All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Cantrips don't slow down the game plan. They're the mechanism that creates turn 2 and 3 wins for combo. ...

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If you take a deck list that contains cantrips shifting the balance so that there are more cantrips will slow the deck down but make it more reliable, and replacing cantrips with 'gas' will make the deck faster but less reliable.

Alternatively, if we look at decks, it seems like the ones that run the fewest card quality and card advantage effects are also the ones that try to establish a lock or combo as quickly as possible, and the ones with the most cantrips are looking for a late game win.

The cantrip effects do not - of themselves - create turn 2 and 3 wins, but they do make that sort of game plan more viable.

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Originally Posted by iGrok

That format sounds like Modern, which isn't a format I want to play.

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This argument is such a fucking joke.

There is definitely a medium between Modern and current Legacy, sort of like this is the medium between Modern and the alternate universe Legacy with Frantic Search, Mystical Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Necropotence, etc. etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

You can play an 8 Blood Moon deck to beat greedy manabases with no basic lands. The tools exist in Legacy to beat a variety of decks and strategies.

The problem is still this opinion that the colors need to be balanced for whatever reason. Let's say each color was equally represented in Legacy, but the format was 80% midrange decks. Would you consider that balanced? Just curious.

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I don't think the colors need "to be balanced".

WTF does Blood Moon have to do with Brainstorms power level and ubiquity vs. the power level and predicted ubiquity of cards currently on the banned list?

I'm not talking about color equality, I'm talking about one fucking Magic card. One card. One card that is way better than many cards already banned, and cards that have been removed over the last 10 years. One card with a saturation level that surpasses all non-Mental Misstep cards that have gotten banned in the last 10 years. I can play 8 Blood Moons, awesome. You can play basic lands available in your local draft box.

Brainstorm dwarfed Treasure Cruise, Survival and Mystical Tutor in usage rate. 75-80% as a 4 of.
Even Ponder was more played than Treasure Cruise.
Treasure Cruise was the most recent sacrificial lamb.
They've unbanned Entomb, Metalworker, Grim Monolith, Time Spiral, Dream Halls, Land Tax, Dragon all of which are fringe cards or sparsely played in concert with Brainstorm.
Brainstorm is worlds more powerful and ubiquitous than Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Black Vise, Survival of the Fittest, and probably Frantic Search (especially if Brainstorm were not legal).

Just answer, "I love casting Brainstorm because I feel skill intensity. I don't want it banned. I can't cite any real reasons other than this feeling, and it's clearly better than many cards on the banned list but I don't care. Go play modern. Go play vintage. Leave me and my friends alone so we can continue our cantrip orgy. While you mull to 6 trying to find lands and spells."

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Originally Posted by rufus

These seems like examples of the specious "blue is good so the other colors can't be" argument.

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I was only referring to his specific example of Grisly Salvage being costed {B/G}. It would become another example of a good card (like Miracles, like Fetchlands, like Entomb, like Stoneforge) that becomes super charged with Brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

There aren't enough uncounterable green cards and none that are cheap enough to matter in this meta. White tax works to an extent but it loses over the long run to blue consistency and it loses to other extremely consistent lists that are hard to tax, like Elves. Black preventing the stack with discard is a joke. Remove Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top from the meta and it might not be but the idea that black discard has any effect at all on the stack at this point is ridiculous. The only effect it has on the stack is triggering a Brainstorm when the opponent has the option and the circumstances warrant.

The only effective hand disruption that are played from the hand at this point that interfere with the stack are blue counters, Vendilion Clique and Vines of Vastwood.

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Two things. A) My entire argument is based on "Bring B/G/W up to par power-level-wise" with blue. This implies that counterspell decks should be less ubiquitous, especially if the common sentiment that "many players are only playing blue because its the best" is true. B) There are 4 creatures that can't be countered that are 3cmc or less (I'm counting Mistcutter here). But that number will only increase with time. Taxes is another deck that only gets more powerful with time - before Delvemageddon, D&T was one of the DsTB.

Yeah, discard isn't an effective way of dealing with the stack, but it does, to some degree, prevent the blue mage from interfering. What black does get is raw card advantage (Hymn, Lili, Therapy). It's okay for different colors to interact more or less with the stack as long as that advantage is made up for elsewhere. Otherwise, we get what you said - clones of blue decks in every color.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

I was only referring to his specific example of Grisly Salvage being costed {B/G}. It would become another example of a good card (like Miracles, like Fetchlands, like Entomb, like Stoneforge) that becomes super charged with Brainstorm.

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Salvage at B/G is great when you go Brainstorm>Salvage.
Salvage at B/G is terrible when you go Salvage>Mill your Brainstorm because you can't chain with Salvage.

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Originally Posted by maharis

This argument is such a fucking joke.

