Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Lancer
I'm getting really tired of this (the back and forth is annoying) so I'll post a few examples.
Without any sarcasm at all I want to applaud your decision to do so. It's the first step in productive discussion on the subject.
With regards to Stasis, Jack (TheInfamousBearAssassin) and I played about 10 games last night, him playing his aforementioned Stasis/Vice deck, me playing about an even split between Team America and New Horizons. Jack won a majority of the games. My thoughts on the subject are as follows:
1. Stasis with Vice would be a pretty strong deck in the current meta, mostly because almost every tier 1 strategy in the format is based on attacking with creatures, and Stasis has a naturally strong game against that.
2. That said, it didn't really feel like Vice was what made the deck strong. In one case, Stasis won a game against New Horizons without ever casting Vice, as all 4 copies were milled by Sword of Body and Mind before they could ever be played. He won that game with a single card left in his deck by milling me out with Jace Beleren.
In almost every game, Vice was answered handily by Misstep. The only time it ever resolved, the game was already essentially locked down and won.
3. Nearly every game we played lasted about 20 minutes, or would have if we'd played them all the way through. Even with 4x Vice, the deck is very slow. I suspect it would be going to time in tournaments very frequently.
In short, I think Stasis would be a strong contender in the current metagame if it didn't take so long to win the game, but I don't think that's a problem that Vice can adequately fix, particularly as a 1-of.
When I get an opportunity I'll do some testing with both the lists you posted and give you my feedback, since anything else would be conjecture. I have a suspicion that Vice won't be particularly strong in Zoo because of its conditional nature (i.e., it's a terrible draw any turn beyond the first, and Zoo simply can't afford dead draws,) but I'm willing to eat my words on that if it happens to pan out differently in testing.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Rizso
I rather have this format then the old one.
Agree, I like the post-misstep environment rather than the pre-misstep one.
On another note if Brainstorm is banned in Legacy, I would probably just quit Magic.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
crovakiet
On another note if Brainstorm is banned in Legacy, I would probably just quit Magic.
I completely agree. I would sell my collection and go on a 3-month vacation to somewhere awesome if they did, in fact, ban Brainstorm.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Gheizen64
Yeah, i really do. Sorry.
I'm sorry for sounding like a total ass, but I cannot fathom how you can believe that Black Vise isn’t broken and conjure a deck list to prove what? That the card sucks.
I would prefer you not to post a deck list at all.
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Btw i thought it was already determined Vise sucks in Zoo, why you are bringing up a point you declared dead again? Zoo wouldn't play Vise since it's an absolutely dead card after T1 with no way to stall cards in your opponent hand.
The intent on the second list is to show how easy it is to fix Black Vise in another deck, this is why I called it thoughtless zoo.
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Originally Posted by
Zilla
Without any sarcasm at all I want to applaud your decision to do so. It's the first step in productive discussion on the subject.
I would prefer not to post a deck list because I still believe the focus changes from the card in question to the deck builder. But you are right, I need to prove why the card is broken.
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With regards to Stasis, Jack (TheInfamousBearAssassin) and I played about 10 games last night, him playing his aforementioned Stasis/Vice deck, me playing about an even split between Team America and New Horizons. Jack won a majority of the games. My thoughts on the subject are as follows:
1. Stasis with Vice would be a pretty strong deck in the current meta, mostly because almost every tier 1 strategy in the format is based on attacking with creatures, and Stasis has a naturally strong game against that.
2. That said, it didn't really feel like Vice was what made the deck strong. In one case, Stasis won a game against New Horizons without ever casting Vice, as all 4 copies were milled by Sword of Body and Mind before they could ever be played. He won that game with a single card left in his deck by milling me out with Jace Beleren.
In almost every game, Vice was answered handily by Misstep. The only time it ever resolved, the game was already essentially locked down and won.
3. Nearly every game we played lasted about 20 minutes, or would have if we'd played them all the way through. Even with 4x Vice, the deck is very slow. I suspect it would be going to time in tournaments very frequently.
In short, I think Stasis would be a strong contender in the current metagame if it didn't take so long to win the game, but I don't think that's a problem that Vice can adequately fix, particularly as a 1-of.
