Miracle Control

I've been testing with some friends and online and I think I have a tuned list to take to GP Chiba. Here's what I got:

4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
4x Island
1x Plains
1x Mountain
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Sensei's Diving Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Terminus
4 Force of Will
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Jace, the Mindsculptor
3x Counterbalance
2x Counterspell
2x Predict

3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Monastery Mentor

SIDEBOARD
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Wear // Tear
1x Containment Priest
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Flusterstorm
1x Blood Moon
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction

There are a few things of note:

I wanted to find a way to fit in 2 counterspells and 2 predicts. Counterspell is just a great catch all for problem cards. The 2 predict are great because they can help me dig when my other cantrips are otherwise locked by a chalice or if my top becomes useless due to a needle. In order to fit these cards, I cut 1 counterblance, which I feel is either hit or miss based on the matchup. Despite the lower amount, I still feel confident to be able to find them when I need them with all of my cantrips. I feel that this main is pretty solid but I am still open to criticisms.

Another point that I have been working on but am less sure about is the mana base. I wanted to be able to have a basic mountain in my deck. Because I am not running Entreat nor Council's Judgement, I felt it was ok to change one of the plains into a mountain. I also like having access to 4 islands so in order to fit them in, I cut a fetch. While these changes have been ok in testing, I am not very adept at building a mana base so please let me know what you think.

Lastly I hate having to run Blood Moon in my side but I am at a loss for what else to run. I have been seeing some Japanese players take Eldrazi to the local GPTs and legacy FNMs for testing and they seem to be doing well. Most of the rest of side seems to be where I want to be but the blood moon is the one card I wish I could leave at home. What do you guys think?


I'm gonna continue to do more testing as the GP gets nearer but I feel that this list is pretty close. Let me know what you guys think and I'll try to update my progress.

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Originally Posted by Misersoneof

I've been testing with some friends and online and I think I have a tuned list to take to GP Chiba. Here's what I got:

4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
4x Island
1x Plains
1x Mountain
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Sensei's Diving Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Terminus
4 Force of Will
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Jace, the Mindsculptor
3x Counterbalance
2x Counterspell
2x Predict

3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Monastery Mentor

SIDEBOARD
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Wear // Tear
1x Containment Priest
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Flusterstorm
1x Blood Moon
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction

There are a few things of note:

I wanted to find a way to fit in 2 counterspells and 2 predicts. Counterspell is just a great catch all for problem cards. The 2 predict are great because they can help me dig when my other cantrips are otherwise locked by a chalice or if my top becomes useless due to a needle. In order to fit these cards, I cut 1 counterblance, which I feel is either hit or miss based on the matchup. Despite the lower amount, I still feel confident to be able to find them when I need them with all of my cantrips. I feel that this main is pretty solid but I am still open to criticisms.

Another point that I have been working on but am less sure about is the mana base. I wanted to be able to have a basic mountain in my deck. Because I am not running Entreat nor Council's Judgement, I felt it was ok to change one of the plains into a mountain. I also like having access to 4 islands so in order to fit them in, I cut a fetch. While these changes have been ok in testing, I am not very adept at building a mana base so please let me know what you think.

Lastly I hate having to run Blood Moon in my side but I am at a loss for what else to run. I have been seeing some Japanese players take Eldrazi to the local GPTs and legacy FNMs for testing and they seem to be doing well. Most of the rest of side seems to be where I want to be but the blood moon is the one card I wish I could leave at home. What do you guys think?


I'm gonna continue to do more testing as the GP gets nearer but I feel that this list is pretty close. Let me know what you guys think and I'll try to update my progress.

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This list looks very similar to what we played at GP Columbus, basically -1 EE MD for +1 Cspell to go up to 3 and the game plan becomes almost all instant speed interaction. I liked the list, but it had a few inherent weaknesses and I can't imagine leaving home without 4 balance anymore, simply due to how Delver decks have come to adapt to us these days.

