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I would not advocate 2 islands only. At all. -1 tundra, +1 island might be reasonable, but 3 is the minimum. You aren't unhappy with having island as a landdrop in hand, where-as duals are often a luxary you can fetch out later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misersoneof
That's not entirely accurate. Your opponent has Red Blast effect, so are you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Jace and CB are powerful one-two punches, in whichever orders. This sequence of spells forces your Miracles opponent to come up with answers or alternative route. Miracles does not have many cards to generate CA. Falling behind in CA against your Miracles opponent's Jace activation(s) sounds pretty dead to me.
I don't understand your first point. Both players will have Blasts...or you're saying some people play REB instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I disagree quite strongly here, you can't just throw them down in whichever orders, tapping low for a Jace just to have the opponent resolve a Counterbalance sounds pretty dead to me.
Counterbalance requires an immediate answer, Jace doesn't in my experience. The CA is meaningless if your opponent then establishes CounterTop and locks most of them out of the game. Counterbalance is CA itself too, but it can't reasonably be blasted. They can then find a Blast at their leisure to deal with the Jace.
I probably should have prefaced this by saying if you're playing the Legends build then it's entirely different since you have access to Cavern plus Venser.
Because you're using Red Blast as a justification for not running Jace in SB games. I'm saying that's not a valid reasoning. Both players have bunch of blue cards like CB, and then some Red Blasts. Just because your opponent runs Red Blast effect, that should not be the reason for you to SB-out Blue cards like CB or FoW or Jace, or be the reason for anything really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
How is CA meaningless if your opponent rushes CounterTop onto the board and you are then activating Jace to try to find an answer/win-con? There're plenty of Miracles mirror in which one side resolves a CB, or even a CB-T lock, yet I don't see the other player conceding, hence I don't understand your immediacy statement. You can certainly allow your opponent to Jace-storm for like 5 turns in this Miracles mirror, but I would say you practically lost. Assuming the board is just lands and maybe SDT on both sides, a prolonged Jace on one side requires higher urgency to answer than a CB in play.
CB and FoW are different to Jace when evaluating their playability vs blast. FoW can only be blasted on the stack, CB is very hard to blast on the field. Jace gets hit both on the stack and field, it's a world of difference. Jace is so vulnerable to blast, but most importantly makes you tap low at sorcery speed which gives the opponent a window to resolve CB. The matchup revolves around this card and is often decided by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
What good are the cards Jace is drawing when CB counters them? The player with CounterTop in SB games will almost always win vs a Jace from my experience.
so I was watching the Cardkingdom Legacy Stream last night and saw 2 people playing a "Miracles of Science" deck, anyone know anything about this or have a deck list for this?
The Miracle of Science is Greg Mitchell aka Phazonmutant's creation. It combines the Show and Tell + Omni win condition with the CounterTop lock with a few miracles and mentors thrown into the mix. His record with the deck as actually quite good. He's a good friend of mine, and he keeps winning with the deck, no matter how much I make fun of him:Quote:
Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard
https://deckbox.org/sets/786823
To add to the above, here's a pretty good tournament report by the creator: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...CardKingdom-1KQuote:
Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard
I used to run Venser, but no longer have even that. CounterTop is huge, but your opponent still has to find an answer quickly to beat a Jace, as the card advantage form Jace is a lot more than a Counterbalance. Especially with Predict being a card it's getting pretty easy to take out the CounterTop lock, anyhow. I personally had 2 Predict, Councils Judgment, and a Wear/Tear. Not to mention Entreat is easy to setup with Jace and completely ignores the soft-lock. Not to also mention how your opponent has to have a 1 in the top 3, or you can play whichever cantrip and fateseal his top away. Counterbalance is a fair card because there's so many ways to play around it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Is it now I should mention I, along with a lot of other people I (and most of this forum) respect, board out jace in the mirror?
In my opinion, there are 2 ways the game play out:
The usual situation: People spend the first few turns to setup, which eventually means Clique and Snapcaster starts to get traded. You both have such a density of good cards that resolving anything significant becomes and issue, and this is where Predict shines.
