last time dead guy top-8'ed a major event? Is it time for someone to think outside the box? sometimes you have to work through the stupid cards and the "chaff" (not shaff) to find that golden nugget that simply wins games.

I'm sorry, but I just playtested the pharmasist list against reanimator and won by tutoring up sign in bloods and nighthawks with liliana vess while he had an archon and iona on the table. Sign in Blood is a direct damage spell OR draw against a lot of decks and can simply get you there in close games....but I guess there are no close games in legacy *rolls eyes*. If you play duals and fetches in a deck that only runs one or 2 plains there is no reason not to run sign in blood over night's whisper - it's simply a better card.

As for the bob vs Sign in blood comparison...if you really want you can play hawks and mystics and bob and just loose to firespout if you want - have fun with that. Honestly, you have to plan on seeing firespout and you simply cannot plan on making ANYONE discard it because of the pressense of Jace 2.0, Brainstorm and Top. Against a good Multi-color control player the deck simply folds without generating some sort of card advantage that doesn't depend on a 2/2 hanging out for multiple turns. If nothing else, sign in blood can ensure a turn 3 land drop and draw into things like Thoughtseize or duress. Sure Bob will *just win games* against people that don't bother with removal...but honestly against those people you can win with a grizly bear too.

As for Vess - she's a win con, a tutor, AND discard. She's a freaking house. if nothing else she's a tutor or discard and a fog as people swing wildly at her to try and keep you from just ending the game. Sure she's 5 mana...and there's 2 in the deck. Look at the Dead-guy list...it's control. Control needs a finisher. She doesn't die to swords, firestorm or any of the dominant removal in the format and she just ends games...plus she enables tool-box approaches for singleton cards to get you out of tight spots.

I love the beseech vs grim tutor comment - again, if you run duals and fetches in a deck that only runs one non-black land why is grim tutor better than Beseech? because beseec $0.10 and cheap cards don't win games? lol - as for whether tutors belong in a deck like dead-guy...who knows. I mean tool-boxes have been used successfully in non-combo legacy decks for ages...let me think of a good example...well, I guess Stoneforge mystic must suck too because he's a tutor for non-combo. I guess stuff like wish boards don't work either. And Green Sun's Zenith must also suck. Give me a break. Bottom line, tutors are used to enable consistency and provide outs to difficult situations - IN ANY DECK. Just because noone is doing it in Dead Guy right now doesn't mean it's right to ignore it - again, when's the last time dead guy top 8'ed?

And Reanimate is a house when you run 10 discard spells too...Reanimate Thrun or Iona just once and all of a sudden it doesn't seem like such an odd choice. The beauty behind the 2-of in a tool-box approach is that it won't really even hurt you in a game against combo or something where reanimate isn't optimal....because it's just 2 cards.

again...not saying that everyone should run out and spend $5 on a set of beseech and vess (LOL) but honestly - why dismiss something so completely out of hand without at least looking at the card selection and asking questions first...or even going through the motions of loading it onto a program that can goldfish hands for you? Dismissing new ideas is how a deck stagnates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bokwinkle

As for the bob vs Sign in blood comparison...if you really want you can play hawks and mystics and bob and just loose to firespout if you want - have fun with that. Honestly, you have to plan on seeing firespout and you simply cannot plan on making ANYONE discard it because of the pressense of Jace 2.0, Brainstorm and Top. Against a good Multi-color control player the deck simply folds without generating some sort of card advantage that doesn't depend on a 2/2 hanging out for multiple turns. If nothing else, sign in blood can ensure a turn 3 land drop and draw into things like Thoughtseize or duress. Sure Bob will *just win games* against people that don't bother with removal...but honestly against those people you can win with a grizly bear too.

---

Bob is the best creature in the format. You're underestimating the power of SoFI and/or SoFF +Stoneforge with Mother of Runes and Bob. That's a total of 10 ways to protect your Bob against a Firespout, and that's not even counting the 8-10 discard spells. It's not even just dekcs that don't bother with removal, but all the decks that only give 4 slots for spot removal. What if they don't draw one of those 4? Bob reads "kill me or win." Plus, once you drop an equipment, you can turn him into a serious threat, even a "protection from Jace and Firespout" threat with SoFI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bokwinkle

Ok, I'm not saying Pharmacist has developed the end-all be-all dead guy list, but when's the last time dead guy top-8'ed a major event? Is it time for someone to think outside the box? sometimes you have to work through the stupid cards and the "chaff" (not shaff) to find that golden nugget that simply wins games.

---

Indy and San Jose? Seriously?

Beseech the Queen means you can't play Bob. I really don't think I should have to defend Bob on a competitive Legacy forum.

Good luck playing garbage decks. The deck is clearly playing sub-par cards. Maybe create a new thread somewhere else to discuss the amazing Beseech the Queen card. It has nothing to do with thinking outside the box or not testing. These are sub-par cards. If we had to test every single card, we'd still be working our way through Visions. Instead, we discard chaff and focus on good cards.

I was just about to mention this Greenpoe. Mom+Swords. And the deck DOES have win conditions. It has Nighthawk equiped and Serra Avenger Equiped. Once Equiped they both are out of Firespout range. If they get it off before you equip them, you still have Mom to keep them alive until you can get it.

You said yourself, tutors are great, thats what SFM is in here for. It tutors up the tool to get the job done.

