http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21382&iddeck=163888
3 List's without Predict ;)
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http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21382&iddeck=163888
3 List's without Predict ;)
Predict is a great card where Jace divides between beeing bad (either too slow or just a suicidal drop) or being stellar.
Predict is always good while Jace has a huge variance.
Card advantage is still where this deck wants to be
Lists matters but what matters more is what you are paired up against. I had a tournament this last weekend and I faced chalice of the void in 5/8 matches. I would take any respected list of miracles over my own had I known I would play these matchups. Do I regret playing my list? Not at all.
Where's Predict in Eli Kassis Nahiri Miracles? Where's Predict in Phillip Braverman Mentor Miracles? Come on, do the homework. Please don't use NA EW as an example, that Miller guy didn't know what he was doing, just watch some recordings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
When interpreting results from Europe, how well do we know about these European players? To my knowledge, Vlcek, Cadei, Schoenegger, and sure throw Dudogan's name in there do carry more weight. Last time I check, Vlcek and Cadei aren't running Predict. Now if they change their mind again, please show me their newest lists, I am certainly open to reassessment. Dudogan ran 1 Predict, and he also ran Venser Karakas. The 2 Predict build usually features 2 Mentors, but Das was running 2 Entreat and 0 Mentors MD, he has to explain that one, too meta for me to understand. Sounds like clinging onto that specific build is the real bias to me.
A lot of posters here are familiar with my opinion regarding Predict, but I'm going to say it anyways. Just because Predict is a card that shows up in a lot of lists does not mean it's optimal or very good. The core Miracles engine is so inherently powerful that you can afford to play suboptimal cards and not get punished. For example, I could easily play Portent, Fact or Fiction or even Divination in the Predict slot and be a favourite to do well at a given 1k tournament. There are corner cases where Predict can be solid, like in the mirror preboard where it's handy to mill a white removal card to draw into relevant blue cards, but overall it's just not necessary and not inherently powerful. Miracles has never been a traditional blue control deck that relies on strict card advantage and that's why cards like Predict are in my opinion, fluff.
the mirror is one the most common matchup and to be able to have both more cards in hand and to be able to mill his sculpt top deck can be priceless in certain situations.
Sure, nothing is as good as Pyroblast anyway
I went 1-3 at a GPT still trying to prepare for Chiba. I have been really out of practice because of work so I am not shocked that I did so poorly.
I played:
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
4 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
SIDEBOARD
1 Blood Moon
2 Vendilion Clique
1 From the Ashes
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Flusterstorm
1 Mountain
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear / Tear
Round 1 I played Tin Fins. Game 1 he had an early liliana but he ultimates her when I have a counterbalance, and top out. He separates me from all but 1 my lands but it isn't enough and I find mentor him out. Game 2 he has the combo too fast for me to do anything. Game 3 I misplay when I attempt to surgical out Griselbrand while he fetches. I miscounted his mana and he has enough to Shallow Grave. I asked him that if I had waited to play surgical in response to the shallow grave what would he have done and his fallback was playing a true-name nemesis and beating me to death but since there was very little time left I think it probably would have ended in a tie anyway unless if found a mentor.
Round 2 Eldrazi. Not the same guy I played R2 in my last GPT but the result was the same. He ranched me 2 games to nothing. Game 1 he continued to pressure me while I proceeded to not find a single terminus. In game 2 I lost to beats despite top decking a timely terminus. He was able to cast the new Ulamog and destroy two of my lands stranding my Ashes in my hand.
I literally cannot ever beat this matchup in paper. I have yet to win 1 single game. I'll take any advice I can get but this deck has become Joker to my batman.
Round 3 I get a reprieve and face off with a mono blue Vedalken Shackles deck. I was not aware that activating the shackles before combat effectively made a creature summoning sick but now I know. I beat him 2-0 so there isn't much to tell.
Round 4 I played a Jeskai Stoneblade deck with the miracles package of balance + top and terminus in the board. Game 1 we each played T1 top, T2 Balance but I won by sneaking a mentor in on T3. Game 2 I landed a mentor and made a bunch of monks while he had a batterskull and Gideon in play. I over extended and he terminused. I tried to predict the terminus away on top of his library but he had double force up. A turn later he killed me with his second batterskull and 2/2 tokens. Time was called in the middle of our game 3 and I decided to drop and give him the match because I was tired and hungry.
I feel like my list is pretty solid. The SB might need some tweaking but more importantly I need to do some more practicing before the GP in 2 weeks.
I never really cared for predict, my playstyle drives me to want to run standstill.
Card advantage that they most likely will not interact with, if they go to break it you will probably be countering whatever spell. Gives you a lot of time to sculpt a good hand. I see no negative to running this card.
on empty board, yeah, if opponent has even a single Delver, Standstill will just stick in your hand
Anyway Predict is instant speed and nets you only 1 less card.