The unusual situation: You jam balance early with double protection: Opponent plays something turn 1 and doesn't show pyro, which means your force will likely either win the fight or leave him hellbent or you play it turn 3 with fluster back. These don't usually happen.
In situation one, jace is god awful. In situation turn, jace is pretty mediocre, as you can't really fight over him, and protect him.
This is why Jesus invented the screenshot.
I was totally skeptical about Jace in the mirror exactly one year ago because it is sorcery speed, your opponent will play EVERYTHING in response and a single Vendilion Clique will both clear your hand and 99% of the times kill Jace as well.
And I have to read around that I am lowering the IQ of the thread! I am just 1 year forward you guys :cool:
posts 8849-8850
The so-called usual situation is definitely not usual. Not everyone runs Predict. You're now dragging a different card into the topic. The topic is about Jace in SB matches, you now bring the whole deck into context, the deck that contains Predict just complicates the scenario unnecessary. Does your opponent also have Jace and Predict? Are you the only player running Predict? Jace generates CA as a standalone win-con. Predict requires setup via SDT or blue cantrips to generate CA, they are all are just useless if your opponent manages to get an early CB-T lock on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
The real "usual" situation is:
1. Both players fought over a Clique on stack, a CB on stack, traded resources. Now your opponent has 1 card in hand, say a Spell Snare or something irrelevant, you only have Jace in hand. Say you jam Jace and it resolves, now you can get as much CA as possible, putting you into the lead. By the time your opponent finds an answer, a Blast or a Mentor, he's simply trying to bring the game back to parity. What if the first/second Jace activation gives you the Red blast/spell snare/counterspell you need for your opponent's next CB/red blast?
2. Unfortunately, your opponent started the game gun blazing, turn 1 SDT, turn 2 CB with counter magic back-up, you lost the counter war on his CB. At this point, your predict in your hand might just be a useless card. You can test the water with Snapcaster, Nop, your opponent is floating a 2, or wear//tear in the worst case. You have to start casting CMC 3 and 4 to try to turn this game around: CJ, Mentor, Jace, and EE with funny CMC.
People have escaped early CounterTop lock in the mirror; it's not easy, but it can be done. To achieve that, try casting CMC 3, 4, or 7 as the first spell, your opponent might just mess up Top manipulation to give you a chance to Red Blast that CB. It's simply worse when you don't have 4 as an option.
the deck looks totally fun to play, I watched him on cardkingdom and was chucking when I saw the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
Jace is a magic card. Magic cards can be good. Hence Jace is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Disregarding the argument that insant speed based sb games (Snapcaster and REB, often) makes Jace less attractive, due to predict being in the picture, is just... A false argument. Of course we have to take the rest of the deck into consideration.
I expect Predict, if I'm playing the mirror, unless I see something that makes it less likely; That is often a Karakas or something like that.
Card quantify matters so little in sideboard games, due to everyone having so many answers.
Also; I'd rather have Mentor (or actual Predict!) if we had a fight, rather than Jace. Sure, Jacestorming into the nuts is excellent. Jacestorming into ponder, top, land, rather than Cspell, Snap, REB is just as likely, and leaves you seriously week to opposing Snapcaster for Pyro.
I don't have Wear/Tear post board, and I don't play Judgement.
I am testing the list now and I feel so not comfortable with it.
No Boseiju, no Thoughseize. I always have the terror to cast SnT because I have no idea what he has in his hand.
Monastery Mentor instead is as stellar as usual
Good for him it carved its way up the top8 there
Although in the shadow of Wilson’s recent flood of accounts, trolling or not, I thought it might be worth writing a tournament report. I’m not going to mention any names of my opponents, partially since I don’t remember most of them, and also since I beat most of them and might highlight some misplays and I don’t want to be mean on the internet.
So I went to Paris last weekend.