Thanks for your honest report.
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When I get an opportunity I'll do some testing with both the lists you posted and give you my feedback, since anything else would be conjecture. I have a suspicion that Vice won't be particularly strong in Zoo because of its conditional nature (i.e., it's a terrible draw any turn beyond the first, and Zoo simply can't afford dead draws,) but I'm willing to eat my words on that if it happens to pan out differently in testing.
Ok if you like.
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Originally Posted by
crovakiet
Agree, I like the post-misstep environment rather than the pre-misstep one.
On another note if Brainstorm is banned in Legacy, I would probably just quit Magic.
The restriction of Brainstorm made me quite playing Vintage. I wouldnt quit magic/legacy but I would cry for a week.
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Originally Posted by
Metalwalker
Are you fucking trolling us? If you think and believe this way, please stop playing this format. Talking about fetchlands/duals as if they were difficult pre-requisites/conditions is what a non-eternal player would be making a big fuss about.
Oh I'm sorry, I thought the game starts off with 7 cards and each player is allowed to play 1 land per turn.
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If you think Black Vise is too overpowered, good for you. I'll just watch Zoo players laugh when they race you with a Wild Nacatl even if they decide to not dump their hands. How is Vise.deck even going to hold a candle against NORUG/Merfolks? They dump their hand pretty fast, except they get the last laugh because they actually have a reliable source of damage output compared to Vise.
If everybody is into dumping their hands really quick then I guess nobody is playing Force of Will?
As for NORUG... Natural Order could easly follow the same fate of Survival or Flash, it really depends if Star City starts bitching or if Wizards makes better targets.
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+1 to Kikoo. That sums up what I feel about the situation of Legacy right now. Nothing's broken/overpowered, but there's the clear culprit that is pushing the winning decks to still continue to dominate. MM has really stifled previously viable decks, and if it was banned, it's not like combo is going to explode for reasons Kikoo pointed out: Spell Pierce is actually incredible at answering combo. Unlike MM, Pierce is more narrow, but that's the whole point, that the format isn't going to be a format dominated by Spell Pierce because swapping MM to Pierce post-MM ban would provide outs against combo, yet allow more decks to thrive. I don't really care if MM is banned/unbanned because it's not creating stale metagames, at least for now, but I think I prefer the meta pre-MM.
funny I didnt know Spell Pierce can fit in any deck.
I doubt Mental Misstep will be banned because it gives players a chance to respond to first turn assults and it can be turned into a dead card very quick.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I actually wasn't convinced that Black Vise was better than Ebony Owl Netsuke in testing, largely because of the Misstep issue.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
TheInfamousBearAssassin
I actually wasn't convinced that Black Vise was better than
Ebony Owl Netsuke in testing, largely because of the Misstep issue.
Vice is largely better than Netsuke in anything non-stasis however.
But yeah my impressions are similar too. It's only marginally better since when stasis get a lock costing 1 or costing 2 isn't really relevant and actually Netsuke do 1 more damage than Vise in those situations (except if you have a Jace 1.0 into play and then they do the same damage). If stasis had creatures or a way to win consistently without its lock then Vise would be superior but in a stasis shell there isn't a lot of difference between the two cards since Stasis can't actually win without the hard lock and Vise is never enough to race anything with a soft lock. Netsuke costing 2 also make the deck basically immune to Misstep and with muddle the mixture you have a tutor for both pieces of the lock.
I have to say i was impressed by stasis ability to be consistently annoying even in 2011, but there are so many cards nowadays that are so good against it like SFM, Batterskull, SoFaF, Pridemage and the like.
EDIT: Care to share a list Zilla? In my testing i still haven't found a good matchup for stasis so there's probably something that i'm doing wrong.
This is the list i'm testing now btw.
16 Island
2 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
3 Forsaken City
4 Howling Mine
3 Jace Beleren
4 Stasis
4 Propaganda
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Arcane Denial
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
4 Black Vise
2 Frozen AEther
2 Brainstorm
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I was testing against IBA's list that he posted 2 pages back. It's only a couple cards different than the list you just posted.
