Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
December
This is the latest BDM list that I have been using to great success locally and am bringing to EW:
Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
1 Engineered Explosives
Creatures (9)
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Spell Queller
2 Snapcaster Mage
Lands (19)
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
SIDEBOARD
1 Disenchant
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Null Rod
1 Blood Moon
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
The MD is unconventional, but seems good at least.
What is happening with the SB here? You are playing 3 sulfur elementals and 2 moats with a mentor-centric shell. Null rod in miracles? Why would play one of the best hate cards against us in your deck? Crypt is also sub-optimal in a deck like miracles, when there are much better options like relic, surgical or RIP. Etutor is just bad in general as it is card disadvantage, and not needed in a deck with 16 cantrips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
December
Sulfur Elemental is great in the mirror, Split Second makes it uncounterable and when it's in play they can't blast it or play their mentors so you can usually kill them fast while they look at their stranded Disenchants (Since you boarded out Counterbalance of course).
If your opponents are bringing in disenchants and out CB in the mirror, its no wonder you are doing ok with sulfer elementals.
Sulfer is ok in the mirror. The uncounterable part is cool. But is a very lose-less card:
- It does not get you out of CB lock. You are still way behind.
- It makes mentor slightly less bonkers. Instead of getting infinite 5/5, they just get 1 6/4. You are still behind here.
- It dies to snaps/cliques and provides card disadvantage in this trade.
So sulfer is ok in the mirror and good against D&T and maverick, while being useless against basically all other decks.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I wonder if he boards out Mentor and flies over with the Spell Quellers.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
What is happening with the SB here? You are playing 3 sulfur elementals and 2 moats with a mentor-centric shell. Null rod in miracles? Why would play one of the best hate cards against us in your deck? Crypt is also sub-optimal in a deck like miracles, when there are much better options like relic, surgical or RIP. Etutor is just bad in general as it is card disadvantage, and not needed in a deck with 16 cantrips.
Relic is too expensive to use during the same turn if you cast enlightened tutor for it during the upkeep. It's also possible I should cut the Enlightened Tutors but buying 2 more moats are quite expensive so I don't think I want to do that without testing first.
Regarding Null Rod it's a classic sideboard card against decks like storm, and I'm not the first to use it, just look here at this list. But if you don't like Enlightened Tutor it gets worse and could just be a Aegis of the Gods since that's also good against storm and other black decks.
I trust that the owners of BDM knew what they were doing when they put monastery mentor into the deck so I'm not cutting it only because it can't attack with a moat out.
Thanks for the feedback! I will take it into consideration!
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
December
Relic is too expensive to use during the same turn if you cast enlightened tutor for it during the upkeep. It's also possible I should cut the Enlightened Tutors but buying 2 more moats are quite expensive so I don't think I want to do that without testing first.
Regarding Null Rod it's a classic sideboard card against decks like storm, and I'm not the first to use it, just look here
at this list. But if you don't like Enlightened Tutor it gets worse and could just be a Aegis of the Gods since that's also good against storm and other black decks.
I trust that the owners of BDM knew what they were doing when they put monastery mentor into the deck so I'm not cutting it only because it can't attack with a moat out.
Thanks for the feedback! I will take it into consideration!
Null rod is a great card against storm... and against miracles. Top is much better against storm (in our deck) than null rod is. If you want an etutor target against storm, just get balance. Cannonist is also an option. Playing null rod in miracles is like adding a tropical island and choke to the SB.
I do not think you should cut mentor, I think you should cut moat and sulfer elemental.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
Cannonist is also an option.
I don't think Cannonist is very good with Monastery Mentor, and I play 4 preordain in order to cast multiple spells each turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
I do not think you should cut mentor, I think you should cut moat and sulfer elemental.
Moat is a great card against creatures without flying, and I don't think Sulfer Elemental is good enough against Eldrazi or Elves where moat shines.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
December
I don't think Cannonist is very good with Monastery Mentor, and I play 4 preordain in order to cast multiple spells each turn.
I am going to assume this sarcasm or you have just been trolling this time. Either way, I'll stop giving advice now.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
I am going to assume this sarcasm or you have just been trolling this time. Either way, I'll stop giving advice now.
I'm sorry if my list seems unconventional, or if my replies were not what you wanted to hear, but I have tested it a lot around here and the surprise factor is certainly worth something. I have no ill-intentions and did not wish to anger you, I appreciate your advice and I wish you all the luck in the upcoming eternal weekend! How is your latest list, and how do you deal with eldrazi without moat?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BDM4lyfe
Hey guys, I'm excited to begin getting involved in the conversation. I have recently had a lot of success with the "BDM" list (4 Mentor). Sort of concerned about Prelate and new Death and Taxes, and I'm wondering if people have been testing more Kozilek's Returns and Staticasters. I see in the last couple pages there was some discussion about which is better... But I am thinking that generally we probably need to run at least one.
What's your most recent list?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I take off to prepare for the PT for a bit and now we have a totally inane list being discussed. I don't even know what BDM stands for, but we appear to have...
Terminus and Spell Queller in the same list, as well as
Null Rod and THREE different cards it shuts down
a playset of Mentors along with a pair of Moats
a singleton Flusterstorm
AND three Sulfur Elementals!
What happened in the metagame to cause all this?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
I take off to prepare for the PT for a bit and now we have a totally inane list being discussed. I don't even know what BDM stands for, but we appear to have...