In my opinion it's just a great card and I am playing 3.
I am trying a Jaceless version with 2 Entreat and 2 Mentor and 3 Terminus
Very happy with it. You just have to be more careful with Brainstorm
Yes, sometimes cards do not matter. For example, vs Stoneblade, you can have CB Top Terminus and literal anything and still win. In other matchups, it is debatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyp3r1on
I think argumenting over what to fill a flexslot with even if it's a predict, spell snare or counterspell is redundant. I don't believe that it in any case overshadows being comfortable and well-versed with your own list. Lately there have been quite different lists top8'ing the same events and that just tells me that predict or no predict might not be the deciding factor. I think that if you just don't like the card or how it plays then it's a valid enough reason to not run it.
Anyways, is there anyone here going to MKM Prague in November who might want to talk some meta and strategy before the event?
Had some fun on magic online yesterday and managed a 4-1 record with the pile below.
CREATURES (4)
4 Squadron Hawk
ENCHANTMENTS (6)
4 Counterbalance
2 Moat
SORCERIES (8)
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
INSTANTS (16)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Predict
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (20)
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
4 Island
SIDEBOARD (15)
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Disenchant
The deck is based on the idea that I want to have a better chance against Eldrazi/Merfolk preboard and therefore I play Moat. It's hard to keep up 1-for-1 all of their treaths, especially if Chalice of the Void stops swords to plowshares. Eldrazi/merfolk are both very uninteractive so if we have something like Moat they can do very little to stop it (unless they kill us first). There are other options like Ensnaring Bridge and Humility which each have their strenght and weaknesses. I'm not arguing that Moat is better but it made deckbuilding an intresting puzzle for me.
I hate to play creatures that are unable to attack because I have a Moat in play so both Snapcaster Mage and Monastery mentor became big no-nos. There are a couple of decent fliers in legacy but none of them give you the value of Hawk-storm and I kind of miss the caw-blade era so... Plus, I just want to Terminus my Hawks all day :~)
Without Snapcaster Mage we have more options regarding graveyard hate. Rest in Peace is clearly the most powerful piece of graveyard hate there is but I'm not sure if it's what we currently need. Against B/R reanimator Surgical Extraction is probably better since it's faster but I'm testing Rest in Peace for now. I also upped to 3 pieces of GY-hate in the form of Relic of Progenitus which should provide some nice utility vs Gurmag Angler, Snapcaster Mage, Deathrite Shaman etc aswell as Reanimator, Dredge, Lands.
The rest of the deck is pretty much the same except I got greedy and cut a land. Feel free to comment. I will probably stream some matches in the near future.
and in a Jace/Moat centered list you don't find the room for 2 Entreat?
I also tried the hawk idea with the following list:
Maindeck:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Squadron Hawk
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Volcanic Island
1 Counterspell
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat
1 Council's Judgment
1 Spell Snare
Sideboard
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 From the Ashes
1 Ruination
2 Wear/Tear
2 Flusterstorm
1 Containment Priest
1 Mountain
1 Engineered Explosives
I also ended up 4-1 with it.
Hey guys, for several weeks, I'm testing a Lightning Mentor list that might surprise you, but please, keep open-minded and constructive.
I'm starting from the fact (for what I see) that the meta goes a bit faster. What I mean is not a meta full of turn 2 or turn 3 kill, but rather a faster board presence, board pressure. From this edge, the classic Miracle is really weak in these first turn (almost only doing land drop and/or Ponder) and the main strategy is to survive, then take control and finish the game. Miracle deck has already adapted a bit by playing less Jace (or not at all), and more cantrips (Predict in this case).
But I’m asking if this is enough, and if the deck can even be more optimized. With Jace gone (or almost gone) of the 75, the second card than is super-slow or need super-setup is Terminus. And recently, some results show Miracle list with only 3 Terminus. So the question is, does Terminus is still the best removal considering the «*board speed*» I spoke earlier. In the early turn, setting up Terminus requiert spending ressource while a burn spell do the job as well while not needing any settup or additional ressource. In the mid or late game, CounterTop and Swords are generally enough to keep control and not being overhelmed. It’s also good to notice (I speak for my case) that I’m always searching to get the most value of Terminus by casting it for more than one creature. But lot of time, that mean I will not Terminus on a single Shaman, and this leave my opponent to get value from it by playing more spell etc. With a burn spell, I’m never waiting to get more value of Sudden Shock, because it will not do more later. Another good point is that these burn spells work very well with Snapcaster, while Terminus doesn't. I have sometime also burned a Liliana or two, and even Jace after returning a Mentor into my hand.
With the rise of Predict (in my case I’m using Impulse instead), the deck has more tools to dig into the library, mainly to search for an appropriate response at a given time. Predict is not particularly good to set-up a Terminus (nor Impulse), but they are instead very good at digging and searching for an answer.