Liliana tutor is horrible. You have to put it on the TOP of your library. And who really is thinking on turn 6 "Man i wish i had a discard spell" The list that you played was it his exact list? Or did you tweak the mana-base some? Cause that'd be the place where i would start.

CorpT, we have our disagreements sometimes, like when we're discussing a certain mono-black midrange deck, but you do play plenty, more than me, and I totally agree with you on this. And I don't even play the deck, which means I'm relying on theorycraft, which means that said deck fails at the theorycraft point, let alone playtesting.

Goblins is a deck that has arguably much better options for cheating the curve than this one. The low count on lands for that deck is 21 - 17 if you don't count Wasteland. The average is 22. That is a deck packing Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, and Goblin Warchief. To sum it up, you need more lands than that.
You're playing Vess in Legacy. Here's the thing: all of the planeswalkers have really good abilities, period. It's their cost that is prohibitive. If you gave me Vess at 3 or even 4 mana I would ride the Legacy train with her all night long. But she costs 5. She's competing with cards that are cheated into play, or are able to leverage such internal synergy, that they win the game or turn it around. Vess is neither of those two. The CA she provides is subpar, her ultimate is subpar, and her tutor ability is (guess what) subpar! In Standard, she may be worth it, extended, even. But she does not make the cut here.
Phyrexian Crusader, even in a non-poison deck, is something that I may understand. It's a house against Zoo, Goblins, and 4c Counterbalance. And it provides a decent (if slow) win-con. The problem is, they'll find a way to deal with it. After you've swung 3 or 4 times. And then you'll topdeck a non-poison creature. So, after a protracted resource battle, they still have 20 life, and you don't. You are now in the losing position. And don't say "but Vess tutors up a second!" because you do not run subpar cards to justify this need. That combo is nowhere near synergistic enough to warrant that.
Deck thinning has been debunked. If you can't deal, then happily run a subpar deck.
And I will happily report you for trolling if you cannot provide a well thought out and lengthy answer for the following question:
How is Sign in Blood a superior card than Dark Confidant? Let alone within the confines of this deck, how is Sign in Blood ever the competitive option when Bob is available?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Parax

I was just about to mention this Greenpoe. Mom+Swords. And the deck DOES have win conditions. It has Nighthawk equiped and Serra Avenger Equiped. Once Equiped they both are out of Firespout range. If they get it off before you equip them, you still have Mom to keep them alive until you can get it.

You said yourself, tutors are great, thats what SFM is in here for. It tutors up the tool to get the job done.

Liliana tutor is horrible. You have to put it on the TOP of your library. And who really is thinking on turn 6 "Man i wish i had a discard spell" The list that you played was it his exact list? Or did you tweak the mana-base some? Cause that'd be the place where i would start.

---

I agree SFM is great, and I find it hillarious that a guy that said tutors are worthless in everything but combo was playing a maindeck tutor and bullet package.

After a multitude of fishing I tweaked the mana base and subbed some duress for verdicts to up my 1cmc spells and make my curve more realistic. I also did things like immediately ditching Beseech...lol. But after testing I understood WHY it was in there, which I couldn't figure out from fishing or just looking at the list. My point though was that I made plenty of use of Lilliana and sign in blood. I'd like to see the current dead guy lists find a way to play through archon and iona...

Again, not saying the list is optimaly, but I just don't understand how people can be so quick to dismiss ANY idea. Frankly if I can take a couple hours to test the deck without Bob I find it hard to believe that other people can't do the same. And we aren't testing every card in the format - we're testing what - 5 cards?

As for liliana - her tutor is great. Dead guy is control, getting to turn 6 isn't all that uncommon and getting exactly what you need to win at that point is helpful. Plus if you can do combat math you can quickly figure out if they need to swing out at Liliana or if you're just asking to be swung through and killed. She's a fantastic card...but again, not something I'd play with bob....so you have to start there. However, if you want to talk about late game tutor being useless...how about late game draw? If you play discard on turns 1 and 2, removal on turn 3...Bob doesn't see the board until turn 4 and doesn't draw you cards until turn 5, it isn't until turn 6 until he draws you the 2 cards that sign in blood gets you....and all that is without ANY cards to actually protect bob. If you play your protection before you play bob then you don't discard as much, or take more damage from creatures as you attempt to set-up...meaning bob's damage from his draw hurts even more.

I guess if you feel like you simply cannot play without bob then you need to drastically limit the card pool you use and therefor hamstring your deck and force an auto-loose to counterbalance strategies and a host of other issues. Bob is a great card - there's a reason he's expensive and played, but his use immediately restricts your options...which is fine if you don't want to do a lot of testing and tuning. But I thought this was the thread where testing and tuning was discussed...I guess the reality is that this is the thread where we all just talk about how great bob is...lol

Dead Guy in it's orign is based on mana denial, combined with the best discard in the format (thoughtseize and Hymn), combined with the best removal in the format (swords and Vindicate)...I think we can all agree with that premise. land destruction has become worse as a strategy in Legacy for a host of reasons so everyone is struggling to figure out what fills that void, while still maintaining the best discard with the best removal and maintaining the competitive edge.

In the deck's original form there was no need to protect bob because the land destruction and discard did it for you. Since the land destruction isn't viable and discard alone can't consistently protect bob alone most lists run a host of cards that are dedicated to protecting Bob - Mom, SoFI, SoFF, SFM, etc. I could make a case that these choices have even forced vial. Running cards to protect bob does not win you the game. Bob does NOT win you the game all on his own (despite people's comments)...he needs backup, the cards that he draws are what wins the game. When you include 10-20 cards to protect bob all you do is protect bob so that you can draw more cards to protect bob (taking damage the entire time).