It's worth noting that I haven't played against Stasis in literally years, and in retrospect I lost games I should have won because I was countering some things I probably should have let resolve. Even so, TA and New Horizons aren't super threat dense. Stasis can often slow the one or two threats you land with Propaganda and bounce for long enough to get the lock pieces they need into play.
I'd say that it requires more testing (because it does) but I'd sort of rather stab myself in the dick with a pencil than do more testing against Stasis, so we'll have to see.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I gotta say, this topic looks VERY silly in todays meta having Tarmogoyf up on that list. It's funny because some people board him out in some matchups.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
I gotta say, this topic looks VERY silly in todays meta having Tarmogoyf up on that list. It's funny because some people board him out in some matchups.
I think it's actually an extremely helpful visual aid which illustrates why most calls for bans are simply unfounded. If we were to remake that poll today, almost none of the original cards would be on it. The only cards that were actually banned since that poll was made weren't even on the list.
If we remade that list today, you'd see cards like Misstep, Stoneforge Mystic, Hive Mind, and Show and Tell. And two years from now, it will almost certainly be completely different again.
With very few exceptions, the meta just needs time to adapt to the "broken" cards of the moment, or for power creep to make them irrelevant.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Zilla
With very few exceptions, the meta just needs time to adapt to the "broken" cards of the moment, or for power creep to make them irrelevant.
I don't really think power creep is something that we should just wait to make the broken cards of today outdated. I mean, I know I'm more on the side of being pro-active about banning things than some people, but if Goyf truly was broken he should have been banned. This is true regardless of whether they print another goyf that just costs G in 2 years, it doesn't mean that banning goyf when he was broken would have been a bad thing.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I would still ban Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf's also still one of the best and most played cards in the format, it's just not as obvious because people are inured to it.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Phoenix Ignition
I don't really think power creep is something that we should just wait to make the broken cards of today outdated.
I might agree with you if it weren't quite so hard to get cards off the banned list. But when a card which is seemingly broken is obviated by the printing of one more other cards within the space of a year, it seems like banning may very well be a hamfisted solution to the problem.
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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I would still ban Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf's also still one of the best and most played cards in the format, it's just not as obvious because people are inured to it.
How is "one of the best and most played" synonymous with "needs to be banned"? Swords to Plowshares is one of the best and most played cards in the format. Does it need to be banned? Ditto Force of Will. Ditto Wasteland. Ditto Mental Misstep. Who decides which "best" cards are fine and which ones should be banned?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Zilla
I might agree with you if it weren't quite so hard to get cards off the banned list. But when a card which is seemingly broken is obviated by the printing of one more other cards within the space of a year, it seems like banning may very well be a hamfisted solution to the problem.
I guess I agree here somewhat, but really hamfisting new more powerful cards is less elegant to me than just removing the ones that were problems. I mean, not having access to 20 good cards is much more preferable than having access to only a small number of good cards.
My reference in that last sentence is to how power creep really destroys what is playable. You will very rarely see any creature being played that was printed before the new borders came out, and having a much smaller pool of playable new creatures is worse than having a larger pool of somewhat good creatures.
I mean, we used to have decks that played fun things like werebear , nimble mongoose , nantuko shade ,hypnotic specter, phyrexian negator, spiritmonger, and psychatog. Those cards were significantly slower clocks and almost all of them had some sort of flavor factor to them. You'd have to actually build a deck that supported your creatures to make them good, whereas now you just throw in a goyf or 4 and you're set.
I realize that last paragraph was all personal preference, but having power creep take out all of the best cards in the format is not in my opinion a healthy thing. Printed cards that are in all functionality better make this format come closer and closer to Modern. Though I've jumped the ship onto Modern I know I wish I could play the old Legacy a few more times.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phoenix Ignition
I guess I agree here somewhat, but really hamfisting new more powerful cards is less elegant to me than just removing the ones that were problems. I mean, not having access to 20 good cards is much more preferable than having access to only a small number of good cards.
My reference in that last sentence is to how power creep really destroys what is playable. You will very rarely see any creature being played that was printed before the new borders came out, and having a much smaller pool of playable new creatures is worse than having a larger pool of somewhat good creatures.