Before I went there I wasn’t sure what list to play, or even what deck to play, I was bouncing miracles ideas with some friends on facebook, but I also had a mostly foil ANT deck with fbb duals ready that could have a bad influence on my decision. So naturally I joined the Legacy Challenge on MTGO for October and picked a deck almost at random, and the 1:st place I got there managed to convince me that well, miracles is a great deck. I then convinced Anders Thiesen to try out my latest list, and after a lot of interesting discussions I had a list set for the european Eternal Weekend.
The first magic was played on friday, they hosted two last minute 6 round trials the day before the main event.
Round 1. I play against a french guy on infect, he says he only really plays in the bigger events and no weeklies or such, and that showed on some smaller mistakes here and there. I won 2-0. I side boarded out my forces and counterbalances and then grinded more in game 2.
1-0 matches. 2-0 games.
Round 2. I get to play a miracles mirror, I feel confidant in the matchup after grinding it a ton online lately. I managed to steal game 1 and after sideboarding he tells me that I get to be on the play for game 2, I say ok and expect a grindy game where the opponent will try to capitalize on the 1 extra card, I lead on turn 1 top, pass the turn. He plays a fetch and I expect him to pass the turn, but instead he fetches and cast ponder (shuffles), on my 2:nd turn I stop to think for a while, like, how could he put me on the play and then be greedy enough not to pass with blast mana up? I end up deciding to jam a counterbalance since I know that the only way he I get punished is if he forces, untaps and play CB and then have a blind 1 on top (I have a blast in hand). He has nothing and the game is over.
2-0 matches. 4-0 games.
Round 3. I sit down and quickly get killed by infect after drawing only 1 white card in total in the top 20 or so cards. Shuffle up for game 2. In game 2 I get into an interesting position where I have a top in play, a swords to plowshares & a pyroblast as well as some other slower cards in hand, but only 1 island, 1 mountain, 1 scalding tarn as my lands in play. His first attack was for 6 infect (glistener elf + invigorate + exalted) the previous turn, and then I chose not to crack my fetch for a mid combat stp, but wait until eot, and that’s when I first used top and saw my terminus, I can’t remember why I didn’t cast terminus on my own turn, but I would guess it was to play around spell pierce (play my 3:rd land first). So I play a land and pass back to him, and in his upkeep I decide to tap top to draw terminus, he uses a stifle on my top activation, and I chose not to blast it (I can still use stp if he forces me to before dmg, and otherwise cast terminus in my turn), he attacks me for another 2 infect (up to 8), and then plays a inkmoth nexus that completely destroys my plans. I go to my turn and cast terminus in draw step, but since I still lack the 2:nd white I feel like a fool to put myself in a position like this where I had 2 white spells but now made myself have to cast them during the same turn. I use 1 of my two lands to top and I don’t see a white source, so I pass back, he goes for a EOT crop rotation for Pendelhaven and kills me. After the game a bystander asks me if it really was wise to board out force of will since I died with slower cards in hand (like counterspell), I just say that 1 game is not a fair representation of how the matchup is, and that in general I have been happy with it.
2-1 matches. 4-2 games.
Round 4. I play against Punishing Jund. At one point in game 1 he has a Liliana on 1 counter, and I have a monastery mentor and a top on top, and we are both hellbent so he needs to draw a removal spell, and he topdecks a 2:nd liliana for the win. In game two I get into a position where he has 3 duals, a deathrite (with only 1 land in a gy), and a dark confidant. I have both a terminus and a entreat on top, and a blood moon in hand, but I can’t for the life of me find a basic plains (already have a island) so I just get to sit there while he plays more random duals and permanents, and watch a easy win disappear.
2-2 matches. 4-4 games.
Round 5. I don’t feel to happy about the two recent rounds, but I know it’s not big deal, you win some you lose some. This round I manages to play against someone who isn’t french, he is instead from poland, and playing infect. I can’t remember to much, but I win 2-0.
3-2 matches. 6-4 games.
At this point I decide to drop since you needed a 5-1 record to win any byes and a 2:nd trial is starting.