What pharmacist has done is taken bob out the formulae in an attempt to still use the best discard and removal in the format and open the deck up to other options. With that in mind, his approach makes sense - some of his card choices are suspect, I agree, but reconsidering the approach to the deck is not wrong.

the thing is, I tested alot without Bob, in every Deck I made that was B(xxx). Simply cause I didn't have them and didn't want to spend the money, cause I thought it was overrated. After lending some from a friend and some testing in the Net I realized just how good he is. And yes, to play Bob dedicates how the rest of the Deck looks. But in my opinion he's worth it, he generates drastic CA+can swing for damage (with the high count on removal in the deck he connects quite often).

If you want to play more slowly/have a higher Curve you could play Arena. 1 Mana more, but far more resilient and lower lifeloss on high Curve's (flipping Tombstalker, Persecutor, FoW or Else sucks with Bob ;) ). That would be a viable option in my eyes, especially when you want to stall the game out. Would make Liliana better too, but you need to find ways to keep the whole Bunch of Aggro in check.

Why can Deadguy not play around Blazing Archon? We have plenty of Removal, for Iona the same but in two colours, if you have much Reanimator (here in Germany is not much Reanimator left, after MT-Bann, as I read) and fear her, add some Gravehate/Runed Halo/Brittle Effigy...


PS: Yes I failed on the Tutor-thing, I was just back from work and tired, shame on me

Dead guy can play around archon - can you play around archon AND iona (naming white) on the board at the same time in game one? Good luck. Isolated incident...but still, I'm just trying to make a point that Sign in Blood and Lilliana are versatile cards that can get you out of pickle situations that stuff like Bob simply cannot.

One of my qualms with bob or Arena type effects is that they are easily dealt with by maindecked cards throughout the format and generally slow to yeild their CA - ESPECIALLY in dead-guy, because we really want to be landing our discard spells in the early turns when it matters most - not trying to resolve draw spells and make them stick to gain their advantage.

If the deck was aggro and it's goal was turn 1 Vial or Mom into turn 2 bob every game then things would be different. But if that is the goal then why do we run 7-8 removal spells and 8-10 discards spells? Generally I feel as though people are trying to force this deck into a counter-aggro strategy, trying to use discard spells as the countermagic - which doesn't work because discard is not a reactive control tactic...it's a proactive control tactic.

PS: I forgive you on the tutor thing...but it was funny.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakofried

... And I will happily report you for trolling if you cannot provide a well thought out and lengthy answer for the following question:

How is Sign in Blood a superior card than Dark Confidant? Let alone within the confines of this deck, how is Sign in Blood ever the competitive option when Bob is available?

---

Sorry I missed this.

The hope it gets there approach:
T1: Discard
T2: Discard
T3: Vindicate
T4: Bob
T5: Draw a card from bob (assuming they didn't have removal)
T6: Draw Second card from bob (again, assuming they didn't have removal)

The "what about bob" approach:
T1: Vial
T2: Discard, Mom off vial
T3: Discard, Bob off Vial
T4: Draw a card from bob
T5: Draw a card from bob

Sign In blood:
T1: Discard
T2: Discard
T3: Vindicate
T4: Threat
T5: SiB, Threat

Sign in Blood alternate:
T1: Discard - Oh snap I'm playing against ANT!
T2: Discard
T3: threat
T4: Threat, SiB my opponent

The difference? With sign in blood I could inflict direct damage to a tendrils player faster OR play threats faster in the early turns rather than just setting up my draw spells. While you're using your turns to set up your draw engine with Bob, SiB allows you to use your turns to set up your win condition or simply apply pressure to your opponent.

Feel free to report me for suggesting that new ideas be playtested....lol.

Archon + Iona (white) = depends on what you hold, if Sword + Black Removal shoot down Iona first, sword Archon, only an Edict, play it and see what happes ;) when you dont have removal, throw out an Gatekeeper or Nighthawk, does the same. Don't see where this gets any more complicated as Deadguy is more capable of dealing with creatures than most decks^^ (Iona on black is in my opinion far more worse as you can play nothing but Swords)


The 2 damage on an Opponent are nice, but with Sorceryspeed its not good enough i think. In Instant it would be so great to fuck the Comboplayer who goes with AdNauseam to 2, but in Sorcery its subpar. And giving an Opponent (especially Comboplayer) 2 Cards for 2 Lifepoints is something, i wouldn't be happy about.

And the Argument that with Bob is easily dealt, doesn't go so well. Goyf is easily removed too. Doesn't bother all the Goyfplayers. Same goes for the vast amount of Critters. SiB lies full on CB, Spellsnare... its the same

See....but that's the point, Goyf is not easilly dealt with - he doesn't roll over to firespout. Also the decks that he goes in are either threat heavy (a bunch of little aggro dudes) or counter heavy. He's usually at least a 3/4, and a 4/5 or 5/6 isn't all that uncommon, and he is the win condition, not a guy that might go find the win condition. When you pool your rescources to protect your draw spells you inherently have less room for resources that protect your win condition. I don't want to protect my draw spell, I want to protect my win con - my goal is not to draw cards, my goal is to win games.