I mean, we used to have decks that played fun things like
werebear ,
nimble mongoose ,
nantuko shade ,
hypnotic specter,
phyrexian negator,
spiritmonger, and
psychatog. Those cards were significantly slower clocks and almost all of them had some sort of flavor factor to them. You'd have to actually build a deck that supported your creatures to make them good, whereas now you just throw in a goyf or 4 and you're set.
I realize that last paragraph was all personal preference, but having power creep take out all of the best cards in the format is not in my opinion a healthy thing. Printed cards that are in all functionality better make this format come closer and closer to Modern. Though I've jumped the ship onto Modern I know I wish I could play the old Legacy a few more times.
You cannot have almost 20 years of Magic cards without new cards becoming better then older cards. For years Juzám Djinn is seen as most powerful black creature for the mana cost with the lowest drawback and now we have Abyssal Persecutor that is more powerful with the ability to fly and trample and it's drawback is easier to fix then the 1 life lose per turn as Old Djinn.
On the otherhand, most of the creatures you listed are still playable except phyrexian negator (he was only played in Type 1/Vintage). There are players that would perfer to use hypnotic specter over Vampire Nighthawk.
Modern is a sad joke. I'm not sure if the intent was to replace extended or make a budet format for younger players, the only people that Modern does hurts is Casual Legacy, Budget Legacy, EDH and Modern players because the cards are jumping in value. Adding to the joke is players assuming that modern staples will be reprinted because legacy has the reserve policy. While that might be true there is a another policy that wizards has (they dont tell us publicly ~ but it's noticeable) wizards dont reprint magic cards that exceed 40 dollars. Bob/Goyf are going to follow the same fate as Force of Will and by next year the Shock Lands will not be reprinted even though wizards announce the return of Ravnica next year, they are either going to make a newer version of dual lands or give us something like: Murmuring Bosk.
In the end players will soon realize that they can play their 'expensive' modern cards in legacy and legacy advantage is more cards. Like I said Modern is a sad joke.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lancer
You cannot have almost 20 years of Magic cards without new cards becoming better then older cards. For years Juzám Djinn is seen as most powerful black creature for the mana cost with the lowest drawback and now we have Abyssal Persecutor that is more powerful with the ability to fly and trample and it's drawback is easier to fix then the 1 life lose per turn as Old Djinn.
On the otherhand, most of the creatures you listed are still playable except phyrexian negator (he was only played in Type 1/Vintage). There are players that would perfer to use hypnotic specter over Vampire Nighthawk.
Modern is a sad joke. I'm not sure if the intent was to replace extended or make a budet format for younger players, the only people that Modern does hurts is Casual Legacy, Budget Legacy, EDH and Modern players because the cards are jumping in value. Adding to the joke is players assuming that modern staples will be reprinted because legacy has the reserve policy. While that might be true there is a another policy that wizards has (they dont tell us publicly ~ but it's noticeable) wizards dont reprint magic cards that exceed 40 dollars. Bob/Goyf are going to follow the same fate as Force of Will and by next year the Shock Lands will not be reprinted even though wizards announce the return of Ravnica next year, they are either going to make a newer version of dual lands or give us something like: Murmuring Bosk.
In the end players will soon realize that they can play their 'expensive' modern cards in legacy and legacy advantage is more cards. Like I said Modern is a sad joke.
I would not be so sure. If wizards really start to reprint powerful precons like it is rumored, this would keep the price of Modern staples down, and, in turn, also make Legacy slighly cheaper (i'm looking at you, Goyf and Jace).
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Gheizen64
I would not be so sure. If wizards really start to reprint powerful precons like it is rumored, this would keep the price of Modern staples down, and, in turn, also make Legacy slighly cheaper (i'm looking at you, Goyf and Jace).
There is no evidence that suggest they would so why assume this.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
How is "one of the best and most played" synonymous with "needs to be banned"? Swords to Plowshares is one of the best and most played cards in the format. Does it need to be banned? Ditto Force of Will. Ditto Wasteland. Ditto Mental Misstep. Who decides which "best" cards are fine and which ones should be banned?