There is definitely a medium between Modern and current Legacy, sort of like this is the medium between Modern and the alternate universe Legacy with Frantic Search, Mystical Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Necropotence, etc. etc. etc.

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An inconsistent Legacy format where 5 drops are normal sounds like Modern. Not is Modern. To make Legacy inconsistent, ban the cantrips, right?

Here are the decks that are playable (not powerlevel wise, just they exist) in Neutered Legacy that aren't in Modern:
Lands
REAL Goblins
Oops
Nic Fit (Nonblue)
Painter
Dredge
Stax
MUD
Deadguy
Enchantress

The thing is, none of these decks interact on the stack, and few of them can beat Turn 4 Splinter Twin with Force. And Amulet Bloom gets to just go fetch Stage-Depths from Prime Time, so there's that. Twin even gets a little better because it gets Daze, Force, and Preordain. This isn't to say that Twin becomes the dominant archetype, or that the format wouldn't evolve, but its an example that a Modern deck in comparison to Legacy when you cut the consistency.

Also I want to report a new high in the 'Brainstorm is OK' camp. Great Stable Stag and Skylasher have entered the fray. I can't wait to stare down Omnichimp man who has crafted a perfect hand with Brainstorms, Ponders and fetches ... getting rid of extra Omni's and casting Show and Tell ... just seeing the look on his face when I present the finest of all Stags. He will actually rupture his diaphragm from laughter and die, thus losing the match.

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Originally Posted by iGrok

Salvage at B/G is great when you go Brainstorm>Salvage.
Salvage at B/G is terrible when you go Salvage>Mill your Brainstorm because you can't chain with Salvage.

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It all worked out because I Dug Through Time at the end of your 3rd turn.

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Originally Posted by maharis

This argument is such a fucking joke.

There is definitely a medium between Modern and current Legacy, sort of like this is the medium between Modern and the alternate universe Legacy with Frantic Search, Mystical Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Necropotence, etc. etc. etc.

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The difference is most people would rather have it the way it is than completely flip the format upside down either way.

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Originally Posted by iGrok

The biggest issue is that now that DTT exists, they can't print Salvage at B/G. Fuck Delve and the horse it rode in on, cards are OP as shit.

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Brainstorm is worlds more powerful than any of the delve spells they've printed. It is also the best spell to pair with delve as it allows you to shuffle away uncastable delve spells early and feed your graveyard for a mid game refill with a delve spell. The fact that you don't understand this, or won't admit this leads me to believe you have no understanding of how these spells interact or that you are just trolling me. In the case of the latter you were successful.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Brainstorm... Brainstorm... Brainstorm...

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Take a break already. We know your point of view, do you think this is a shouting contest? Behave yourself, this is the internet.

Also, what if Grisly Salvage cost {B/G}, and had "Grisly Salvage cost 2 more to cast if you control an Island"?

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Brainstorm is worlds more powerful than any of the delve spells they've printed. It is also the best spell to pair with delve as it allows you to shuffle away uncastable delve spells early and feed your graveyard for a mid game refill with a delve spell. The fact that you don't understand this, or won't admit this leads me to believe you have no understanding of how these spells interact or that you are just trolling me. In the case of the latter you were successful.

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At no point did I say that Brainstorm was bad with delve. Nice strawman.
What I said was, DTT makes powerful Salvage-style cards unprintable. Do you disagree?

It's pretty much the purpose of this thread. Ignore me. Or come up with a cogent argument against my statement:

Brainstorm is a significantly more powerful card than cards currently on the Legacy banned list. Even if some of those cards were to be unbanned Brainstorm would drown them in usage rate. Brainstorm has achieved 100% saturation in Legacies highest level event(s). Other cards have been banned with less saturation (Survival, Mystical). Thus Brainstorm should be banned.

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Originally Posted by iGrok

At no point did I say that Brainstorm was bad with delve. Nice strawman.
What I said was, DTT makes powerful Salvage-style cards unprintable. Do you disagree?

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A one mana salvage would just be better Thought Scour, and Thought Scour is pretty good. Brainstorm enables Delve cards far more than even Thought Scour otherwise it would be played at higher levels. Brainstorm is a far better enabler for delve than Salvage style cards and there is indisputable proof in that it's 100%, 32/32 in a top 8 with 16 DTT (50%) and there are 0 Thought Scours.

Try again buddy, you delivered the fake Grisly Salvage talking point and it has deflected from reality. Defend Brainstorm. Really. I even lauded you for essentially saying you just liked playing with it, but trying to actually defend it's inclusion is pretty tough. Feel free to try though.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

A one mana salvage would just be better Thought Scour, and Thought Scour is pretty good. Brainstorm enables Delve cards far more than even Thought Scour otherwise it would be played at higher levels. Brainstorm is a far better enabler for delve than Salvage style cards and there is indisputable proof in that it's 100%, 32/32 in a top 8 with 16 DTT (50%) and there are 0 Thought Scours.