Round 1. I play against a strange BUG deck, it looks like and feels like a shardless deck but without any shardless agent, instead he is playing dazes. I think the matchup should be really great, but things don’t align properly and I lose 0-2 somehow.
Round 2. Up until this point I have been really unimpressed by my opponents, I have seen a lot of strange plays (for example one infect player once cast berserk, keep priority cast invigorate against me when I represented flusterstorm mana), but this is where things turn around. I get seated on the bottom table, and my opponent for the round is what I still think is the best player I get to play against all weekend, a guy I have talked to some on facebook, a winner of a previous Bazaar of Moxen Legacy Event, and the owner a really nice looking all foil miracles deck with beta duals. He says that he lost to esper stoneblade in the previous round, a normally great matchup, but sometimes things don’t go as planned. This was the most fun match of the day but sadly I lose 1-2 in the end, in game 3 I keep a super greedy hand consisting of: Volcanic Island, Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Brainstorm, Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage, Counterbalance, and he then flusterstorms my turn 2 brainstorm and the game is pretty much over at that point since I miss land drops until turn 4-5 somewhere.
I drop, leave the event, buys pizza, goes back to the hotel and sleeps.
Saturday. Main Event. Since I didn’t win any byes yesterday I have to go up early and fight from the first round.
Round 1. Shardless. My opponent leads with a bayou into deathrite shaman and I think “This game is over”. A few turns later that is confirmed to be true and we go to game 2, I board in 11 cards, and while I don’t remember much let’s just say that it didn’t get any closer post board.
1-0 matches. 2-0 games.
Round 2. UR Delver. In game 1 my opponent at one point overextends quite early by playing a third creature, I don’t have a top in play or anything though. He passes to me and I think “It would be really good to draw a terminus here”, I of course do draw the card, he has no force and I then establishes a counterbalance lock within a few more turns before he can get back into the game. In game 2 we play a close game where he draws no burn in the first 20 or so cards, and then manages to get me down to 1. I clean up the board, and I have a monastery mentor and enough tokens to present lethal as I pass the turn, I brainstormed during my last turn but still didn’t find anything to protect myself with, on his last draw step he topdecks a lightning bolt and we go to game 3. In game 3 he gets an early advantage and at one point I’m looking at a monastery swiftspear, a pyrostatic pillar, and he is casting a null rod, I’m at a fairly low life total, like 9, my hand has almost nothing (a brainstorm or something), and in play I have a top a fetch and some tapped lands, in response to the null rod I tap my top to draw a cards (so that I can later crack a fetch to shuffle it away), I draw a wear // tear. I go to my turn, kill both his problematic non creature permanents, a judge gets called since my opponent wants the pyrostatic pillar to trigger twice of the fused spell, I then cast my top again and use it to see a removal spell and a counterbalance and proceed to win the game a few turns later.
2-0 matches. 4-1 games.
Round 3. Miracles. I win the first game while making small talk to my opponent, he has apparently won a trial in another city somewhere and is now playing his first round on magic (2 byes). While shuffling for game 2 I ask him if he has played the mirror much, and he responds that this is his second time but he won the previous match. I tell him that this is my 42nd time in just the last few months. I then mulligan to 5 in game 2 and he slams a early counterbalance while I have nothing in hand (like both my 2 post board terminus and a snapcaster + Clique). And then to no one's surprise I won the game 3 when I kept 7 cards.
3-0 matches. 6-2 games.
Round 4. UR Delver again. This time I’m playing against a danish guy. I win game 1. And then in game two I manages to stabilize, he has two monastery swiftspears in play with me at 7 or so life, but is otherwise on topdecking mode, and I cast a counterbalance on my previous turn with a top in play and with the knowledge that I can use a snapcaster to flashback my swords to plowshares on one of his creatures next turn, I also have like 4 other cards in hand. He then topdecks a pyrostatic pillar and I don’t have a 2 on top (I’m tapped out), he wins the game of the card while admitting that it was probably his only out or at least one of his few (it’s possible a sulfuric vortex would have done it as well, but I had a w//t in my graveyard that I could have potentially flashed back). In game 3 I open with a hand on 2-3 lands, counterbalance, top, swords to plowshares, something else like ponder or snapcaster. I win that game without going below 17 life.