It's actually very easy to decide which cards are fine and which ones should be banned. The ones that should be banned are the only ones that matter in actually winning prizes at a large tournament and that can't be properly answered, not now, not in the foreseeable future, because the meta can't adapt to them.
Can you adapt to Swords? Yes. Can you adapt to Wasteland? Yes. Can you adapt to Mental Misstep? Yes. Can you adapt to Brainstorm? until MM, no. Can you adapt to FoW? no, unless you don't cast spells. Therefore, Force of Will is broken, and it's so obvious for everyone not heavily invested in that card that isn't funny.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phoenix Ignition
My reference in that last sentence is to how power creep really destroys what is playable. You will very rarely see any creature being played that was printed before the new borders came out, and having a much smaller pool of playable new creatures is worse than having a larger pool of somewhat good creatures.
I think we probably agree entirely then. When I said that power creep was an answer to potentially bannable cards, I didn't mean to imply that it was a good answer; it was just a recognition of it as inevitable fact. I do hate to see formerly playable cards go the way of the dodo. That said, Wizards wants to sell cards, and one of the best ways to do it is to print ones more powerful than the ones that came before them, so that's what they're going to do.
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Originally Posted by DrJones
It's actually very easy to decide which cards are fine and which ones should be banned. The ones that should be banned are the only ones that matter in actually winning prizes at a large tournament and that can't be properly answered, not now, not in the foreseeable future, because the meta can't adapt to them.
Can you adapt to Swords? Yes. Can you adapt to Wasteland? Yes. Can you adapt to Mental Misstep? Yes. Can you adapt to Brainstorm? until MM, no. Can you adapt to FoW? no, unless you don't cast spells. Therefore, Force of Will is broken, and it's so obvious for everyone not heavily invested in that card that isn't funny.
You've been on a personal crusade to get FoW banned for forever, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I mean, the argument you've laid out here against FoW can be applied to Counterspell.
And regardless, it's a fallacious argument; you absolutely can play around Force of Will. You can pack Forces of your own, you can use Hymn/Thoughtsieze/Inquizition of Kozilek/etc. to protect your key threats, or you can simply bait FoW with a non-essential threat before playing a more essential one. Combo has been successfully playing around FoW in this format since its inception, and Legacy would be a mess without them.
There is nothing inherently unfair about trading 2 cards and 1 life for 1 card. Blue is too strong in Legacy, but Force of Will isn't the culprit.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
I think we probably agree entirely then. When I said that power creep was an answer to potentially bannable cards, I didn't mean to imply that it was a good answer; it was just a recognition of it as inevitable fact. I do hate to see formerly playable cards go the way of the dodo. That said, Wizards wants to sell cards, and one of the best ways to do it is to print ones more powerful than the ones that came before them, so that's what they're going to do.
For my part, I hope they err towards the trend they were on of printing more skill-rewarding cards like KotR and Vendillion Clique, which are bonkers in the right decks but unplayable in others and which aren't knee-jerk inclusions or "oops, I win" cards. I'm glad Tarmogoyf is approaching that status (check out Eli Kassis' report from the Star City Open he made the finals of, for instance). I hope SFM gets there too, if indeed it's not already.
I guess I agree with your previous post regarding the salience of the original poll, and while I know Wizards fucks up occasionally and could really use lessons in PR, I'm cautiously optimistic about the future of the format in this particular regard.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
coraz86
For my part, I hope they err towards the trend they were on of printing more skill-rewarding cards like KotR and Vendillion Clique, which are bonkers in the right decks but unplayable in others and which aren't knee-jerk inclusions or "oops, I win" cards.
Really good point. Power creep is inevitable, but it doesn't have to dumb things down. In the right decks, KotR and Clique are both stronger cards than Tarmogoyf, but they require much more thought to play and aren't at all splashable. I certainly don't want to see Tarmogoyf replaced by a Tarmogoyf with one more power or something.
If Wizards can hold to the trend of printing stronger cards but that require more thought and investment, I'm for it. KotR was a step in the right direction; Mental Misstep was a step in the wrong one.