I'm not saying that Bob is bad because "he dies to removal" I hate that argument -that's a dumb argument and I agree. I'm saying that the likelyhood of you gaining benefit from bob hinges on the fact that he won't die to removal in a late game situation - or you have to all but abandon the discard first strategy of dead-guy to take advantage of him. It's just counter-intuitive.

Bokwinkle, you're saying that you have to choose between discard and playing Bob? That's like saying 4c CB has to choose between going aggro or control. The reality is that for many decks, you do have to choose between being the control player vs. the aggro player. Even Goblins sometimes has to resort to the control role (that's why they play Port). You say that you're relying on Bob not to die to removal in the lategame, but that's like saying Jace decks rely on Jace not to die after 2 turns. If you're staring down Jace or Bob, you have to kill it or they'll just mow you down in CA. Plus, Deadguy is fantastic at protecting Bob (again, discard+Mom+equipment package). It sounds like your basic argument is that Bob is too slow, but compare it to Eva Green. Eva Green is faster with a strong early/mid game while Deadguy thrives more toward the mid/late game (because of the equipment), but even Eva Green runs Bob. Heck, the most successful Affinity build I ever ran played Bob, and in that deck, you would often win by turn 3 or 4, but on the games you didn't, you generally had a weak hand OR a hand with a win-con that got countered/killed. Bob would either suck up a counter/removal that would hit Cranial Plating/Master of Etherium/etc., or he'd draw me cards so I could re-establish a win-condition. Even Vintage combo decks play Bob.

My favorite part is the argument that Sign in Blood can shock someone but disregarding the fact that Bob can attack. It can even do 2 damage without letting the opponent draw cards! How novel!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorpT

My favorite part is the argument that Sign in Blood can shock someone but disregarding the fact that Bob can attack. It can even do 2 damage without letting the opponent draw cards! How novel!

---

So you attack with Bob? It must be nice to be able to play Bob and have it never die. Then your opponents must never play men because you can swing with him too.

This will be my last post in this thread for 2 reasons

1st no one in this thread wants to try new things

Edited. Threats of violence towards other members, joking or otherwise, are absolutely not tolerated here. Consider this an official warning. - zilla

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Pharmacist

So you attack with Bob? It must be nice to be able to play Bob and have it never die. Then your opponents must never play men because you can swing with him too.

This will be my last post in this thread for 2 reasons

1st no one in this thread wants to try new things

2nd If I keep reading CorpT post, I may really have to beat the shit out of him.

---

It's more the fact that your arguments are pretty weak and your card choices are so far out there that it is actually difficult to take them seriously. Have you actually posted results with your build? A tournament report or something?

The question I have with this thread is: if the Tarmogoyf splash is so good, why aren't we just playing Junk instead? It seems like a case of being a bad version of another deck, rather than an actual separate strategy.

@Pharmacist

Would be cool if you would explain your choices and strategy, rather than posting a pile and sayin its good and won games. Look how Bokwinkle does it, he ARGUES, nothing seen from you, that looks like you try too


I don't think Goyf is this huge in Deadguy, with Percy and Grunt we have strong Beater that smoke him up

Dark Confidant is probably the best creature in the format. If your deck can afford to run him (due to not too punishing an average CMC, and overal synergy) and doesn't, chances are astonishingly high that you built it wrong - that is, with suboptimal cards in it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greenpoe

Bokwinkle, you're saying that you have to choose between discard and playing Bob? That's like saying 4c CB has to choose between going aggro or control. The reality is that for many decks, you do have to choose between being the control player vs. the aggro player. Even Goblins sometimes has to resort to the control role (that's why they play Port). You say that you're relying on Bob not to die to removal in the lategame, but that's like saying Jace decks rely on Jace not to die after 2 turns. If you're staring down Jace or Bob, you have to kill it or they'll just mow you down in CA. Plus, Deadguy is fantastic at protecting Bob (again, discard+Mom+equipment package). It sounds like your basic argument is that Bob is too slow...

---

Yes, this is where I'm going...sort of. My argument is that I have to make the decision between aggro and control, but bob is good at neither in this particular deck. I know this sounds rediculous since Bob is obviously a good card that does some wonderful things and I make it sound like he's just not good at all...but that's not my intent. I'll give a situation:

I need to be the aggro deck:

I run out bob early (turn 2 or something) to force some aggro following a T1 Thoughtseize. Now, I have a bear to beat with that may draw me some cards. However, what i draw is one of 4 things - Protection for my bear, discard, removal, or Land. You see, bob is not a win-con. Playing an early bob just puts me in a situation where I can try and force control harder...it doesn't signficantly advance me into an aggressive board position.

If I need to be the control deck:

I run out my discard and removal early and the play bob late (turn 4 or 5 or something). My opponent has seen between 11 and 20 cards (depending on match-up) in order to get the one piece of removal he needs before I can establish the protection for bob.

Now, if I'm playing against an aggressive deck I'm probably facing down a board of creatures and my life total is probably already depleated from attacks and/or thoughtseize, so ripping any 2+ CMC card from bob is goign to suck pretty hard, so bob puts me in a pickle to play a very close game - even getting thoughtseize is a lighting bolt.... If i'm playing against a control deck then chances are they have found at least one piece of removal, meaning I won't be seeing the extra cards I need to fight a top-deck war against a deck with better card quality.

You see when I play SiB over bob I also gain all of the spots in the deck that are currently being used to protect bob - so I can make the deck more threat dense and versatile and get more garunteed draw of those cards regardless of what my opponent is playing - putting me in a better situation to play either aggro OR control. With bob I have basically one choice - protect bob.