4-0 matches. 8-3 games.
Round 5. I’m now seated at table 1. My opponent plays a turn one deathrite shaman, and soon after that confirms what I was hoping which is that he is on shardless BUG. At one point he overextends and plays 3 or 4 creatures when I have nothing but lands in play, I cast a EoT brainstorm (this is like my first or 2:nd spell of the game), put back a terminus that I had in my opening hand as well as a 2:nd one that I drew of the brainstorm. I untap, draw and cast terminus and he didn’t even have a force of will. I later finds a monastery mentor and a counterbalance in the same turn, play them both, pass to his turn, and reveal a land that I put on top to counter his ancestral visions, I win game 1. While shuffling for game 2 I ask him if he has played against any more miracles, and he says that he played two miracles matches previously in this tournament but that I’m much better than they were. This gets confirmed when I win game 2 in a fairly one sided fashion.
5-0 matches. 10-3 games. At this point I’m talking to two of my friends who I have both managed to convince to play what is basically the same list as me, or at least the first 73 cards including the entire main deck. All 3 of us are at 5-0.
Round 6. I get to play on camera. I haven’t seen the coverage of this match myself, but it’s out there somewhere on twitch. In game 1 I manages to get a Clique into play early and see his hand as well as start attacking him, I then cast a counterbalance with a 1 on top with a hand of 2x force of will, 1 other blue card, x random white junk. My opponent starts of with a cabal therapy (countered) 2x cabal rituals and then a infernal tutor, I do some math and get to the conclusion that if he has a tendrils in hand and I counter this infernal I’m dead to him just playing stuff that I know about (like petal petal tendrils or something, can’t remember the details), and if he has no tendrils in hand then this won’t do anything but be potential bait for force of will, so I let it resolve and he did in fact find a tendrils of agony, he reveals it and searches for a 2:nd one and then plays them both and I die. In game 2 I quickly kill him after blasting a early cantrip and then playing a mentor with force backup to present a 2 turn clock while he is still missing land drops. In game 3 it gets a lot more interesting, and I’m not going to write it all out here. But in the end I win with Vendilion Clique beatdown. He congratulates me for the win, admits a bit bitterly that this is his first loss to miracles in a long time and that he has seen my stream on twitch.
6-0 matches. 12-4 games.
Round 7. I get paired down against a 16 pointer (5-0-1) on table 3 after having had the king of the hill position on table 1 for 2 rounds in a row. This is the same guy as from last round the day before. We play 3 fairly long and close games of the miracles mirror. I remind him multiple times to play faster and that none of us would benefit from a draw, in the end we go to time in round 3, we both have a monastery mentor, a top and several tokens in play, and a terminus in our top 3 cards, and no one can win in time. He asks me if I think that it’s better if one of us won instead of a draw, I agree that there would be more points distributed in between us if one did win, but that I’m not going to concede to him. He thinks for a while and then sign the match slip 2-0 for me. I thank him and wishes him the best of luck for the next two rounds, we both hoping that if he wins them both he can get into the top 8 at 7-1-1. I now know that I’m locked for top 8 if I can get two intentional drawn in the next two rounds.
7-0 matches. 13-5 real games.
Round 8. I get paired against Anders Thiesen, we are the only players at 7-0. We decide to ID and then go out for some food.
Round 9. I get paired against a guy at 7-1 on table 2. He offers me a ID and I accept, I see that Anders does the same on table 1. I spent quite some time looking at the standings before this and I know that I’m locked and that the guy I’ll draw with will be locked based on good tie breakers, but I also see that table 3 (both 7-1) does the same, and I can’t help but think that there is a high risk that one or both of them just drew themselves out of top 8, since there are some lower tables where there are players playing what they think is a win and in to get to the same amount of points as table 3, but with potentially better breakers.