Try again buddy, you delivered the fake Grisly Salvage talking point and it has deflected from reality. Defend Brainstorm. Really. I even lauded you for essentially saying you just liked playing with it, but trying to actually defend it's inclusion is pretty tough. Feel free to try though.

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You seem to be confusing correlation and causation.
Brainstorm is good.
Dig Through Time is good.
Thought Scour is unplayable outside of its interaction with Delve.
We see that Brainstorm and DTT see play, and Thought Scour does not.
This implies that Thought Scour's interaction with Delve is not powerful enough to merit playing it instead of Brainstorm.
This does not imply that Brainstorm enables DTT better than Thought Scour.
Conclusion: Brainstorm and Dig Through Time see play because they are both good.
Your Conclusion: Brainstorm is a better enabler of DTT than Thought Scour.

I'd really like to see your logic chain there.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

It's pretty much the purpose of this thread. Ignore me. Or come up with a cogent argument against my statement:

Brainstorm is a significantly more powerful card than cards currently on the Legacy banned list. Even if some of those cards were to be unbanned Brainstorm would drown them in usage rate. Brainstorm has achieved 100% saturation in Legacies highest level event(s). Other cards have been banned with less saturation (Survival, Mystical). Thus Brainstorm should be banned.

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Great, Brainstorm is even better than just playing cantrip Dark Ritual for Delve. Continue solidifying the above point. Now, take a stab at refuting the above statement irrespective of the Delve mechanic and your fake {G/B} grisly salvage make-a-card which has derailed the central topic of the banned and restricted list.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Great, Brainstorm is even better than just playing cantrip Dark Ritual for Delve. Continue solidifying the above point. Now, take a stab at refuting the above statement irrespective of the Delve mechanic and your fake {G/B} grisly salvage make-a-card which has derailed the central topic of the banned and restricted list.

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I played your game once, now its your turn.

Take a stab at answering the questions below:

In what way is Brainstorm a more powerful enabler than a cantripping dark ritual for Delve? What logical process do you take that leads you to that conclusion?

Because Thoughtscour exists and nobody played it in a deck with 4 Dig Through Time. They instead played Brainstorm x 4, Ponder x 4, Preordain x 4, Probe x 4. So despite Thoughtscour turbo charging Delve for an effective 3 mana and replacing itself, and being unlikely to burn business in a deck with top deck manipulation like Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain it still wasn't as good as the aforementioned cantrip cartel.

Your turn.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Because Thoughtscour exists and nobody played it in a deck with 4 Dig Through Time. They instead played Brainstorm x 4, Ponder x 4, Preordain x 4, Probe x 4. So despite Thoughtscour turbo charging Delve for an effective 3 mana and replacing itself, and being unlikely to burn business in a deck with top deck manipulation like Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain it still wasn't as good as the aforementioned cantrip cartel.

Your turn.

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So like I said, your Logic is:

Brainstorm sees more play than Thought Scour.
Thought Scour is good at feeding Delve
Therefore Brainstorm is better at feeding Delve than Thought Scour.

By your logic, Gitaxian Probe is also better at feeding Delve than Thought Scour.

If you can't see the flaw in that logic I'm not sure what to tell you.

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Originally Posted by Kanti

Saying Brainstorm is not a bit overpowered compared to other cards is a bit silly. In a vacuum though Brainstorm is not format breaking, and can be competed with. Alongside other extremely powerful cantrips like Ponder, Preordain, and Gitaxian Probe things get out of hand. There are 29/32 Ponders in that top 8. Why isn't anyone bringing that up? I get that you hate Brainstorm, but I don't understand wanting to ban it before exploring other options.

I also think solving this problem has a lot to do with how we approach problem solving as individuals, if we are more conservative (change, vs no change), if we are reactive or proactive as people. So maybe instead of there being "blue" and "non-blue" mages there are just really different sentiments on how to adress the problem of <60% of the meta running BS+Ponder.

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Because BS is largely the key player in Top 8s. There have been around three recorded events that have had less than 24 copies of the card in Top 8s. BS was consistently the most commonly played card at the Legacy GPs we've had. And it is the only card that does what it does at such a low cost. In addition BS specifically beats TScour in matches where you have to face discard or tempo plays;

1) In Discard matches, you can effectively 'hide' your key cards whilst on the play;
2) Brainstorm is the most efficient tempo card in the formet, even taking into account the possibility of locking yourself for two turns if you whiff on your needs.

It is head and shoulders above everything else in the formet in terms of quality.