As for CorpT, the argument is not that SiB is better than Bob because it can shock. The argument is that SiB is better than Night's Whisper because it can shock. The argument that SiB is situationally better than bob is because you're garunteed 2 cards for less life loss with no worry about the fragility of the creature - therefore opening your deck up for more options - and that is only a very miniscule part of the argument. If you didn't have such a financial and emmotial tie to any particular card, and an insistence that you're deck is the end-all be-all of Dead-Guy lists then you could actually take a couple minutes to read the posts.

As to Pharmacist's non-responsiveness regarding his list. He posted it looking for input. Not all people have the disposition to sit and argue card choices with people that regard them as idiots before they even evaluate the deck. Sometimes people are just going to get pissed off and leave. He offered the ideas, what everyone does with them is what separates winning players from people who just play the same list week after week into mediocrity.

This thread is the most viewed active thread on the source among established lists, and yet the changes in the list are minimal at best. there is so much time and man-power here that it's not unreasonable to question EVERYTHING. Obviously starting with questioning Bob is tough nut - there is noone posting here that doesn't think the card is fantastic. Force of will is good too...but it doesn't belong in every blue deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bokwinkle

As for CorpT, the argument is not that SiB is better than Bob because it can shock. The argument is that SiB is better than Night's Whisper because it can shock. The argument that SiB is situationally better than bob is because you're garunteed 2 cards for less life loss with no worry about the fragility of the creature - therefore opening your deck up for more options - and that is only a very miniscule part of the argument. If you didn't have such a financial and emmotial tie to any particular card, and an insistence that you're deck is the end-all be-all of Dead-Guy lists then you could actually take a couple minutes to read the posts.

---

I have no idea what you're talking about. I have no financial or emotional tie to anything in the deck. I am perfectly willing to try new things. I'm not willing to try obviously sub-par cards.

Here's my problem with SiB. When I want CA, I want lots of CA. SiB doesn't do that. For 2 mana, it draws you one extra card. With Bob, not only can I Vial it in for 0 mana (at end of turn no-less to dodge some removal), but it keeps drawing me cards.

Let's look at real MUs instead of hypothetical aggro or control MUs.

CB/Top: This is where Bob is the best. No question. After Vial, Bob is the card I want to land against CB. They have some CA, but we can have as much or more. CA is what wins this MU. SiB is barely CA. Bob is real CA. And can be Vialed in.

Goblins: This is another grind. They can explode, but it doesn't happen as often as people make it out to be. Most of the time it's a Ringleader grind. Guess what, CA is good in a grind. SiB looks pretty stupid when compared to Ringleader. Additionally, Bob can block and kill a Piledriver. Yes, they can kill it, but getting 1 card isn't the answer. Sticking one and getting lots of cards is.

Combo: These are difficult to lump together, but the general idea is to get hate and then a quick clock. Bob doesn't exactly shine here, but neither does SiB. My ideal start to a combo MU is a Vial into Thoughtseize/Wasteland. Outside of that, it's Thoughtseize into some beats. Dark Confidant isn't the best here, but it is a beater that provides more beaters or hate.

Rock: Again, CA is the key here. Yes, Bob dies. But if/when it doesn't, it wins games.

I think that's the point that everyone is trying to make. Bob wins games when he sticks. So, if they have removal, you spent either a turn with Vial or 2 mana and they spent some amount of mana and a card. Usually that's a fair trade. But if they don't have removal, the card drawing will enable you to win. I have no idea how or why you think Bob isn't a win condition. He certainly lets me win games. CA wins games. SiB draws one whole extra card for 2 mana. That doesn't win games.

ok, assuming you see SiB in the Spot of Bob, reducing the total Creaturecount to 12 (?) (Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, and?)

i would like to see a list, that would be much better to discuss, cause we both construct here examples in our favor, getting no step forward^^

Ok, after doing some research on the recent (January) winning deadguy lists that CorpT so kindly point out there are a few things I want to point out (that many of you may already know).

First: The winning lists are no longer running mass discard...no Hymn, only Thoughtseize, and maybe a couple of IoK's and perhaps a couple of duress in the board. So instead of the 8-10 that the list originally ran, now they run 4-6 1cmc discard spells.

Next: Sinkhole has been replaced by wasteland - which makes perfect sense.

Last: with the ellimination of sinkhole and discard from the lists they now run 20+ creatures (Mom, Bob, Serra Avenger Or Nighthawk, SfM, and Sculler). It's an aggro list - which as I said above, is good for bob. He's good in a threat-dense deck, because you can turn him sideways and his draws can accellerate you into aggro. Also the ellimination of hymn means that T2 is reserved for bob and forcing aggro strategem. It's clean, simple aggro - and it's nowhere near the original decklist...but it wins.

I guess I'm just not satisfied with Pure Aggro and I still have a desire to play Hymn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bokwinkle

Ok, after doing some research on the recent (January) winning deadguy lists that CorpT so kindly point out there are a few things I want to point out (that many of you may already know).

First: The winning lists are no longer running mass discard...no Hymn, only Thoughtseize, and maybe a couple of IoK's and perhaps a couple of duress in the board. So instead of the 8-10 that the list originally ran, now they run 4-6 1cmc discard spells.

Next: Sinkhole has been replaced by wasteland - which makes perfect sense.