Top 8. I look around and have no idea what anyone else but Anders is playing.
Round 10. I sit down against yet another french guy, he calls me the miracles master and I admit that he has an advantage since I have no idea what he is playing. I keep: island, force, force, snapcaster, ponder, predict, top. I’m on the play since I was 3:rd after the swiss. I lead with top, he does the same on his turn and I realize that it’s the mirror. On my turn 2 I draw a basic plains, so I don’t play my ponder but instead pass the turn, he tries to cast a counterbalance, I have already thought about the play and I immediately force pitching snapcaster, he forces back after some thoughts on what to pitch, and I force back yet again pitching ponder leaving me with only a lonely predict as my only card in hand. I tried to rebuild again by playing predict to draw two more cards next turn, and we play some draw go but he finds another counterbalance before I do and then win game 1. We sideboard for game 2. In game 2 I miss a few land drops (I hit the first 3 or 4 or something), but then stabilizes with multiple blasts, and kill him with snapcaster beatdown. In game 3 neither of us has a top, and we play land go for the first 6 or so turns, neither wants to start a fight on their own turn, and we both rather discard to hand size once (I discard a terminus and he a monastery mentor), I even have the option of both counterbalance and monastery mentor with like 7 lands in play but I decline the temptation and pass the turn, I finally manages to find a few brainstorms and snapcasters and start generating value in his end step. At one point I go: In your EoT, cast brainstorm, cast predict, everything resolves, cast another brainstorm, cast another predict, everything resolves, fetch, use top. Go into my turn, draw a 9:th card into my hand, I didn’t find a land to play, I cast counterbalance, he casts counterspell, I cast pyroblast, not because I like to fight over my spells but because I would otherwise have to discard to hand size, he counters that with something. I pass to him. On his turn he tries to cast a counterbalance and we fight over it, since I had to tap 3 mana on my turn I only have 3 more counterspells of various kinds instead of 4, but it’s barely enough to stop him, I then untap with like 2x snapcaster, flusterstorm in hand, and the game starts looking really good for me. And a few turns later during my end step he tapes his top and then casts a venser and wants to bource his tapped top, he also has a karakas in play, I have the option to force it but I’m fine with him using 6 mana to draw 1 card. After that I get to hard cast my Force of Will during his end step and then I really feel like I’m winning the game, I untap with a hand of counterbalance and monastery mentor, I attack with my two snapcasters, he blocks one with venser and then bounces his own venser, and I then play mentor followed by counterbalance as my first real proactive threats on my own turn instead of just playing during his end step. On his turn he tries starts digging for answers and then passes the turn, he tries to cast a terminus in my upkeep, I cast my last card in hand, brainstorm, trigger mentor, and draw into counterspell, counterbalance, land, I put back my counterbalance and land, I counter his terminus with a 2 on top, trigger mentor, then draw counterbalance and play it, trigger mentor, then attack him down to 1. On his turn he desperately tries to dig for answers once again and then dies. It’s unfortunate that this match wasn’t on camera.
15-6 games.
Round 11. I play against BR reanimator. Before we start our match I’m offered a price split by the 3 other players in the top 4, and I accept it without knowing what deck any of them are playing. I lose game 1 against the reanimator deck, I needed some lucky blind flips on my counterbalance that I cast on turn 2 on the play, but I found nothing. I then win game 2 with surgical into counterbalance and also by using a tear to kill his sneak attack, and in game 3 I keep a hand of: Flusterstorm, Flusterstorm, Volcanic Island, Ponder, Counterbalance, Top, X (Clique or Brainstorm or something, can’t remember). It turns out that he has a hand that can play 2 reanimation spells on turn 2 with a red elemental blast to back them up and with enough mana to pay for a flusterstorm on the first one, so I die and would still have died even if I also had a force of will. Well well.
16-8 games.
3:rd place.