From the Ashes is another wonderful card to play right after a Terminus.
Even tough I would play Ruination because they play Wastes and you can skip that with the basic Mountain + usual basics.

I would consider 2x Ruination for every matchup but DnT and Infect in place of Blood Moon

Grixis, Sultai, Eldrazi, 12 posts and many others are totally busted by a well timed Ruination with Countertop set.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

This list looks very similar to what we played at GP Columbus, basically -1 EE MD for +1 Cspell to go up to 3 and the game plan becomes almost all instant speed interaction. I liked the list, but it had a few inherent weaknesses and I can't imagine leaving home without 4 balance anymore, simply due to how Delver decks have come to adapt to us these days.

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This is what my test partners keep saying. Running anything less than 4 counterbalances seems crazy to them. What do you suggest Minnie?

yea, you need 4 Counterbalance because they will break the first one or even the second

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

yea, you need 4 Counterbalance because they will break the first one or even the second

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No, you don't. I've played three counterbalances forever, and I have yet to miss the fourth one. The only matchup where counterbalance is required to even be able to compete is against Burn.

Three counterbalances is completly viable, if you tune your list to only contain three. That could be due to playing a counterspell more maindeck, a spell snare, a clique or some other piece of interaction. The counterbalance has to be replaced by something that gives you interaction.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

No, you don't. I've played three counterbalances forever, and I have yet to miss the fourth one. The only matchup where counterbalance is required to even be able to compete is against Burn.

Three counterbalances is completly viable, if you tune your list to only contain three. That could be due to playing a counterspell more maindeck, a spell snare, a clique or some other piece of interaction. The counterbalance has to be replaced by something that gives you interaction.

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Looking at DTB at the moment

MU	4 CB	3 CB
Miracles mirror	better	worse
Eldrazi	worse	one less dead card
DnT	worse	one less dead card
Shardless BUG	depends on what the replacement of 4th CB is	depends on what the replacement of 4th CB is

If you can replace the 4th CB that would be diverse enough to help you in these DTB MUs, I don't see why not. Looking at the chart, don't think Counterspell is the clear choice as the replacement. You preferably want something that's Not CMC 1 and it would either get rid of a problematic permanent and/or deal damage to creature and/or planeswalker. EE seems like a nice catch-all, but at sorcery speed, unlikely to get rid of Prelate, any Eldrazi dudes, Tarpit, or opposing Jace.

we have to make a reason we will need to be prepared very well to the mirror match

time for fancy testings!! Sulfur Elemental + Clique back again?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Looking at DTB at the moment

MU	4 CB	3 CB
Miracles mirror	better	worse
Eldrazi	worse	one less dead card
DnT	worse	one less dead card
Shardless BUG	depends on what the replacement of 4th CB is	depends on what the replacement of 4th CB is

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Shardless = creature-based, Eldrazi=creature-based, DnT= creature-based, Miracles: has SCM and Monks.
Looks like Supreme Verdict + more basics (3/4 play Wasteland) could actually be a sensible replacement for CB#4 :cool:
If you view it as an uncounterable Wrath that is a CJ+:u: and consider that more often than not CJ hits creatures anyway, it doesn't seem so odd.
Being better prepared against Elves, Infect, Dredge, Reanimator, Painter, Grixis Tempo, Bob.dec, Tribal.dec, etc. is a nice bonus.
What is more we'd free up another creature hate SB slot.
Making sure to win G1s against creature-based strategies certainly is a viable alternative to "catch-all" MDs.

Verdict is very weak to Thorn and DnT in General, but yes it's a great card.

In a meta which is creature infested Cavern and Vial male CB much less important.

The point why I will keep 4: multiples will pitch to FoW, everyone will aim to remove it and overall it is necessari in he mirror which is like the average matchup around

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

Verdict is very weak to Thorn and DnT in General, but yes it's a great card.

In a meta which is creature infested Cavern and Vial male CB much less important.