From that situation, I removed completely Terminus and put instead some burn spell that act as «*soft*» removal. I tested Lightning Bolt, Sudden Shock and Pyroclasm. Among the three, I think it’s Sudden Shock that gives the most interesting results, especially against Mother of Rune and to a lesser extend, Shaman. Pyroclasm was also huge, but being at sorcery speed isn't very great. So I’m still doing testing online with Sudden Shock, Splitsecond is very strong lot of time, and being 2cmc leave an answer to fight trough Chalice @1.
I don't know yet if this a better or worse route to go, but what I can say is that the deck is still performing very well with the Death & Taxes and BUG Cascade matchup going better favored. Giving much more power to Snapcaster to remove they creatures and/or Liliana is a real deal. I also feel the deck being a bit faster, especially with Mentor.
Tell me what do you think about this. Thank you.
For information, this is the list I was playing online and I'm speaking about :
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sudden Shock
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Impulse
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Wear // Tear
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rest in Peace
3 Flex Slot
At the moment, I'm playing Ensnaring Bridge to fight big-creatures decks, but I'm not yet sure. May be more Pyroclast/Flusterstorm, Surgical, Vendilion Clique, Blood Moon etc... Still thinking about these 3 slots.
It's not Miracles anymore then. It's UWR Counter Top?
it is definatly in the school of Miracles, as there are about 3 cards different from the decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
I would play Spell Snare over Spell Pierce; Tags Counterbalance, Chalice at all points in the game. Tags goyf, Snap as well as YP also.
Obviously weaker against planeswalkers (and sneak and show), but they don't really have a strong place in the meta lately, anyhow.
Impulse is inferior to Predict. Nothing else to say, really. With 4 top, 4 ponder, 4 brainstorm (and to some extent 4 counterbalance), you can set up super reliable anyhow. It's also the best answer to Cabal therapy (and hymn) as it recoups card quantity like nothing else.
I do like Sudden Shock, but you list is INSANELY soft to Eldrazi.
Yeah, more or less it's not strictly Miracle because there is no more any Miracle trigger in the list. It's still very close to the standard 75 Miracle list, and I post my thought here because it's a work in progress about the possible evolution of standard Miracle.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Spell Snare is a great counter. Actually I was playing it before, and choose to switch to Spell Pierce, but Pierce goes down in power while the game goes long, where Snare doesn't. You are probably be right about Snare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
About Predict vs Impulse, honestly I dont think Impulse is inferior to Predict. The two spells just dont do the same thing. Predict can give CA with a set-up that might come from lot of way (CB trigger, Top, Cantrip, Delver trigger, and so...), but without this information, it's just a one for one card. Impulse can't give any CA, but rather a very strong CQ (card quality), going deeper in the library and giving to chose from 4 card is huge. But it's maybe just a personal preference.
Last thing but not least, it's true the list "as is" is *really* soft to Eldrazi. With only 4 outs for they creatures, it's though !
I was thinking of filling the 3 Flex slots remaining with tools to help this specific matchup. Ensnaring Bridge comes at first in mind, but I dont know if a combinaison of Back to Basics/Blood Moon/From the Ashes is a viable option to fight Eldrazi.
" Predict is not particularly good to set-up a Terminus "
Yes it is. You just put Terminus second from the top.
[QUOTE=JohnBell;977084]Rest in Peace IMHO is very bad with Snapcaster Mage, and the recursion Surgical/Snapcaster is very powerful.
Now I'm trying this list:
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
4 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
3 Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Wear // Tear
2 Containment Priest
1 Surgical Extraction
A few of things about this list:
1) I would consider running Predict in the main. When your other 1 CMC draw spells get turned off by Chalice of the Void, having Predict allows you to burn through more cards in order to find your answers.
2) Regarding Izzet Staticaster: this slot would be better served as a Kozilek's Return. Reason being: Sanctum Prelate has 2 toughness and that card is a direct threat to us resolving Terminus.
3) 2 Containment Priest is 1 too many. In fact it might be 2 too many. The card is not super effective against Death and Taxes post board. Post board we need to be focusing on stopping cards like Cataclysm and now the growing popularity of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Between Engineered Explosives, Force of Will, and Wear//Tear, we should have plenty of answers to AEther Vial.
4) 20 lands without the 21's land in the sideboard means deck like Grixis Delver and Death and Taxes will have a much easier time mana screwing you. If you don't play an extra land in the sideboard, consider adding it to the maindeck. I like having access to a Basic Mountain against Wasteland decks when I'm playing with Engineered Explosives and Kozilek's Command.
5) Surgical Extraction is your best way to fight against Lands. Consider adding more copies.
6) Combo decks are on the decline. 3 Vendilion Clique and 3 Flusterstorm might be a little overkill.