This is the list I played:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
4 Island
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Counterbalance
Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Blood Moon
1 From the Ashes
2 Wear // Tear
1 Council's Judgment
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mountain
Then during the Sunday's 6 round event I decided that miracles is way to good, and instead I borrowed my friend's grixis tezzerator deck and got go beat manaless dredge after first mulliganing to two in both game 2 & 3. Leyline of the Void is a fair magic card. Finished 4-2 there but that's another story for another time.
Dadgummit why am I getting blamed for the newbies in this thread. Regardless, nice finish in spite of handicapping yourself with 3 Terminus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by It Is Unfair
Thanks so much for your tournament report and congratulations on your 3rd place finish!
Looking at your list, I want to ask you why you made some of the choices you did.
For the main, what made you want to run a single Vendilion Clique? Normally creature removal is bad against miracles so I would think that minimizing creatures would be the goal. I do know that running 3 mentors has become the norm, but they seem like a special exception.
Also, did you at anytime miss the 4th Terminus?
For your SB, how often did you bring in From the Ashes? I've been wondering about the card because unlike Moon, it can be countered by warping wail and it is a 1 time effect.
Looking back, is there anything you would've changed from the main or the side?
Thanks!
Vendilion Clique is a great card. I believe that blanking the opposing removal is a fairly dead concept at this point, the most common removal spells are abrupt decay and lightning bolt which both already have other good targets against us and they could also just brainstorm dead removal back, in the end I'm actually quite happy about trading 1 for 1 after getting the etb trigger in their end step. At first this spot was a Spell Snare, during the mtgo legacy challenge, another fairly good card. This can be seen as the extra blue spot that would otherwise be the 4:th terminus, and I believe that Vendilion Clique works well as both a bonus card for the mirrors and other non creature deck, and I'm also not to unhappy with just trading it off against a delver if I need to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misersoneof
The 3 Terminus was a result of a lot of testing and discussions. The idea behind it was that in matchups where it's bad with white cards, like the mirror or combo, I wanted as much blue as possible, and against most creature decks I didn't need all the removal, but I could win with less assuming the other cards I draw instead weren't dead weight, for example I felt that I often wanted to cut 1 stp or 1 terminus post board against shardless anyways. The card wasn't cut because it was bad, no terminus is amazing and I could absolutely see 4 being better than 3, but I have played a lot with only 3 recently and I keep winning against the creature decks, and even when I lose it's rarely because the lack of terminus. It could be considered a metagame decision, for example in a world where elves is the biggest deck I wouldn't do this, but the most common creature decks are delver and those have fairly low creature counts and rarely overextend past snapcaster + stp range. Or rather, it all depends on how you look at it, if you default to 3 or 4, I do think that the 4:th terminus is a meta game decision and that the current meta game don't require me to go that far. If that makes any sense.
Keep in mind that I absolutely wanted this list to be a mirror killer list. I wanted to be happy and to fall back comfortably in my chair if my opponents opened on basic plains + sensei's divining top, or bayou + deathrite.
Regarding From the Ashes. I personally didn't board it in that often considering the matchups I got in this event, but the two friends I had put on the same list managed to play against both eldrazi and lands multiple times and I think they were happy with it there, I did board it in against both my shardless opponents, but it didn't change much because at the points that I drew it I was already winning by a ton through other means.
I can't say I would change anything yet, I know that I'm low on graveyard hate, but it's also the effect that I have found with testing (I record every match I play in a google spreadsheet) that I board in the least often. I do have the Swedish Nationals coming up in two weeks and it's possible that I will play a different list there if anything. I'm probably going to play a lot on mtgo in the next few days, possibly stream some, and that might change my list.
During the friday I played the exact same 75 that Anders did (who also got top 8), but the morning of the main event I decided to change 2 cards in the sideboard. -1 EE +1 W//T -1 Containment Priest +1 Vendilion Clique. It's possible I'll try to play around with those kinds of changes, but in general I think those cards fill a similar role.
Wow, was Wilson responsible for all those accounts?Quote:
Originally Posted by It Is Unfair