The point why I will keep 4: multiples will pitch to FoW, everyone will aim to remove it and overall it is necessari in he mirror which is like the average matchup around

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if

I play 4 myself, however at the end of the day that number is meta-dependent. And the current DTB looks like 4 is not a given any longer. Moving one to the side seems like an elegant solution to me, if one is annoyed by drawing multiples too often.

Regarding less than 4 balance: I think, it's okay to go down to 3 but you have to compensate in your main deck for matchups where you are hurt by not having that 4th balance. We did this at the GP thinking that the 3 counterspell would compensate okay, but you can do this in other ways depending on what your priorities are. Things like EE cover a percentage of matchups like Delver, Elves, etc where balance is good, while things like MD blasts or additional counterspells are good in the mirror. Doing this tilts your deck in a variety of ways, but just keep in mind when constructing. You have to compensate for any weaknesses you create!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

Regarding less than 4 balance: I think, it's okay to go down to 3 but you have to compensate in your main deck for matchups where you are hurt by not having that 4th balance. We did this at the GP thinking that the 3 counterspell would compensate okay, but you can do this in other ways depending on what your priorities are. Things like EE cover a percentage of matchups like Delver, Elves, etc where balance is good, while things like MD blasts or additional counterspells are good in the mirror. Doing this tilts your deck in a variety of ways, but just keep in mind when constructing. You have to compensate for any weaknesses you create!

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I play with 3 Counterbalance for quite a while and I have to say, I don't miss the 4th. Playing 3 copies let you draw into one CB relugary without being "flooded" by an unneeded second one. To compensate this, I play a 1x Spell Snare and a 1x Counterspell along side to the 4x Force, and also a couple of Impulse. I know this card doesn't see any play, but it's a very strong card to search the appropriate answer at the right time, it dig so deep ! Being 2cmc also help against chalice deck to find Explosive, Wear//Tear or Disenchant. ;)

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Originally Posted by kravkenov

I play with 3 Counterbalance for quite a while and I have to say, I don't miss the 4th. Playing 3 copies let you draw into one CB relugary without being "flooded" by an unneeded second one. To compensate this, I play a 1x Spell Snare and a 1x Counterspell along side to the 4x Force, and also a couple of Impulse. I know this card doesn't see any play, but it's a very strong card to search the appropriate answer at the right time, it dig so deep ! Being 2cmc also help against chalice deck to find Explosive, Wear//Tear or Disenchant. ;)

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What about the rest of your main? Are you still running 2 pierce and 1 counterspell? Impulse seems like an interesting card but I don't know if I'd want to run it over Predict.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Misersoneof

What about the rest of your main? Are you still running 2 pierce and 1 counterspell? Impulse seems like an interesting card but I don't know if I'd want to run it over Predict.

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I shaved the 2x Spell Pierce and 1x Explosives for 1x Counterspell (keeping in the 1x Spell Snare, which is better than Spell Pierce imo) and 2x Impulse. I also want to try 1x Karakas (-1x Plains) to see how it goes. So my main look like this :

3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Impulse
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Terminus
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain

Honestly, there is no need for the 4th CB, one is more then enough per game and there is no rush to land it in the first place.

Given the amount of cantrips we play having 3 or 4 of them doesn't make much difference, we are still likely to find one if needed, playing the full set is just helpful against abrupt decay, and we already beat most decay decks.

the mirror. in the mirror you want the fourth

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Originally Posted by Poron

the mirror. in the mirror you want the fourth

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There are much stronger card if you want to have an advantage in the mirror.
I would suggest Spell Snare, but there are a lot more.

It's important to realize that CB is strong only in the game 1 of the mirror, postboard you dont want to rush anyway.

you feel Snare is better than CB in the mirror?

A CB with Wear/Tear on top will leave him with 1 Council's Judgment 3 finisher, 2 Jace and 54 stones

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

you feel Snare is better than CB in the mirror?

A CB with Wear/Tear on top will leave him with 1 Council's Judgment 3 finisher, 2 Jace and 54 stones

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That's not what he said. He said Snare is a reasonable replacement for CB as it's very strong in the mirror too, not better than.