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I knew I've seen that tech before. I'm with Ozy on this one. I think Furystoke Giant seems to be a better option (not that I use it in my 75) if you want to go around moat, peacekeepers, blazing archons, and propaganda effects since you don't need other spells to make it work.
Although why not Angel of Despair which kills both Emrakul, Moat and any junk that they play? If they have EE in play before Dread Return, Vengeance won't work either since they'll pop in response to DR on the stack.
I guess the only benefit of playing Vengeance is it gets past Humility and EE post-zombie phase.
They would just kill all your Zombies with EE/Deed in response to Stalking Vengeance. If you're deep enough in your graveyard to hit your singleton DR target anyway, you've got a loaded graveyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Because "they" being everyone who plays Legacy?
I'd like to ask some questions as I've been lightly playtesting and casually playing Dredge, but I'd be interested in everyone's input. If possible, can the guide Parcher wrote on the first page be updated with the latest developments?
1) What's your current take on the LED vs. Tireless Tribe debate? I know, it's speed versus consistency, but what's the current thoughts? The most recent 3rd place Dredge deck (in Europe) ran LED-less. This could be a result of budget though.
2) Is it possible and functional to run Tireless Tribe and Lion's Eye Diamond along with Putrid Imp in the same deck? I haven't tried it, but have thought about it for a while. Seems like a lot of unnecessary additional discard.
3) Steve Menedian argued fairly convincingly that Dredge should be considered a Deck To Beat because of its speed and explosiveness, but should not be a Deck That Wins because it hasn't consistently placed in the top 8 of any reported tournaments on SCG or DeckCheck.org. Has anyone had any non-anecdotal evidence to the contrary I might be missing? The most recent collection of Dredge winnings indicate that none of them have placed higher than 3rd place in the past three months (in Europe).
4) I know Parcher recommended Stalking Vengeance which could be a serious suggestion or not. I see the potential of the card choice, but I'm curious that if it is a serious suggestion, what's the current decklist suggested to support it?
5) How necessary is Unmask, Eternal Witness, and Firestorm in the modern build against the current Decks That Win?
6) Is the turn 1 win of LED really necessary?
Stalking Vengeance is actually a pretty good alternative to FKZ seeing that if you are deep enough down to make 6 tokens + Return odds are that you also have access to that additional DR + GGT + Therapy (or Gargadon) to snuff the opponent good. Winning a turn faster and through effects that prevents attacking is probably worth the slot. Concur'd.
1) Tireless tribe is pretty much better at this point. The added resiliency is too important to sacrifice for speed. Consistency is a straw man, and is fine for LED dredge also.
2) You can, I've tried it, you mean putrid imp, at that point you probably want DA, the only good slots t cut that don't wreck your consistency are DR targets/study, and at that point why even run LED? On the other hand, you will always crush blue.
3) Dredge is going to get varianced a lot, especially with the lower amount of people playing it.
4) Normal LEDless dredge with only stalking vengeance as a DR target, 3 dread return, 4 Careful study.
5) Unmask--not necessary, Storm is a bit player. Firestorm--I really like it, and I think a few copies are crucial to give you an uncounterable discard outlet/wrath effect. Eternal Witness--wasn't even necessary in thew first place.
6) Not in the current metagame.
Stalking Vengeance is old "tech". By tech I mean not as good as Flame-Kin Zealot and discovered about two years ago in Germany.
Whoops, yeah. Thanks for catching that. I just call him PImp normally and wrote the wrong one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Thanks for the straight-forward and clear answers too. I really found them helpful.
Since you pointed out that Stalking Vengeance requires additional Cabal Therapies and Dread Returns and coupled with your own thoughts on the DR targets in your deck, I'm going to skip that addition for now. What DR targets do you typically run or would you recommend? I'm leaning towards possibly running Terastadon/Iona just for the early disruption it would lead to. (I see the increased versatility of Angel of Despair, but it seems a turn 2 Terastadon just screws up so much of the opponent's side of the board with a manageable disadvantage to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
How many would you think for the maindeck? 2? 3?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
How important is the 15 land build versus 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Cephalid Coliseum builds in the current meta? I'm presuming the two additional lands feed into the consistency position?
Would you consider this to be "Normal LEDless Dredge"? Or at least a good approximation of it?
He just made top 16 at SCG 5K San Jose with it. Looks very close to the one in your link.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dune Echo
My main problem with playing dredge is when it comes to sideboarding. Let's say you know you are facing a elf deck that is going to bring in three or four anti-gy cards, so you bring in 4 ancient grudge and maybe Iona or Ancestor's Chosen. What do you take out?
Are you on the play or draw? What DR targets do you have maindeck? Are they sure to bring in GY hate artifacts?
On the draw, no DR targets maindeck, and yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I usually side out careful studies if I'm sure that I'll be facing graveyard hate in the form of artifacts so that I can win with breakthrough after I get rid of their hate. If they have leyline or wheel of sun and moon, I side out breakthroughs so that I can use careful studies to dig for an answer.
I've been having success with a sorta strange mana base. I only play mtgo due to lack of real competitive play in my area. Having said that when I built this deck a few weeks back I just didnt have the available cash for tarnished citadels.. and the rest of the stuff I needed.. I did find Grand Collisieum at .25c rather than the 6$ tag on citadel The collisieum is obviously not a top choice here, but I found many games I dealt myself a ton of dmg just running cob`s and cephalid colisieum as dmg lands.. I thought the 6-9-12 dmg i might take from a single citadel turned me off it.
I`ve not been playing the deck for not too long (weeks) and I will test out the citadels too. I run 13 lands, +1 in sb with no LED`s thats 4x cob, gemstone mine, cephalid colisieum, and 1x grand colisieum. It seems to work for me, although I clearly understand the drawback of having a cip tapped land on turn 1, it can be relevant as a t2 or t3 play from hand.
I also realise that ideally you`d rather not see turn 3.. but lets be realistic. Through disruption, removal, or hate turn 3 is often a sad reality.
If you're bringing in Nature's Claim, I'd take out Breakthrough. While a powerful card, it causes you to overextend to some for full effect. Also, you might not draw any Claims, and you might Dredge them away when playing with Breakthrough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Hyde
And why not run any maindecked DR targets? Game one is where you get to abuse DR
with silmple no DR target led-less dredge vs elves
-4 Breakthrough
-2 Cabal Therapy
+4 Ancient Grudge
+1 Iona
+1 Ancestor's Chosen
Cutting Cabal Therapy against a combo deck is pretty hilarious.
we're talking elves here, not storm or NO/SnT where the card to call is obvious. elves CAN go off turn 2 (just like us) but it usually doesnt. Dredge is usually a full turn faster . if youre really worried about elves, u can play Chalice as a catchall for combo. just beware that since youd be setting it at 1, youll be going DDD and winning with ichorids.
edit= yes, elves does often have a natural order package in the sb, but i think the 2 remaining therapies are enough.