Terminus and Spell Queller in the same list, as well as
Null Rod and THREE different cards it shuts down
a playset of Mentors along with a pair of Moats
a singleton Flusterstorm
AND three Sulfur Elementals!
What happened in the metagame to cause all this?
When you put it that way it does indeed seem a slight bit worse. But keep in mind that I can rarely have all those things in play at the same time since my opponent is not a goldfish.
It's possible that I should add Venser, Shaper Savant and Karakas to serve as a drawbridge over the moat, that way I can play Venser to bounce the moat during my opponents end of turn, untap, cast spells to trigger mentor, attack and then replay the moat to stay safe.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I have had some trouble in the mirror lately, and I have concluded that it often comes down to either Sensei's Divining Top or Counterbalance, and that I don't often lose to Jace because I can punish them if they tap out for such an expensive card at sorcery speed with either Spell Queller or Monastery Mentor. Have anyone here tested Annul in the sideboard?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Here's the mana base I've been playing recently. Nothing out of he ordinary: 20 lands, 10 fetches, 4 duals, 2 Plains, 0 Mountain. I recently added a mountain to my sideboard to being in agains wasteland decks and have been really liking it, however, I wish I could get that spot back in my sideboard.
Lands:20
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
My question is: Is it feasible to go -1 Volc +1 Mountain main? I want two plains. I want one mountain...
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
I take off to prepare for the PT for a bit and now we have a totally inane list being discussed. I don't even know what BDM stands for, but we appear to have...
Terminus and Spell Queller in the same list, as well as
Null Rod and THREE different cards it shuts down
a playset of Mentors along with a pair of Moats
a singleton Flusterstorm
AND three Sulfur Elementals!
What happened in the metagame to cause all this?
They changed the Standard rotation schedule, and the prolonged legality of Spell Queller incentivized players like December to test it in Miracles.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
PSA For any player new to miracles.
You probably are not the first person to think of some card that we could be playing in our SB. There's a good reason behind the card choices in most successful lists.
Before you post your reinvention of a wheel here, do some combination of the following:
- Read Philipps primer (The concepts transcend the card choices): http://www.starcitygames.com/tags/Ph...-19/2016-10-19
- Watch Oarsman's stream: https://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79/profile
- Watch some past SCG coverage of miracles: http://www.mtgcoverage.com/
- Play a few hundred games with a stock list
Miracles is complex and so is legacy. After doing these things you probably have a basic understanding of how the deck operates, and you will be much better with the archetype.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Thanks for posting that. Though I'm pretty sure they're just trolling, best not to feed them.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
I take off to prepare for the PT for a bit and now we have a totally inane list being discussed. I don't even know what BDM stands for, but we appear to have...
Terminus and Spell Queller in the same list, as well as
Null Rod and THREE different cards it shuts down
a playset of Mentors along with a pair of Moats
a singleton Flusterstorm
AND three Sulfur Elementals!
What happened in the metagame to cause all this?
BDM is the nearly perfect GP Columbus top 8 Mentor Miracles list popularized by Legacy genius and guru Wilson Hunter and his trusty sidekick Phillip Braverman.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
prepare4robots
Here's the mana base I've been playing recently. Nothing out of he ordinary: 20 lands, 10 fetches, 4 duals, 2 Plains, 0 Mountain. I recently added a mountain to my sideboard to being in agains wasteland decks and have been really liking it, however, I wish I could get that spot back in my sideboard.
Lands:20
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
My question is: Is it feasible to go -1 Volc +1 Mountain main? I want two plains. I want one mountain...
I have been testing with different mana bases recently and I have played with something similar.
Originally I tested:
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
1 Volc
It didn't seem bad but I did get mana screwed a few times.
I then began testing:
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volc
So far this settup has been pretty good for me.
Is there some reason why you are running two plains? Does your list run entreat or CJ? I think that I wouldn't want more than 2 non-blue sources. It would feel pretty bad to open a hand with all three non-blue basics + counterbalance or with Ponder as your only actionable card.
EDIT: mistake in the first mana base list.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Misersoneof
I have been testing with different mana bases recently and I have played with something similar.
Originally I tested:
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
1 Volc
It didn't seem bad but I did get mana screwed a few times.
I then began testing:
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volc
So far this settup has been pretty good for me.
Is there some reason why you are running two plains? Does your list run entreat or CJ? I think that I wouldn't want more than 2 non-blue sources. It would feel pretty bad to open a hand with all three non-blue basics + counterbalance or with Ponder as your only actionable card.
EDIT: mistake in the first mana base list.
Exactly. I run 2 Mentor 1 Entreat 1 CJ 1 EE. I've considerd going switching the Entreat for another mentor, but I like having the threat diversity. I also really like CJ. That's the reason for two plains.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BDM4lyfe
BDM is the nearly perfect GP Columbus top 8 Mentor Miracles list popularized by Legacy genius and guru Wilson Hunter and his trusty sidekick Phillip Braverman.
Wilson, dude that's enough.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
prepare4robots
Here's the mana base I've been playing recently. Nothing out of he ordinary: 20 lands, 10 fetches, 4 duals, 2 Plains, 0 Mountain. I recently added a mountain to my sideboard to being in agains wasteland decks and have been really liking it, however, I wish I could get that spot back in my sideboard.
Lands:20
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
My question is: Is it feasible to go -1 Volc +1 Mountain main? I want two plains. I want one mountain...
I'm not playing any WW spells, so i'm less reliant on plains plains, but I've been playing a 2 tundra/2 volc, 4 island, mountain, plains, 10 fetches manabase and it's been excellent.