Last: with the ellimination of sinkhole and discard from the lists they now run 20+ creatures (Mom, Bob, Serra Avenger Or Nighthawk, SfM, and Sculler). It's an aggro list - which as I said above, is good for bob. He's good in a threat-dense deck, because you can turn him sideways and his draws can accellerate you into aggro. Also the ellimination of hymn means that T2 is reserved for bob and forcing aggro strategem. It's clean, simple aggro - and it's nowhere near the original decklist...but it wins.

I guess I'm just not satisfied with Pure Aggro and I still have a desire to play Hymn.

---

I think part of the problem is that DGA is not really designed as an Aggro Deck or Control Deck - in reality, it is a Tempo deck that has attributes of the former ideas, yet runs enough goodstuff cards to do either job adequately.

The reason why this deck is effective is that it actually can do both. You can open with Mom and Vial in Tidehollows and use removal, or you can immediately Stoneforge into Swords and a stick to equip to, or it can just play creatures, and out card-advantage people with Bob and Swords.

IMO, the discard package should be:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Tidehollow Sculler

Sculler also has the advantage of not only being able to be Vialed in during their draw step or end step, but also hiding things outside of their GY and hand. That was very big against Dredge as a dredger in the yard is bad, but amazing under a Sculler.

The problem with Hymn and Sinkhole is that they are not always the right card for the situation. You remember those games where the Sinkhole blew someone out of the game, but forget the games where you spent a whole turn and 2 mana doing basically nothing as they had plenty of land in their hand. The same thing with Hymn. Sometimes you crush their hand and ride it home. Other times you draw it after they've played their threat you can't deal with, and it's a 2 cmc stuck in your hand doing nothing. The variance is my problem with those cards. You have no control over how many lands they draw so it is very hard to judge if Sinkhole will be useful or not.

The recent BW lists aren't pure aggro either though. They're built on being a balanced deck that has consistent draws and plenty of CA.

You play enough removal to deal with threats and push your guys through. You play enough disruption to stop combo and control decks. You play enough CA to grind out mid range decks. You play enough threats to aggro everyone quickly.

IMO, that's what makes this deck so good. It's not about being the best at destroying someone's hand. It's about being balanced so you can do all of them well enough. The key to that is bringing beats with everything which is why I play Goyf. You need to kill quickly so the disruption you play is enough, but you're not an aggro deck like Zoo either. If you play it like that, you probably won't have much success either.

Just to point out that mom (I recommend if you have two out) can create Psedo-Evasion by giving bob protection and just swinging through a one colored army. It happens more than you think.

Befor i got hooked on this, i was a HUGE UWT fan, but have found that this is a deck that takes care of business better than UWT. (I miss Vexing Sphinx, but we do have Bob).

CorpT's list is interesting, because i'm still not sold on Vial. Perhaps you can help me with this as it seems you play a Vial list. Do you use the Vials to play the extra stuff you draw? Is that your reasoning behind them?

I'm of the 12 disruption spell camp, especially since combo will be on the rise for a bit
4x thoughtseize
4x hymn to tourach
4x tidehollow sculler

@ the Tarmogoyf argument- if you wanna play goyf, may as well play BWG/Junk/Rock/Dark Horizons (why does this deck have 4 names???), personally i like Reliquary over goyf, but there's no reason to dilute the 2 color manabase with one card when you can change 10 cards and play Rock or go Junk & Taxes...

back to my posts a couple pages back---what does everyone use to battle zoo?? vampire nighthawk? my problem is that the zoo player in my playgroup also plays NO/PRO combo in it...techy bastard

what does everyone run in theire SB??

i'm looking at
3x extirpate
3x ethersworn canonist
3x yixlid jailer
2x jotun grunt
2x diabolic edict
2x pithing needle

other cards considered: runed halo, perish, duress, peacekeeper, silence/orim's chant, cop:red, wrath of god/damnation, kitchen finks, engineered plague, mindbreak trap, ravenous trap

I am experimenting with an WBG deck as well. I wanted to play the best creatures I could think of in a deck with vial and came up with this thing:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark confidant
3 Mother of runes
3 Stoneforge mystic
4 Knight of the reliquary
4 Tidehollow sculler

4 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawa’s jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Aether vial

4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Horizon canopy
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
4 Marsh flats
2 Verdant catacombs
2 Windswept heath

It is greedy because green is more than just a light splash, but the deck has proven to be quite powerful so far. IMO knights are just too powerful not to play if you’re playing with green anyway. All the potential replacements pale in comparison. I am not sure about the two vindicate slots; they could be anything from qasali pridemages, an extra land and sword, some more discard, etcetera…
Sideboard is a combination of combo hate (canonists and discard), graveyard hate, creature hate and stuff that can blow up enchantments.

Anyone tried out something like this (CorpT?) or has something to say about it? (besides pointing out that I may as well play junk).

Ok, I have a few more thoughts here.

First off, I'm now firmly in the 22 land camp, and firmly against splashing for a third color. Wasteland is the most played card in the format, and playing colored spells can already be difficult with 4 wastelands. You can't dodge wasteland, and you may be able to play around it, but adding the third color really isn't necessary - Goyf is a house and all, but we really just need someone to carry a big stick - and honestly I'd rather have a flyer do that anyway...which there is no shortage of in black and white.

However, if I play 22 lands I dont' think I can play vial - which is fine with me, I hate drawing late-game vials or being so easilly shut out by pithing needle - Which they are already bound to board in against wasteland, Mom, and fetch lands. Plus it leaves me the freedom to play Nighthawk without worrying about impacting synergy on a card I don't really like anyway. Also it leaves 2 more spots to include those last 2 1cmc discard spells that I want to fill out my curve and disruption package. Generally I loose some ability to play through control and my scullers loose some functionallity, but I feel like just playing Nighthawk is enough to make up for that - I really think he is that good. The reasoning is my own, but the strategy is already established in one of the winning lists.

I think there are a few common decision points and a few things that are universal when looking at this deck:

Universal:
4x Dark Confidant
3-4x Mother of Runes
3-4x Stoneforge Mystic
2-3x Equipment w/1 Jitte
4x Wasteland
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize

These are the cards that I've seen that are almost in all the decks and powerful enough to span all metas.

Decisions:
3rd Color (aka Green):
Pros: Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, sideboard options like Gaddock Teeg, Krosan Grip, etc...
Cons: Weaker mana base and more susceptibility to Wasteland.
IMO: Worth it. The mana base is very lightly impacted because the splash is fairly light. It becomes even easier with Vials. Additionally, Goyf and KotR allow you to kill quickly so you can race creature and combo decks.

Vials:
Pros: Allows you to work around Counter Balance. Allows you to play curve out while disrupting at the same time.
Cons: Weak top deck late in the game.
IMO: Worth it. One of the most powerful cards in Legacy right now. The ability to curve out so well in the early game by playing creatures and disruption while still having mana to equip. The downside of being a bad late game top deck is tempered by the fact that we're hopefully out card advantaging them with Bob and/or Equipment.

Tidehollow Sculler:
Pros: Hand disruption and body.
Cons: Not permanent hand disruption.
IMO: Worth it. Improved tremendously by Vial. Not as impressive without Vial, but still a good call most of the time.

Vampire Nighthawk:
Pros: Flier, Lifelink, Deathtouch.
Cons: 2/3 for 3.
IMO: Possible, but not worth it. Personally, I like to keep my Vials active by sticking with 2 drops in the creature slot.

Knight of the Reliquary:
Pros: Huge beater. Allows for running of specialty land (Maze, Karakas, Horizon Canopy)
Cons: Requires green splash. Three drop instead of two drops. No evasion.
IMO: Not worth it. This is probably the card I would most go to a 3 drop for. Again, for me this comes down to a Vial issue.

Vindicate:
Pros: Kills anything. Anything.
Cons: That's all it does. Three mana.
IMO: I'm playing 2 now and they've been fine. I don't often need them, but they are generally nice when I get them. Not sure what I would play in their place. Possibly Qasali Pridemage.

Serra Avenger:
Pros: Flys. Vigilance. 3/3 for 2.
Cons: Hard to play natural for both WW and turn restriction.
IMO: Ok, but must play Vials to be truly effective. Worse in a 3 color deck as well.

Equipment Package:
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Feast and Famine

Jitte: Cannot imagine the deck without it.
SoFaI: IMO, the best equipment. Drawing cards and extra, assignable damage is great. Protections are not particularly important except against Firespout, Vendillion Clique and Jace.
SoLaS: Good against Swords. Better protections (aka Swords), but not as useful of abilities. Creatures tend to not to go to GY. Life gain is useful, but 3 at a time is not a lot.
SoFaF: Weakest abilities, but good protections. Pro-Tarmogoyf is very powerful.

Land Count:
20: IMO too few even with 2 Colors or Vial.
21: IMO Possible with Vial and/or 2 Colors.
22: IMO Better without Vial and/or more 3 drops, especially KotR.
23: IMO Probably too much unless a significant amount of specialty lands like Maze, Karakas, etc...

Fringe cards:
Qasali Pridemage: Exalted and ability to destroy Artifacts and Enchantments is powerful. Better with Vial. Still a Creature. Potentially hard to cast.
Hymn to Tourach: IMO, very weak. BB requirement is steep. Bad top deck. Powerful, but unreliable.
Sinkhole: Even worse than Hymn for all the same reasons.
Squadron Hawk: Testing this out. I really like the CA engine. An unrestrictive, easy to cast flier on 2 fits with my keep-all-creatures-on-2 theme.

Those are the cards as I see them. I can certainly understand the arguments for cards like Knight and Nighthawk, but IMO, the 3rd color is well worth it. I am completely sold on Vials as well. They have been crucial in both getting through CounterTop and making the mana work so much better. Keeping my creatures on 2 means that I can play without Vial, but everything is much better with it.

Great write-up, just a few things im looking at:

Slow combo is good right now (ANT, Tide, Show) which means hymn is good right now.
Rock is good right now because it has game against slow combo.
We have a good matchup vs. Rock and we can play hymn.
We should play hymn at the moment.

Counterbalance is in decline right now due to the diverse metagame-it can't focus on particular "top decks"
Aether Vial is good vs. counterbalance, but doesn't play well with Vampire Nighthawk.
Serra Avenger is a tough call w/o Aether Vial.
Squadron Hawk is evasive, can carry equipment, and provides C/A.
We should drop Vial and Avengers for now and run twin 'hawks (NightHAWK and squadron HAWK) you like that huh, lol

realize these are metagame observations people, this is my point of view and i prefer vial+avenger+hymn all in my MD...

I can definitely see arguments for Hymn, but I'm still not sure about it. It's unreliablity is my issue with it. That being said, I think that Vial makes Hymn even better. The ability to drop a Vial on turn 1 and Hymn on turn 2 is exceedingly powerful. Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Hymn sounds powerful, but you have literally nothing but land on the board. Without pressure, slow combo like High Tide has plenty of time to build their hand back up. But, if you've got a Vial, you can start laying creatures quickly to keep the pressure up while disrupting them at the same time. IMO, Vial isn't just an anti-CB card, but also an amazing Tempo card.

I really like Hawk. It's been very powerful for me. Not only does it get itself out of the deck to help with Bob activations, but it carries equipment very well. I like going up to a 3/3 SFM/Equip split with Hawk to make sure that I always have an equipment for him.

I'm actually debating sideboard Vials against counterbalance. Against any other match-up the card just seems sub-par to me. I know it's good with sculler, but honestly I'm already finding myself wanting to go to 3 scullers.

However, if I were to play vial I'd probably play a couple Jotun Grunt as well - he plays really well with Squadron Hawk while still fitting in nicely in the 2 cmc spot and avoiding firespout. Plus he adds some main-deck utility against grave-happy decks like dredge and reanimator - who both have issues dealing with creatures.

I'm firmly in the camp of squadron hawk over serra avenger at this point...with or without vial. The card advantage is really all I'm looking for - as long as the creature can carry a stick I don't really care. Getting a dude into play early and swinging is pretty key. Waiting for a vial activation on turn 3 or waiting for a the turns restriction to pass to turn 4 is simply a pain in the rear end and is contradictory in purpose because it upsets our tempo...which is really all we have.

Hymn...I'm back and forth on. I really like it, but it changes the face of the deck a bit and really messes with the mana base. When the deck originally ran Hymn there were almost no white cards in it...now at least 1/2 of the deck is white and the mana base has changed substantially. At this point I'd consider verdict as a poor substitue, but I don't think I could support hymn.

Is this in the build with Goyf? And if so, what did you cut to fit in Squadron Hawks?

The version I'm running is similar to Gene R.'s build with Vial/Avenger, but I cut the Edicts for more creatures. I like the Goyf idea, but wouldn't Savannahs be more useful then Bayou?

In regards to Hawk, I really like being able to Vial in a 3/3 flyer or 4/4 in against something like Merfolk or Goblins to act as free removal, but the card advantage is important. I'd like to try running both Avenger and Hawk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bokwinkle

However, if I were to play vial I'd probably play a couple Jotun Grunt as well - he plays really well with Squadron Hawk while still fitting in nicely in the 2 cmc spot and avoiding firespout. Plus he adds some main-deck utility against grave-happy decks like dredge and reanimator - who both have issues dealing with creatures.

---

That's a really awesome point. I had started with Grunt and ended up a little disappointed in them because they kept dying on me. But that was before I tried Hawk. I think I'm going to go back and try them again. That's just an awesome interaction.

Quote:

---

I'm firmly in the camp of squadron hawk over serra avenger at this point...with or without vial. The card advantage is really all I'm looking for - as long as the creature can carry a stick I don't really care. Getting a dude into play early and swinging is pretty key. Waiting for a vial activation on turn 3 or waiting for a the turns restriction to pass to turn 4 is simply a pain in the rear end and is contradictory in purpose because it upsets our tempo...which is really all we have.

---

Agreed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zoomer3989

Is this in the build with Goyf? And if so, what did you cut to fit in Squadron Hawks?

The version I'm running is similar to Gene R.'s build with Vial/Avenger, but I cut the Edicts for more creatures. I like the Goyf idea, but wouldn't Savannahs be more useful then Bayou?

In regards to Hawk, I really like being able to Vial in a 3/3 flyer or 4/4 in against something like Merfolk or Goblins to act as free removal, but the card advantage is important. I'd like to try running both Avenger and Hawk.

---

This is my current list:

3 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawe's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland


Possible considerations:
-2 Vindicate
+2 Qasali Pridemage

Something for Grunt? Not sure what yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorpT

That's a really awesome point. I had started with Grunt and ended up a little disappointed in them because they kept dying on me. But that was before I tried Hawk. I think I'm going to go back and try them again. That's just an awesome interaction...

---

Yeah, I'd been playtesting Grunt without Vial and just generally was dissapointed with them - Mostly because they have similar disadvantages to avenger because of their play restrictions, and I already mentioned that I felt play restrictions are bad for this deck. I feel like a 2-of is about as much as I'd run. I like the synergy, but I feel like unless you can drop them on your opponent's end step and avoid sorcery speed removal they will never have a chance to use their ability or attack. Ultimately you just have to playtest them extensively.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorpT

...Something for Grunt? Not sure what yet.

---

He's a 4/4 - honestly, he takes the goyf spot IMHO, and you ramp up to 4 SfM's and add another removal spell (probably vindicate).

One other thing...I'm finding Go for the Throat to be better than Edict. There's just too many birds and or Hierarch's running around for my taste to run edict. Also, it's better against the goblin and merfolk matchup to deal with lords and/or siege-gang. The only match-ups where I see Edict helpful are against decks that run Emmy...but I generally feel those are just matchups we have to dodge at this point...I feel we simply cannot pack enough discard and hate for those decks.

Grunt with Tarmogoyf is awful synergy. I like Grunt a lot in the b/w version, but when splashing green, i would avoid him

It only seems like aweful synergy, but the reality is that if either of them stay on the board then you are winning, so it doesn't really matter. However, I don't think there is room for both of them.